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Autor Tópico: Grécia - Tópico principal  (Lida 1845383 vezes)

Pedro.J50

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6400 em: 2015-07-02 04:23:30 »
Um artigo interessante sobre os ultimos dias das negociações.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/01/uk-eurozone-greece-negotiations-specialr-idUKKCN0PB4QN20150701

O artigo é da Reuters.
Como por vezes os links deixam de  funcionar tomo a liberdade de transcrever aqui o  texto

Special Report - How Greece went bust
July 1, 2015.
ATHENS | By Renee Maltezou, Elizabeth Pineau and Andreas Rinke .

It was a small room with a plain wooden table a few feet wide. The Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras sat on one side, along with a translator and Angela Merkel, the German chancellor. On the other sat President Francois Hollande of France; around were a handful of officials.

In this modest Brussels setting last Friday morning, key players in the great Greek debt drama tried to avert a meltdown that could threaten the future of the euro and even the European Union (EU). Merkel and Hollande made a final offer of billions of euros in aid for bankrupt Greece – if Tsipras would sign up to economic reforms demanded by his country's creditors.

The participants looked tired, their body language was stiff. The meeting did not last long. Tsipras, according to Greek officials close to the negotiations, had already decided to call an emergency meeting of his cabinet in Athens for that evening. Even as he spoke with Merkel and Hollande, he was preparing to hand the decision over Greece's fate to the nation's voters. The day before he had decided, after months of talks, that he and Greece's creditors were unable to agree a deal.

As he flew home to Athens later that day on a government plane, the young Greek leader settled on the idea of a referendum, according to the Greek officials. Staging a full-scale election would take too long, he had been advised. But a referendum could express the will of the Greek people.

He informed ministers of his plan, the cabinet approved it and he announced the referendum in a late night television broadcast. The abruptness of the move took some European leaders by surprise. Merkel and Hollande were told of it by telephone shortly before Tsipras announced it.

The bombshell said much about the long-running struggle between wayward Greece and the megalithic European Union, a struggle beset by blunders and serial brinkmanship. As this account details, all parties had their flaws and misjudgements.

At stake is far more than money. The Greek problem cuts to the heart of Europe's future. In Tsipras' eyes it is a crisis of democracy and sovereignty, of whether the wishes of a nation state outweigh the aims of the supra-national euro zone and EU.

For the euro zone – and Germany in particular – it is a test of unity, of whether countries within the 19-nation single currency bloc that fail to meet its economic standards and agreed rules can be brought into line, or not.

Tsipras' call for a referendum infuriated finance ministers from the euro zone, whose meetings are known as the Eurogroup. They and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) had previously rescued Greece from its mountainous debts with massive bailout programmes; the latest was due to end on June 30, when Greece also had to pay 1.6 billion euros to the IMF.

Patience exhausted, the Eurogroup decided last weekend to let the bailout programme expire as scheduled. The European Central Bank (ECB), which was keeping Greek banks afloat with 89 billion euros of emergency funding, also decided enough was enough: it said it would give no further emergency funding.

In Greece fearful citizens queued to take cash out of ATMs. Tsipras and his government ordered Greek banks to stay shut and imposed capital controls to stop funds leaving the country.

On Tuesday Greece failed to make its payment to the IMF. Though talks between the various parties continue and a deal may still be struck, Wednesday dawned with Greece adrift - with no recourse to further funding from the IMF or the bailout programme.

The referendum is due on July 5, though rumours circulated on Wednesday that it might be cancelled. If it does go ahead, Greek voters face a stark choice: Give in to their creditors and accept painful economic reforms, or go their own way. The latter course, some European leaders have made clear, will amount to a decision to quit the euro zone – though Tsipras disputes that view.

This account, based on interviews with people close to the negotiations, shows how the debt crisis became a political one. None of the main players would speak to Reuters on the record.

       

A CROSSROADS

From the moment he became Greek prime minister in January, Tsipras, 40, posed a novel challenge to the well-cut suits of Brussels. Bold and inexperienced, he had no fear of defying convention - not for him any necktie, no matter who he was meeting. His finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, was inclined to leather jackets, blunt language and radical ideas.

Though Tsipras' style was casual, his resolve was steely. As talks on Greece's debts dragged on, he held firm to the core demands of his leftist Syriza party for debt relief – allowing Greece not to repay some of the billions it had borrowed - and an end to austerity.

Tsipras, who had flirted with communism in his youth, cast the debt crisis more as a political issue than a problem of number-crunching. Europe, he wrote in French newspaper Le Monde at the end of May, was "at a crossroads." Either it showed solidarity and granted Greece an easier ride, or it would face division and "the beginning of the end for the European unification project."

That was his bargaining chip: If the euro zone leaders did not cave in, Greece could cause chaos by defaulting on its loans. Greece owes its official lenders 243 billion euros ($271 billion), according to a Reuters calculation based on official data. Germany alone accounts for 57 billion euros in two bailout programmes. Germany is also the biggest shareholder in the European Central Bank (ECB), which has provided 118 billion euros in liquidity to Greek banks, the bank's head Mario Draghi recently said.

Tsipras' chief opponent was Merkel, long-standing leader of Germany, seen by some as a bastion of financial rectitude. Merkel and her combative finance minister, Wolfgang Schaeuble, did not believe Germany should pay any more for Greece's economic mistakes. Not all creditors agreed: Some were sympathetic to Tsipras' call for debt relief.

One of Merkel's main objectives, according to a senior German official, was to get creditors and other institutions to take a united position. Berlin suspected the EU Commission – the executive body running the EU – was willing to give too much ground to Greece to hold the euro zone together.

The Germans fretted that Jean-Claude Juncker, the Commission's president, might be too amenable to Tsipras. When Juncker had met the newly-elected Tsipras in February, he had greeted him with a kiss and led him off by the hand to a meeting. One senior German official joked: "If Juncker could decide for himself, we would have a pure financial transfer (of money from Germany and other countries) to Greece for the next 10 years."

The Germans and their northern creditor allies repeatedly pointed out that the Commission does not provide loans to Greece. It is the member states who lend the money and call the shots.

Merkel was also at odds with the IMF, which thought further debt relief for Greece should be considered. Merkel told Christine Lagarde, the IMF's managing director, that it was essential for Germany that the IMF remain engaged in the Greek bailout programme, according to two persons briefed on their discussion. But the German chancellor ruled out what many economists, and the Greek finance minister, saw as the most practical solution to Greece's immediate cash crunch. That idea was to allow the euro zone's bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), to pay off the loans from the IMF and to take over Greek government bonds held by the ECB. Both sets of debts could be replaced with lower-rate, longer-term loans from the ESM.   

Merkel told Lagarde the idea would be unacceptable to Berlin and to others in the euro zone, according to a person familiar with the German position.

Whether Tsipras felt emboldened by divisions among Greece's creditors is unclear. He played his cards close to his chest. Compounding the difficulties on the Greek side was the fragmented nature of Tsipras' ruling party, Syriza, an assemblage of leftist factions, some passionately opposed to any deal involving austerity. Alexis Mitropoulos, a Syriza member and deputy parliamentary speaker, described one set of creditors' proposals as "the most vulgar, most murderous, toughest plan."

"LOOTING"

As endless meetings came and went, both sides refused to give much ground. Tsipras ratcheted up the rhetoric, accusing Greece's creditors of "five years of looting under the bailouts." Greece, he said, would wait until the creditors recognised the will of the Greek people to end austerity. "We do not have the right to bury European democracy at the place where it was born," he said.

On the other side, some EU officials wondered whether Tsipras wanted to reach a compromise at all. The Greek government repeatedly sent its proposals or responses too late to be analysed by experts of the EU, ECB and IMF before ministerial meetings, raising suspicions that it wanted to avoid scrutiny of fiscal measures that did not add up.

The creditors saw chaos looming. They hurriedly agreed to hold an emergency summit at which political leaders – not officials – would discuss the crisis. It was a goal Tsipras had been seeking.

Events, though, had a momentum of their own. Fearful Greeks were pulling their money from Greek banks. Between last October and April, about 30 billion euros had flowed out. Now the pace quickened: In just a week, depositors yanked some 4 billion euros out of Greek bank accounts.

The governor of Greece's central bank, Yannis Stournaras, summoned senior bankers to a special meeting. According to two of those present, Stournaras issued a dire warning. "If there is no deal, the Europeans will have decided to move on – (that) is what we were told," said one of the bankers. In other words, if there was no deal, Greece would default, go bust and maybe crash out of the euro. A spokesman for the central bank confirmed that the meeting took place but declined to comment on what was discussed.

A "TOMBSTONE"

Faced with time running out and the possibility of banks closing their doors, Tsipras began contemplating concessions to Greece's creditors, according to aides. One of the main sticking points was the pensions system. The IMF insisted that Greece overhaul its pension system to reduce the burden on the state, people familiar with the negotiations said.

Pensions gobbled up 17.5 percent of Greece's GDP in 2012, according to Eurostat, more than any other EU country. Despite subsequent cuts, the country still spends 16 percent of its GDP on pensions – though that's partly because Greece's GDP has fallen. Creditors say the system is fundamentally flawed, creating perverse incentives for Greeks to retire early, draw a pension and then work in the shadow economy, depriving the government of revenue.

The IMF wanted that to change. Tsipras resisted, saying that high unemployment meant that pensions were a vital source of income for many families.

On Sunday June 21 he met Syriza colleagues in Athens to thrash out a new deal to present to creditors. "Tsipras was in and out of the meeting room," said a deputy minister. "He spoke several times by phone to other EU leaders and some policy makers during the meeting. That's why it lasted so many hours."

Late that night Tsipras' team sent new proposals to euro zone officials in Brussels. But they arrived too late for proper consideration at a summit scheduled for the next day, according to EU officials.

Still, after months of wrangling there was mood of optimism as European leaders gathered in Brussels on June 22. President Francois Hollande of France flew in on a Falcon jet and was upbeat, despite headlines such as "Europe on a knife-edge" and "Greece Bust." As a person on the plane familiar with the president's thinking told Reuters: "It's always at the last moment that people find solutions that seemed difficult to imagine at the start."

The same source added a note of caution. "This drama has a risk too, and that's that people may find themselves in a real Greek tragedy, with a death at the end. Possibly several."

True to the warning, talks did not go well. Tsipras gave some ground on pension reforms, but he focused on increasing pension contributions and taxes rather than cutting spending. Creditors wanted more cuts.

German finance minister Schaeuble remained unconvinced. "There is nothing new beyond many trying to create expectations which are not supported by substance," he told reporters. Once again discussions descended into disagreement and acrimony.

Ordinary Greeks also reacted angrily. As word of Tsipras' proposals reached Athens, impoverished pensioners protested in the streets. Leftist lawmaker Yannis Michelogiannakis decried the proposed reforms as a "tombstone" for Greece, asking: "How can you cut a deal that will increase suicides and make people poorer?"

With creditors insisting on tougher measures, Tsipras began considering putting the issue to voters. "We realised ... that there was no will to reach a deal on a viable solution," said a Greek official.

On June 26, Tsipras met Merkel and Hollande in the small room in the French delegation offices in Brussels. Merkel and Hollande dangled the prospect of more than 15 billion euros of loans in instalments over the next five months if Tsipras agreed to creditors' proposals. Almost all of that money, though, would simply go to meet Greece's debt repayments, and none of it was new cash not already committed under the bailout programme. Greeks would still face years of austerity and economic reform.

Tsipras spurned the offer and accused the creditors of "blackmail" in a press conference with reporters.

WEIGHTY DECISION

When he announced the referendum, Tsipras hoped the European institutions would grant some respite from financial pressures until the vote could be held. He asked for Greece's bailout programme to be extended beyond July 5.

France was willing to discuss the idea, euro zone officials said. But other finance ministers refused. "That (calling a referendum) is a sad decision for Greece," said Jeroen Dijsselbloem, president of the Eurogroup. "It has closed the door on further talks while the door was still open, in my mind."

Schaeuble was blunter: "The negotiations are clearly ended, if I understand Mr Tsipras correctly. We have no grounds for further discussions."

Early that evening Varoufakis, the Greek finance minister, left the EU Council building in Brussels. According to several participants in the Eurogroup, he went with a smile. "It was disturbing that someone who has just made a decision against his country, is not devastated, but grins," said an EU official.

The following day, Varoufakis posted a blog entry defending the referendum. "The very idea that a government would consult its people on a problematic proposal put to it by the institutions was treated with incomprehension and often with disdain bordering on contempt," he wrote. "Can democracy and a monetary union coexist? Or must one give way?"

In Berlin, government officials noted that Schaeuble had suggested the idea of a Greek referendum back in May.

Greek officials close to the talks said negotiations could continue despite the expiry of the bailout programme and the referendum. For now, though, Greek banks remain closed. Efforts to find a compromise continued, though on Wednesday Merkel showed little sign of giving ground.

EU Commission president Juncker has made plain the stakes as he sees them in a referendum. On June 29 he told a news conference: "The whole planet would take a Greek 'No' ... to mean Greece wants to set itself apart from the euro zone and from Europe."

He said he would ask "the Greek people to vote 'Yes,'" advising that they should not "commit suicide."

(Maltezou reported from Athens; Pineau from Paris; Rinke from Berlin; Additional reporting by Deepa Babington, Lefteris Papadimas, George Georgiopoulos, Karolina Tagaris and Michele Kambas in Athens; Ingrid Melander in Paris; Paul Taylor, Jan Strupczewski, Philip Blenkinsop and Alastair Macdonald in Brussels; Erik Kirschbaum, Sabine Siebold and Noah Barkin in Berlin; John O'Donnell in Frankfurt; Written by Richard Woods; Edited by Simon Robinson)



Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6401 em: 2015-07-02 08:21:06 »



 entrou no Euro via uma fraude contabilística



pois...tens de perguntar à Goldman como conseguir fazer isso. de resto já te disse, eles são obrigados todos os anos a comprar material que não precisam para nada, como por ex: defesa.
esta europa têm os dias contados, ou avança para o federalismo ou então isto é o principio do fim.
de qq forma a Grécia já ganhou, fmi e merkle deixaram de ser autoritários e mandarem na casa dos outros. agora sentam-se à mesa e conversam, a democracia no seu pleno.

Grande atestado de incompetência que acabaste de passar aos gregos.

Falsificaram as contas porque a GS quis
Compram material militar porque são obrigados (pelos alemães ?)
Anteriormente já tinhas dito que apostaram em derivados (provavelmente também obrigados pela banca de investimentos)

Ou seja, aparentemente qualquer um engana estes gregos. A ser verdade o melhor, mesmo, é não lhes passar dinheiro para as mãos porque é uma questão de tempo até cair nas mãos de um oportunista qualquer.

Já agora mig, isto nunca te incomodou, pois não ?
1985: Quando a Grécia exigiu mais dinheiro para aceitar Portugal na CEE

Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6402 em: 2015-07-02 08:22:09 »
Citar
A diretora-geral do FMI, Christine Lagarde, deu ontem uma entrevista televisiva em que disse esperar que o referendo traga “maior clareza acerca de qual é a posição do povo grego”. Lagarde contou, ainda, que os credores receberam “tantas ofertas de última hora que é difícil perceber qual é, exatamente, a última proposta da Grécia. Lagarde acusou o primeiro-ministro grego de “falta de maturidade” e diz que “foi tomada uma decisão importante, pela Grécia, que foi a de abandonar as negociações e convocar um referendo”.
Observador

Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6403 em: 2015-07-02 08:23:08 »
a fonte disto é uma conversa com um deputado por isso é ler com reservas
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Juncker diz que gregos nunca quiseram (mesmo) um acordo

O presidente da Comissão Europeia, Jean-Claude Juncker, lamenta que as negociações entre Atenas e os credores tenham sido interrompidas pelos gregos quando “estávamos tão perto” de um acordo.

Citado por um deputado europeu que falou com o Politico, Juncker chegou a dizer que a discussão técnica já colocava as partes separadas por apenas 60 milhões de euros, um valor relativamente baixo. “Estávamos prontos para adiantar os fundos europeus e disponibilizá-los à Grécia, mas o governo grego não aceitou a proposta, o que deixou [os credores] convencidos de que os gregos não estavam interessados num acordo por uma questão ideológica”, disse o eurodeputado que falou com Juncker.

“Estávamos tão perto. Já estávamos a discutir medidas que valiam 60 milhões de euros”, terá dito Jean-Claude Juncker.
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vbm

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6404 em: 2015-07-02 08:23:26 »
Tens toda a razão!

É preciso apertar mais isso. Os EUA com o USD não têm problemas porque os limites são brutalmente inferiores ...  :D (0%/0%, "teoricamente"). Digo teoricamente porque há formas de dar a volta, mas sempre para níveis muito inferiores aos observados na Europa.

Concordo que ser algo que não
o que se ideou, é forçoso.

Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6405 em: 2015-07-02 08:24:20 »
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Turismo na Grécia está em apuros

O setor do turismo na Grécia está a sofrer um grande impacto da recente incerteza política e económica, disseram fontes do setor ao jornal Ekathimerini.

O líder de uma associação do setor diz que as reservas de hotéis estão a cair a um ritmo de 50 mil por dia. Além disso, não se esperam tantas reservas de última hora como é habitual, pelo que esse apoio às receitas deverá sofrer, também, um impacto.

Empresários do setor dizem, ainda, ao jornal, que há uma vaga crescente de cancelamentos para hotéis e que as reservas por gregos são praticamente inexistentes.
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Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6406 em: 2015-07-02 08:25:07 »
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Varoufakis admite demitir-se do governo se o "Sim" ganhar

Ministro das Finanças da Grécia diz, citado pelo francês Les Echos, que poderá demitir-se do cargo caso o “Sim” vença o referendo.

Yanis Varoufakis já tinha admitido uma “remodelação” caso o “Sim” vença, indicando, na altura, que acreditava que Alexis Tsipras continuaria no cargo.
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vbm

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6407 em: 2015-07-02 08:40:07 »
Mitologia grega do sec XXI.
Em tempos idos  cansados dos horrores da guerra, homens de difrerentes estirpes, religiões e que falam diferentes línguas cansados dos horrores, tomaram a estranha decisão de ser razoáveis e colocaram a primeira pedra do que sonhavam ser uma sociedade basaeada na cooperação e solidariedade.
Esses homens tiveram filhas (as Danaídes, não sei pq mas soa bem ), mas cometaram o erro de as educar numa vivência virada para o transaccionável, onde o conceito de solidariedade não cotado viola os condicionalismos contabilistos, perturbando o equilibrio harmónico entre deve e haver e oferta e procura. A imperativa necessidade do equilibrio contabilisto exigiu que matassem os pais, o que ofendeu grandemente a Zeus, que as condenou a encher o tonel sem fundo da dívida grega (aka tonel das danaídes)  :D


Belo! :))

Na verdade, a deficiência deriva dos princípios democráticos constitucionalizados pela Revolução Francesa há trezentos anos. Havia três partidos, o do Povo, o dos Nobres, o dos Clérigos. O primeiro tudo deduz do valor de utilidade, o segundo, da desigualdade do mérito, o último de um sentido sagrado da vida. Ora, derrubado o Ancien Regime, torna-se impossível defender uma meritocracia, que fere a igualdade, e não há crença possível de qualquer sentido sagrado da existência superior à mera conveniência higiénica de saúde. Claro, não se deve construir sobre esta crítica qualquer argumentação de regresso  às três ordens sociais do século dezoito aristocrático. Mas, o slogan de a democracia ser o menos mau dos regimes políticos tem de ser obtemperado com a valorização social de princípios outros que não os da exclusiva utilidade.

vbm

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6408 em: 2015-07-02 08:44:57 »
O tonel das Danaides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughters_of_Danaus

Essa por acaso é uma bela analogia. Eu, como sou um gajo mais do garrafão, já tinha dito uma coisa parecida;D




uma bela analogia com a dívida grega. impagável.

Citar
Some accounts tell that their punishment was in Tartarus being forced to carry a jug to fill a bathtub (pithos) without a bottom (or with a leak) to wash their sins off. Because the water was always leaking they would forever try to fill the tub.


L


A vigarice dos credores posta a nu!

Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6409 em: 2015-07-02 08:49:13 »
O lider da igreja ortodoxa apela ao voto no sim (o link tem o audio)

Citar
(Vatican Radio)  The head of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Greece, Archbishop Ieronymos II, has added his voice to those who wish to keep relations with the European Union on a sound footing, four days ahead of a referendum on whether to accept the latest Greek bailout terms.

Ieronymos broke his habitual silence on Wednesday to appeal to Greeks to stay, as he said, at the heart of Europe.  It was a rare public intervention by the soft-spoken archbishop, who scrupulously avoids pronouncing on politics and on controversial issue generally.

Ieronymos is one of 85 national personalities calling for a ‘yes’ vote on Sunday – that is, to accept the creditors’ latest bailout conditions, however tough they might be – so that at least the banks can reopen and this week’s economic paralysis can end.
http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/07/02/head_of_greek_orthodox_church_adds_voice_to_pro-europe_vote/1155476

vbm

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6410 em: 2015-07-02 08:50:00 »
[ ]
A solidariedade baseada na redistribuição do output económico deve ser restrita a dar resposta a situações graves e de incapacidade do próprio. Não deve ser usada para promover níveis de vida superiores aos do próprio "solidário", nem para promover ociosidades.
[ ]

Aprovo a moralidade dessa política.

Pecunia...Olet!

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6411 em: 2015-07-02 09:24:44 »
Quando politica e economia andam de costas voltadas, acontecem referendos com perguntas económico-financeiras que na realidade são perguntas sobre o futuro político do país. Um governo que faz as coisas desta forma merece pouca credibilidade.

Será possível que a maioria dos gregos tenha (in)formação mínima para perceber o enquadramento e impacto económico-financeiro das propostas? Não se tratam apenas dos slogans de corte nas pensões e salários como o Syriza quer fazer crer. Envolvem muito mais do que isso. Envolvem o modelo económico que os gregos querem para o seu futuro. E têm uma semana (inteira!!!) para decidir uma coisa tão crucial. Se fosse um referendo sobre outra questão qualquer certamente só precisariam de dois dias de reflexão....

tommy

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6412 em: 2015-07-02 09:56:18 »
Varoufakis já diz q se vão embora caso o 'sim' ganhe. Já vão tarde depois de quase destruírem um país inteiro.

Como é possível alguém votar no 'não'? A falta de responsabilidade e inteligência é assim tanta?

pedferre

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6413 em: 2015-07-02 10:31:06 »
Varoufakis já diz q se vão embora caso o 'sim' ganhe. Já vão tarde depois de quase destruírem um país inteiro.

Como é possível alguém votar no 'não'? A falta de responsabilidade e inteligência é assim tanta?

É possivel porque eles mentem com todos os dentes que tem, agora dizem que votar NÃO não é sair do Euro, é apenas dar-lhes mais poder negocial para poderem chular mais as nações do Euro, e que a Europa não os deixa sair do Euro e que vão ter de fazer muitas cedências à Grécia para acabar com a austeridade. :)
Mas para um gajo minimamente inteligente percebe que se a Europa não fez cedência a um bando de chantagistas durante meses (Syriza) não é agora que vai fazer...

jeab

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6414 em: 2015-07-02 10:49:06 »
Sinto-me miseravelmente infeliz perante tanta eloquência de gente iluminada, nos mídia, no fórum, nas conversas de rua, sobre o que se passa actualmente na Grécia. Infeliz, porque sinto-me um estúpido à espera que um desses iluminados coloque as questões base e argumente essas mesmas questões. Mas, agora, discute-se só o que é actual e ninguém  mete o dedo na ferida e a esprema até o pus sair todo.

  Mas afinal, como é que a Grécia chegou a este ponto de falência técnica?  Quais foram as causas?  Quem foram os culpados?  Isto é básico . Sem se saber isto, não se pode tomar medidas de evitar a continuação dos problemas, nem de afastar da governança os que as causaram.

Discute-se planos de austeridade que não se faz a mínima ideia se são os adequados, pois não se discute as causas que levaram à presente situação. Discute-se ética, solidariedade, sem se saber o porquê do familiar estar pobre? Olha-se só para a árvora e que se lixe a floresta?

Bolas, devo ser o único estupidamente básico perante tanta pesporrência  :(
« Última modificação: 2015-07-02 10:52:02 por jeab »
O Socialismo acaba quando se acaba o dinheiro - Winston Churchill

Toda a vida política portuguesa pós 25 de Abril/74 está monopolizada pelos partidos políticos, liderados por carreiristas ambiciosos, medíocres e de integridade duvidosa.
Daí provém a mediocridade nacional!
O verdadeiro homem inteligente é aquele que parece ser um idiota na frente de um idiota que parece ser inteligente!

tatanka

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6415 em: 2015-07-02 10:51:04 »
As probabilidades (aproximadamente) das casas de aposta para o Referendo:

SIM : 62%
NAO: 38%

Source: http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-politics/greece-bailout-referendum-result
“I hate reality but it's still the best place to get a good steak.”
― Woody Allen

Zakk

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6416 em: 2015-07-02 10:57:14 »
Sinto-me miseravelmente infeliz perante tanta eloquência de gente iluminada, nos mídia, no fórum, nas conversas de rua, sobre o que se passa actualmente na Grécia. Infeliz, porque sinto-me um estúpido à espera que um desses iluminados coloque as questões base e argumente essas mesmas questões. Mas, agora, discute-se só o que é actual e ninguém  mete o dedo na ferida e a esprema até o pus sair todo.

  Mas afinal, como é que a Grécia chegou a este ponto de falência técnica?  Quais foram as causas?  Quem foram os culpados?  Isto é básico . Sem se saber isto, não se pode tomar medidas de evitar a continuação dos problemas, nem de afastar da governança os que as causaram.

Discute-se planos de austeridade que não se faz a mínima ideia se são os adequados, pois não se discute as causas que levaram à presente situação. Discute-se ética, solidariedade, sem se saber o porquê do familiar estar pobre?

Bolas, devo ser o único estupidamente básico perante tanta pesporrência  :(

Os culpados foram os gregos, foram eles que pediram o dinheiro.
A austeridade imposta vai dar ao mesmo que não pagar a divida, a diferença é que numa o ajuste é feito de um dia para o outro e na outra é feita de forma gradual.

Alem de que o não pagamento de forma unilaterar pode ter consequencias na obtenção de novo crédito.

Este é o meu entendimento.

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6417 em: 2015-07-02 10:58:39 »
Tenho que concordar com o NEO ......

Este Varoufakis so quis exposição , e faz sentido , de certeza que vendeu mais copias do Minotauro , deve ser mais vezes convidado para palestras e a esposa ja expoe com mais frequencia as suas desobras de arte.....
Tinhas razao e ve se agora ......   o povo com medo e ele a sorrir para as camaras.... tal ligeireza com que trata este assunto .

O Tsipras ainda nao percebi o que ganhou com isto tudo....

Era fazer como o BDC fez ao Godinho

pedferre

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6418 em: 2015-07-02 11:14:40 »
E se o Sim ganhar e houver novas eleições quem garante que o Syriza não ganha de novo?

Zakk

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6419 em: 2015-07-02 11:17:48 »
Ganhar o sim ou o não é indiferente. O importante é a linha do ELA não abrir enquanto o acordo não passar no parlamento grego.