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Autor Tópico: Grécia - Tópico principal  (Lida 1839914 vezes)

Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5100 em: 2015-06-24 02:17:53 »
parece-me que a nova tactica negocial eh ameacar com um chumbo no parlamento e queda do governo

Mas a proposta com que avançaram parece suficiente para ser aprovada, ainda que desagrade ao FMI por ser virada para aumentos de impostos (e de impostos sobre lucros) em vez de visar controlar a despesa e liberalizar a economia para crescer mais rápido.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Zel

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5101 em: 2015-06-24 02:32:13 »
parece-me que a nova tactica negocial eh ameacar com um chumbo no parlamento e queda do governo

Mas a proposta com que avançaram parece suficiente para ser aprovada, ainda que desagrade ao FMI por ser virada para aumentos de impostos (e de impostos sobre lucros) em vez de visar controlar a despesa e liberalizar a economia para crescer mais rápido.

eh preciso cortar em quem tem mais, eheh
espera so ate teres o PS no governo, vem ai mais impostos

Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5102 em: 2015-06-24 02:33:12 »
o bloco de esquerda fez como o lark... no passado o bloco elogiou o syriza por cumprir o programa e ser um exemplo democratico como nao ha
mas agora ignora a quebra de promessas eleitorais

não tens nada onde pegar.
não quebrou coisa nenhuma.
já estás a começar a alargar-te outra vez.
a que propósito é que eu sou para aqui chamado?

não dá! sou só um!
são muitos admiradores.
ele é o tommy com o sonho da catarina, o antunes também me anda cortejar furiosamente e tu...tu nunca deixaste de me amar....
assim não dou conta do recado.
largai-me a braguilha senhores...

Lark

Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Zel

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5103 em: 2015-06-24 02:38:44 »
o bloco de esquerda fez como o lark... no passado o bloco elogiou o syriza por cumprir o programa e ser um exemplo democratico como nao ha
mas agora ignora a quebra de promessas eleitorais

não tens nada onde pegar.
não quebrou coisa nenhuma.
já estás a começar a alargar-te outra vez.
a que propósito é que eu sou para aqui chamado?

não dá! sou só um!
são muitos admiradores.
ele é o tommy com o sonho da catarina, o antunes também me anda cortejar furiosamente e tu...tu nunca deixaste de me amar....
assim não dou conta do recado.
largai-me a braguilha senhores...

Lark

sim, eu gosto de ti. e como tal tenho um martelo so com o teu nome.  :D

Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5104 em: 2015-06-24 02:42:19 »
o bloco de esquerda fez como o lark... no passado o bloco elogiou o syriza por cumprir o programa e ser um exemplo democratico como nao ha
mas agora ignora a quebra de promessas eleitorais

não tens nada onde pegar.
não quebrou coisa nenhuma.
já estás a começar a alargar-te outra vez.
a que propósito é que eu sou para aqui chamado?

não dá! sou só um!
são muitos admiradores.
ele é o tommy com o sonho da catarina, o antunes também me anda cortejar furiosamente e tu...tu nunca deixaste de me amar....
assim não dou conta do recado.
largai-me a braguilha senhores...

Lark

sim, eu gosto de ti. e como tal tenho um martelo so com o teu nome.  :D

também estás a ficar críptico-hermético.
o que é que isso é suposto significar?

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5105 em: 2015-06-24 02:52:16 »
Europe is destroying Greece’s economy for no reason at all

History repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce, and finally as trolling. That, at least, is the case in Greece, where its lenders want it to cut its pensions rather than hike its business taxes, because they're afraid those increases would, as the Financial Times's Peter Spiegel reports, "crimp economic growth."

Oh, so now they're worried that austerity hurts the economy. Too bad they weren't a little more concerned about that before it made Greece's economy shrink 25 percent.

Now, the latest Greek drama isn't over, but it is in its last act. A deal should—admittedly one of the more dangerous words in the English language—be imminent.
The problem, as it has been for the past five years, is that Europe and Greece haven't been able to agree on what austerity the latter will do in return for money from the former.

This time, Europe has wanted Greece to cut its pensions more than the 40 percent they already have, but Greece hasn't. And that was that. Both sides thought the other would cave the closer they got to the deadline, so there was a lot of talk about "red lines" and "final offers" but not much actual negotiation.

That's changed now. Why? Well, Greece has discovered it has much less leverage than it thought. Part of it is that panic about Greece has stayed in Greece because the European Central Bank has both begun to buy other countries' bonds and promised to buy as many as it takes to keep their borrowing costs down.

And the rest is that Greece's banks aren't so much an Achilles heel as an Achilles whole. In other words, they're pretty easy to pressure. Greece's banks not only need emergency loans from the ECB to stay afloat, but are also sitting on a pile of Greek government bonds and deferred tax assets that would presumably be worth a lot less if there isn't a deal and Athens defaults.


So all Europe has to do is say it isn't sure Greece's banks have enough cash to stay open, and people will pull their money out even faster than before. That's what happened when European officials leaked that they weren't sure Greece's banks could make it past Monday, and followed it up by saying they might have to stop people from moving their money out of the country.

That's yelling run in a crowded bank. And it worked. Greek depositors pulled out three times as much as normal the past few days, and that's left their banks even more at the mercy of the ECB — which has forced the government to either leave the euro or accept Europe's terms.

Greece gave in. Well, mostly. It's proposing to cut its pensions about half as much as Europe wants — raising contributions and retirement ages, as well as cutting back on early retirement — and then raising taxes to make up for the rest.

Specifically, it would levy a new tax on corporate profits and increase its value-added tax, basically a national sales tax, to 23 percent on all but a handful of items. In all, this would be a fiscal tightening of 1.5 percent of gross domestic product this year and 2.9 percent the next.

The only thing holding up a deal is that Europe thinks this is the wrong kind of austerity. Spending cuts don't seem to be as bad for the economy as tax hikes, so that's what Europe wants Greece to do.

On the one hand, this is sound economic advice. But on the other, are you freaking kidding me? It's like making someone commit suicide, and then disapproving of how they did it .

The real question is why Europe is forcing Greece to do any more austerity at all. It's already done so much that, before this latest showdown, it actually had a budget surplus before interest payments.

And that's all it should shoot for, really: the point at which it doesn't need any more bailouts from Europe. Anything more than that, though, would just inflict unnecessary — and self-defeating! — harm to the economy.

When interest rates are zero, like they are now, budget cuts of 3 percent of GDP would, by Paul Krugman's calculation, make the economy shrink something like 7.5 percent. So even though you have less debt, your debt burden isn't much better since you have less money to pay it back.

There's only one reason to make Greece do more austerity, and it makes no sense at all. That's to try to make it pay back what it owes. Indeed, one European official said that the entire point of this was that they "want to get our money back some day."

The problem, though, is everybody knows Greece will never do that. Its debt should have been written down in 2010, but it wasn't because it was "bailed out" to the extent that it was given money to then give to French and German banks.

The longer Europe pretends this new debt will be paid back, the longer Greece's depression will go on. Now, it's true that Europe has lowered the interest rates and extended the maturities on Greece's debt so far out that, for now at least, it's like a lot of it doesn't exist. But eventually it will, and at that point they'll either need to extend-and-pretend some more or hope that Greece has returned to growth.

Until then, Greece will be stuck in its economic Groundhog Day. It keeps trying to resist these pointless budget cuts that just keep it in a perpetual state of high unemployment, but then gives in at the last minute. On second thought, history is just repeating itself as tragedy over and over again.

wapo
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Zel

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5106 em: 2015-06-24 02:53:27 »
estava aqui a ver o "grande jornal" com um deputado do bloco a defender o aumento do iva grego (que eh uma quebra de promessa eleitoral)
muito bom !

Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5107 em: 2015-06-24 02:58:09 »
Europe wants Greece to suffer: The truth about the never-ending financial crisis & the cult of extreme austerity
Greece's financial nightmare has lasted five years now. There's no sign of real relief—for a very specific reason

Europe wants Greece to suffer: The truth about the never-ending financial crisis & the cult of extreme austerity

For someone who writes about economics, the situation in Greece offers two enticing elements: the ability to spin out moments of high drama, and the probability it will endlessly repeat forever.

We’ve experienced five years (really, here’s one of my first stories on Greece, from April 2010) of wondering whether the deeply indebted country will exit the euro or submit to more painful conditions from its European creditors.

Two governments – the center-right and the center-left – took the latter option, and paid dearly for it. Now the far-left Syriza appears poised to do the same, after delivering a new proposal to unlock bailout funds.

Meanwhile, the prospects for ordinary Greek citizens never changes, adding a nightmarish “Groundhog Day” touch to the proceedings. Regardless of whether the country is spiraling into near-default or praising a debt deal, unemployment has remained over 25 percent for the past three years.

Half a decade into the Great Depression, there was at least some semblance of a brighter day; in Greece there are only gradations of misery. And what could break this terrible cycle is the only thing the political system and the public imagination cannot seem to contemplate: leaving the euro.

What has been happening in Greece has been a long exercise in sadism by European elites, who care only about keeping their political project alive, regardless of how those who must deal with the consequences are affected.

Three governments ago, Greece rang up a series of debts that they have no practical ability to pay back. The structure of the eurozone, 19 countries sharing a common currency, encouraged this debt buildup, which manifested through capital flows from the wealthier north to the southern periphery.

With a single currency, investors chased higher returns in countries where capital was scarcer; this was part of the core euro design. When the investors pulled out and the debts came due, the northern states, led by Germany, pretended this didn’t happen and demanded their money back.

The European Union, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund – the “troika” for short – forced Greece and other debtor nations into a bailout program, where they would run budget surpluses, even in the midst of a depression, and repay debts over the long-term.

But the troika had another mission. They wanted to suck the oxygen out of any anti-austerity movement in Europe, and knuckle every country under their dictates. Therefore, the troika’s entire goal with Syriza, who entered office in January, has been not only to grant them concessions in negotiations, but to directly humiliate them and force them into a series of bad choices, as a lesson to all other Eurozone countries.

The latest proposal from Syriza, after months of delays and rejections, reflects this forced grovel. The government, which faces default if they don’t pay the IMF 1.6 billion euro by the end of the month, has committed to higher contributions for their pension plan, including from retirees. They will significantly ramp up their value-added tax (VAT), which acts like a sales tax, hitting those of modest means the hardest. Because Syriza didn’t cut pension payouts any further, and maintained the same VAT for selected items, they are claiming that they didn’t cross any of their red lines.

But despite some modest tax increases on corporate profits and luxury yachts, the bottom line is that Syriza agreed to future austerity measures indefinitely. Under the plan, they would maintain a budgetary surplus at 1 percent of gross domestic product for 2015.

The surplus would steadily rise to 2 percent next year, 3 percent in 2017 and as high as 3.5 percent by 2018, as a condition for getting their bailout funds. It’s possible that these targets are “made to be missed,” as writer Daniel Davies puts it.

And the surplus for 2015, at least, is less than first proposed. But since conditions have worsened in Greece since negotiations began in February, and the current budget deficit is higher, they’re still assenting to the same level of budget cuts to hit the target. And this is before the troika tweaks the deal more to their liking.

salon
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5108 em: 2015-06-24 03:04:20 »
Creditors' economic plan for Greece is illiterate and doomed to fail

The troika’s austerity policies have already failed twice, and once again they will only make the severe economic problems that Athens faces worse

The troika plan for the Greek economy has already failed twice, and it will fail for a third time if the economically illiterate plan being foisted on Athens is adopted. Greece requires growth and debt relief, but the proposals currently being discussed provide neither.

As usual, the International Monetary Fund, the European commission and the European Central Bank will come up with forecasts showing that the latest set of austerity measures will boost confidence, promote investment, stimulate growth and lead to lower unemployment. As usual, they will be wrong. The recession will deepen and the crisis will return.

Back in 2010 when it first got involved, the IMF assumed that the Greek economy would have a painful but relatively short recession. There would be a 6% peak to trough contraction in the economy, which would bottom out in 2011.

Things did not go according to plan. By the time the fund announced its second programme for Greece in March 2012, the economy was in freefall. The IMF assumed the decline would end that year, with a period of flatlining followed by the resumption of growth.

In the end, the Greek economy shrank by 25%, a slump equivalent in its severity to that suffered by the US between 1929 and 1932. Recovery coincided with the arrival of Franklin Roosevelt in the White House.

One of the insights gleaned during the Great Depression was that it does not make a lot of sense for governments to try to balance budgets during a severe downturn, because tax increases and spending cuts reduce demand. That deepens the slump, leaving an even bigger hole in the public finances.

In Greece, though, it as if the clock has been turned back to the pre-FDR days when Herbert Hoover was US president. Weak growth means that Athens continues to miss the deficit targets the troika sets for it. The troika responds by insisting on additional savings to put the budget back on track.

Paul Krugman, the Nobel prize-winning US economist, posted a chart last week based on IMF data that illustrates what happened to the underlying public finances of the eurozone members in 2014.



já tinha postado isto lá mais para trás.


This measure of budgetary discipline looks at the primary budget surplus - the gap between revenues and spending excluding debt interest payments - adjusted for the state of the economic cycle. Measured in this way, Greece ran a surplus of more than 5% of GDP last year, comfortably higher than any other eurozone country.

It is, however, not enough for the troika. In order to avoid a debt default and a run on its banks that would threaten its continued membership of the single currency, Greece has now had to table proposals that will suck an additional €8bn out of the economy in the next 18 months. Consumer spending will be hit by an increase in VAT and higher pension contributions, while investment will be dampened by a one-off levy and an increase in corporation tax.

Greece has a number of severe economic problems. It suffers from a lack of demand, and a five-year slump has pushed it into deflation. Falling prices have added to the real, inflation-adjusted burden of the government’s debt, which currently stands at 175% of GDP. A fresh dose of austerity will make all these problems worse.

One way for Greece to get out of its mess would be for it to leave the euro, devalue its currency and renege on all or part of its debt. That is not an option if it stays in the single currency, which the public wants.

Another way out would be for the creditors to cut Greece some slack. That would involve immediate debt relief and more realistic targets.

The troika, though, will continue with policies that have failed before in the hope that they will succeed this time. Einstein had a definition for this - insanity.

theguardian
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Kin2010

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5109 em: 2015-06-24 03:09:04 »
"The surplus would steadily rise to 2 percent next year, 3 percent in 2017 and as high as 3.5 percent by 2018, as a condition for getting their bailout funds. It’s possible that these targets are “made to be missed,” as writer Daniel Davies puts it."

Claro que os targets não vão ser alcançados. Esta farsa vai provavelmente prolongar-se por anos. A Grécia já mostrou que lhe basta ter umas novas eleições, que o novo governo alega que o que os outros assinaram não era justo, e não cumpre o que assinou, e obriga os outros a meses de negociações.




Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5110 em: 2015-06-24 03:21:14 »
"The surplus would steadily rise to 2 percent next year, 3 percent in 2017 and as high as 3.5 percent by 2018, as a condition for getting their bailout funds. It’s possible that these targets are “made to be missed,” as writer Daniel Davies puts it."

Claro que os targets não vão ser alcançados. Esta farsa vai provavelmente prolongar-se por anos. A Grécia já mostrou que lhe basta ter umas novas eleições, que o novo governo alega que o que os outros assinaram não era justo, e não cumpre o que assinou, e obriga os outros a meses de negociações.

se houver novas eleições - e pode bem haver, já que o IMF está a torpedear o acordo, porque o plano grego taxa muito os ricos, coitados - e em consequência pode não haver acordo ainda, ou não vir a haver de todo.

mas o facto é que se houver novas eleições o syrisa ganha com 42 % dos votos o que na grécia gera uma maioria absoluta.
não precisam do partido nacionalista de direita, o ANEL - que detém o ministério da defesa - e poderão cortar forte e feio na defesa, o que agora não é possível devido ao acordo que o syriza fez com eles. na prática o Kammenos ( o líder do ANEL ) disse ao tsipras 'faz o que quiseres. não toques na defesa.'.

Lark

Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5111 em: 2015-06-24 08:41:29 »
Do ponto de vista político é uma vergonha se o Tsipras não se demite. Passa a ser um vigarista igual aos outros que não cumprem o programa eleitoral pelos quais são eleitos.
Do ponto de vista económico é excelente para a Grécia que o Tsipras se torne nesse vigarista.
« Última modificação: 2015-06-24 08:41:49 por Automek »

Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5112 em: 2015-06-24 09:07:10 »
Europe is destroying Greece’s economy for no reason at all

History repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce, and finally as trolling. That, at least, is the case in Greece, where its lenders want it to cut its pensions rather than hike its business taxes, because they're afraid those increases would, as the Financial Times's Peter Spiegel reports, "crimp economic growth."

Oh, so now they're worried that austerity hurts the economy. Too bad they weren't a little more concerned about that before it made Greece's economy shrink 25 percent.

Now, the latest Greek drama isn't over, but it is in its last act. A deal should—admittedly one of the more dangerous words in the English language—be imminent.
The problem, as it has been for the past five years, is that Europe and Greece haven't been able to agree on what austerity the latter will do in return for money from the former.

This time, Europe has wanted Greece to cut its pensions more than the 40 percent they already have, but Greece hasn't. And that was that. Both sides thought the other would cave the closer they got to the deadline, so there was a lot of talk about "red lines" and "final offers" but not much actual negotiation.

That's changed now. Why? Well, Greece has discovered it has much less leverage than it thought. Part of it is that panic about Greece has stayed in Greece because the European Central Bank has both begun to buy other countries' bonds and promised to buy as many as it takes to keep their borrowing costs down.

And the rest is that Greece's banks aren't so much an Achilles heel as an Achilles whole. In other words, they're pretty easy to pressure. Greece's banks not only need emergency loans from the ECB to stay afloat, but are also sitting on a pile of Greek government bonds and deferred tax assets that would presumably be worth a lot less if there isn't a deal and Athens defaults.


So all Europe has to do is say it isn't sure Greece's banks have enough cash to stay open, and people will pull their money out even faster than before. That's what happened when European officials leaked that they weren't sure Greece's banks could make it past Monday, and followed it up by saying they might have to stop people from moving their money out of the country.

That's yelling run in a crowded bank. And it worked. Greek depositors pulled out three times as much as normal the past few days, and that's left their banks even more at the mercy of the ECB — which has forced the government to either leave the euro or accept Europe's terms.

Greece gave in. Well, mostly. It's proposing to cut its pensions about half as much as Europe wants — raising contributions and retirement ages, as well as cutting back on early retirement — and then raising taxes to make up for the rest.

Specifically, it would levy a new tax on corporate profits and increase its value-added tax, basically a national sales tax, to 23 percent on all but a handful of items. In all, this would be a fiscal tightening of 1.5 percent of gross domestic product this year and 2.9 percent the next.

The only thing holding up a deal is that Europe thinks this is the wrong kind of austerity. Spending cuts don't seem to be as bad for the economy as tax hikes, so that's what Europe wants Greece to do.

On the one hand, this is sound economic advice. But on the other, are you freaking kidding me? It's like making someone commit suicide, and then disapproving of how they did it .

The real question is why Europe is forcing Greece to do any more austerity at all. It's already done so much that, before this latest showdown, it actually had a budget surplus before interest payments.

And that's all it should shoot for, really: the point at which it doesn't need any more bailouts from Europe. Anything more than that, though, would just inflict unnecessary — and self-defeating! — harm to the economy.

When interest rates are zero, like they are now, budget cuts of 3 percent of GDP would, by Paul Krugman's calculation, make the economy shrink something like 7.5 percent. So even though you have less debt, your debt burden isn't much better since you have less money to pay it back.

There's only one reason to make Greece do more austerity, and it makes no sense at all. That's to try to make it pay back what it owes. Indeed, one European official said that the entire point of this was that they "want to get our money back some day."

The problem, though, is everybody knows Greece will never do that. Its debt should have been written down in 2010, but it wasn't because it was "bailed out" to the extent that it was given money to then give to French and German banks.

The longer Europe pretends this new debt will be paid back, the longer Greece's depression will go on. Now, it's true that Europe has lowered the interest rates and extended the maturities on Greece's debt so far out that, for now at least, it's like a lot of it doesn't exist. But eventually it will, and at that point they'll either need to extend-and-pretend some more or hope that Greece has returned to growth.

Until then, Greece will be stuck in its economic Groundhog Day. It keeps trying to resist these pointless budget cuts that just keep it in a perpetual state of high unemployment, but then gives in at the last minute. On second thought, history is just repeating itself as tragedy over and over again.

wapo


Lark, porque lês lixo deste?

A partir da frase a bold sabe-se a 100% que o artigo é inútil.
« Última modificação: 2015-06-24 09:07:29 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5113 em: 2015-06-24 09:10:24 »
Europe wants Greece to suffer: The truth about the never-ending financial crisis & the cult of extreme austerity
Greece's financial nightmare has lasted five years now. There's no sign of real relief—for a very specific reason

Europe wants Greece to suffer: The truth about the never-ending financial crisis & the cult of extreme austerity

For someone who writes about economics, the situation in Greece offers two enticing elements: the ability to spin out moments of high drama, and the probability it will endlessly repeat forever.

We’ve experienced five years (really, here’s one of my first stories on Greece, from April 2010) of wondering whether the deeply indebted country will exit the euro or submit to more painful conditions from its European creditors.

Two governments – the center-right and the center-left – took the latter option, and paid dearly for it. Now the far-left Syriza appears poised to do the same, after delivering a new proposal to unlock bailout funds.

Meanwhile, the prospects for ordinary Greek citizens never changes, adding a nightmarish “Groundhog Day” touch to the proceedings. Regardless of whether the country is spiraling into near-default or praising a debt deal, unemployment has remained over 25 percent for the past three years.

Half a decade into the Great Depression, there was at least some semblance of a brighter day; in Greece there are only gradations of misery. And what could break this terrible cycle is the only thing the political system and the public imagination cannot seem to contemplate: leaving the euro.

What has been happening in Greece has been a long exercise in sadism by European elites, who care only about keeping their political project alive, regardless of how those who must deal with the consequences are affected.

Three governments ago, Greece rang up a series of debts that they have no practical ability to pay back. The structure of the eurozone, 19 countries sharing a common currency, encouraged this debt buildup, which manifested through capital flows from the wealthier north to the southern periphery.

With a single currency, investors chased higher returns in countries where capital was scarcer; this was part of the core euro design. When the investors pulled out and the debts came due, the northern states, led by Germany, pretended this didn’t happen and demanded their money back.

The European Union, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund – the “troika” for short – forced Greece and other debtor nations into a bailout program, where they would run budget surpluses, even in the midst of a depression, and repay debts over the long-term.

But the troika had another mission. They wanted to suck the oxygen out of any anti-austerity movement in Europe, and knuckle every country under their dictates. Therefore, the troika’s entire goal with Syriza, who entered office in January, has been not only to grant them concessions in negotiations, but to directly humiliate them and force them into a series of bad choices, as a lesson to all other Eurozone countries.

The latest proposal from Syriza, after months of delays and rejections, reflects this forced grovel. The government, which faces default if they don’t pay the IMF 1.6 billion euro by the end of the month, has committed to higher contributions for their pension plan, including from retirees. They will significantly ramp up their value-added tax (VAT), which acts like a sales tax, hitting those of modest means the hardest. Because Syriza didn’t cut pension payouts any further, and maintained the same VAT for selected items, they are claiming that they didn’t cross any of their red lines.

But despite some modest tax increases on corporate profits and luxury yachts, the bottom line is that Syriza agreed to future austerity measures indefinitely. Under the plan, they would maintain a budgetary surplus at 1 percent of gross domestic product for 2015.

The surplus would steadily rise to 2 percent next year, 3 percent in 2017 and as high as 3.5 percent by 2018, as a condition for getting their bailout funds. It’s possible that these targets are “made to be missed,” as writer Daniel Davies puts it.

And the surplus for 2015, at least, is less than first proposed. But since conditions have worsened in Greece since negotiations began in February, and the current budget deficit is higher, they’re still assenting to the same level of budget cuts to hit the target. And this is before the troika tweaks the deal more to their liking.

salon


Outro ... "the cult of extreme austerity", etc, etc.

O que é que esta gente queria, afinal? Que outros países vivessem para alimentar Gregos ou algo do género?

Lark, estes artigos não têm ponta por onde se lhes pegue.

São uma versão jornalística de "mais vale rico e de boa saúde do que pobre e doente".
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5114 em: 2015-06-24 09:11:53 »
Creditors' economic plan for Greece is illiterate and doomed to fail

The troika’s austerity policies have already failed twice, and once again they will only make the severe economic problems that Athens faces worse

The troika plan for the Greek economy has already failed twice, and it will fail for a third time if the economically illiterate plan being foisted on Athens is adopted. Greece requires growth and debt relief, but the proposals currently being discussed provide neither.

As usual, the International Monetary Fund, the European commission and the European Central Bank will come up with forecasts showing that the latest set of austerity measures will boost confidence, promote investment, stimulate growth and lead to lower unemployment. As usual, they will be wrong. The recession will deepen and the crisis will return.

Back in 2010 when it first got involved, the IMF assumed that the Greek economy would have a painful but relatively short recession. There would be a 6% peak to trough contraction in the economy, which would bottom out in 2011.

Things did not go according to plan. By the time the fund announced its second programme for Greece in March 2012, the economy was in freefall. The IMF assumed the decline would end that year, with a period of flatlining followed by the resumption of growth.

In the end, the Greek economy shrank by 25%, a slump equivalent in its severity to that suffered by the US between 1929 and 1932. Recovery coincided with the arrival of Franklin Roosevelt in the White House.

One of the insights gleaned during the Great Depression was that it does not make a lot of sense for governments to try to balance budgets during a severe downturn, because tax increases and spending cuts reduce demand. That deepens the slump, leaving an even bigger hole in the public finances.

In Greece, though, it as if the clock has been turned back to the pre-FDR days when Herbert Hoover was US president. Weak growth means that Athens continues to miss the deficit targets the troika sets for it. The troika responds by insisting on additional savings to put the budget back on track.

Paul Krugman, the Nobel prize-winning US economist, posted a chart last week based on IMF data that illustrates what happened to the underlying public finances of the eurozone members in 2014.



já tinha postado isto lá mais para trás.


This measure of budgetary discipline looks at the primary budget surplus - the gap between revenues and spending excluding debt interest payments - adjusted for the state of the economic cycle. Measured in this way, Greece ran a surplus of more than 5% of GDP last year, comfortably higher than any other eurozone country.

It is, however, not enough for the troika. In order to avoid a debt default and a run on its banks that would threaten its continued membership of the single currency, Greece has now had to table proposals that will suck an additional €8bn out of the economy in the next 18 months. Consumer spending will be hit by an increase in VAT and higher pension contributions, while investment will be dampened by a one-off levy and an increase in corporation tax.

Greece has a number of severe economic problems. It suffers from a lack of demand, and a five-year slump has pushed it into deflation. Falling prices have added to the real, inflation-adjusted burden of the government’s debt, which currently stands at 175% of GDP. A fresh dose of austerity will make all these problems worse.

One way for Greece to get out of its mess would be for it to leave the euro, devalue its currency and renege on all or part of its debt. That is not an option if it stays in the single currency, which the public wants.

Another way out would be for the creditors to cut Greece some slack. That would involve immediate debt relief and more realistic targets.

The troika, though, will continue with policies that have failed before in the hope that they will succeed this time. Einstein had a definition for this - insanity.

theguardian


A troika não falhou -- o objectivo era repor os equilíbrios, nomeadamente o externo. Os equilíbrios foram repostos.

Esses artigos são coisas inúteis que nem se percebe bem o que defendem, pois certamente defenderem que outros vivam para sustentar a Grécia é retardado.

A Grécia chegou onde chegou através de ter "mais slack", a insanidade seria continuar a providenciar a Grécia com dívida adicional enquanto se lhe perdoava a anterior como foi feito. Isto é óbvio, de resto. Se fosses TU com o teu dinheiro, não actuarias diferente da troika. Insanidade seria emprestar mais à Grécia sem condições que repusessem o equilíbrio.

« Última modificação: 2015-06-24 09:13:54 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Zenith

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5115 em: 2015-06-24 09:26:02 »
Max-Neef: “La economía neoliberal mata más gente que todos los ejércitos juntos”

http://www.elciudadano.cl/2014/06/30/108100/max-neef-la-economia-neoliberal-mata-mas-gente-que-todos-los-ejercitos-juntos/


Desconhecia esse fulano, mas diz umas coisas que eu tambám já referi numa linguagem mais atabalhoada em vários posts.

Citar
la economía neoliberal radica en que “no entiende el mundo y, además, los seres humanos son irrelevantes.



Citar
“absurdo” y un “disparate descomunal” que en pleno siglo XXI la economía se rija por “ideas neoclásicas del siglo XIX”


Realmente é dificil de perceber: os psicologos (e.g. Kahneman) fazem testes e mais testes e verificam que o comportamento humano afasta-se na maior parte das vezes do expectável em alguém que racionalmente pretende maximizar a utilidade; os matematicos (e.g. Mandelbrot) analisam dados e mais dados e só encontram curvas esquisitas. No entanto os neo-liberais continuam com fé nos modelos do sec XIX onde para imitar o rigor e determinismo da física os pioneiros da economia postularam as leis simples baseadas na racionalidade e maximização da utilidade. Os proprios fisicos aceitaram com a mecanica quantica que os modelos deterministicos tinham limites mas  os neo-liberais continuam com a mesma fé ineroxável nas revelações iniciais.

pedferre

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5116 em: 2015-06-24 09:30:55 »
Completamente de acordo com o Inc. Quanto à divida antiga de certeza que no futuro quando a Grécia já tiver as contas equilibradas se calhar metade dela ainda vai ser perdoada, e é errado dizer que a França/Alemanha não perderam dinheiro já na Grécia, num dos perdões de divida os bancos franceses e alemães tiveram prejuizos brutais por terem de perdoar parte da divida à Grécia, acho que até o BCP foi afetado na altura.

Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5117 em: 2015-06-24 09:33:29 »
Os neo-liberais não têm fé em modelo nenhum, Zenith...

Ser-se neo-liberal é simplesmente acreditar que os outros são iguais a nós, devem ter os mesmos direitos que nós, que as suas opções são como as nossas, que vivem a sua vida como nós. Não se trata realmente de acreditar num modelo económico ou algo do género. O modelo económico flui dessas premissas -- acredita-se num mercado livre porque é o que respeita as opções dos outros, não devido a curvas e utilidades e afins.

Isso é que respeita o indivíduo. A ALTERNATIVA é que não o respeita. Daí que esse texto seja um lixo.

----------

E com a cena dos neo-liberais matarem esse texto desce a um nível retardado difícil de compreender. Principalmente para quem saiba um niquinho de história e de quem REALMENTE matou magotes de pessoas.

Esse texto em nada difere dos milhares de textos sobre 11 de Setembros, e não-idas à lua, etc.
« Última modificação: 2015-06-24 09:37:16 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5118 em: 2015-06-24 09:44:52 »
Já agora, isso pode ser-te difícil de compreender por uma razão simples:
* Porque geralmente a ideologia liberal parte de princípios para estabelecer as regras. As consequências, objectivos, etc, recebem pouco valor -- os princípios são mais importantes (serem todos tratados de forma igual, terem todos o mesmo valor face ao Estado, ninguém ser beneficiado ou descriminado, etc).
* E numa ideologia colectivista, as regras são estabelecidas a pensar nos objectivos. Apoia-se o artista X porque é melhor e porque apoiar todos por igual devido ao público iria apoiar as mamas sei lá de quem. Descrimina-se apoios à educação de alunos que frequentem o ensino privado versus público, porque não o fazer iria ter a consequência X ou Y considerada desagradável, etc.

Ou seja, a ideologia colectivista é intrinsecamente corrupta. Visa, nas suas regras, beneficiar alguém em vez de tratar todos por igual. Visa isso com os recursos de todos, beneficiando depois alguns escolhidos arbitrariamente. Nessa ideologia, o que conta mais é arranjar "bons motivos" para se ser beneficiado (daí que a descriminação público/privado ocorra supostamente devido a bons motivos de igualdade e afins -- precisamente quando os viola e quando o verdadeiro objectivo é beneficiar públicos específicos, nomeadamente actores do sistema).

Naturalmente o resultado de um sistema assim é um corpo legal gigantesco, com milhares de excepções, cada uma desenhada para beneficiar alguém. Reconheces isto?

O resultado também é um monte de indivíduos a berrar "corrupção", e a dizer que a lei é muito complexa e cheia de excepções (excepto onde os beneficiar -- mas lá está, com 10 milhões de interesses diferentes, só por sorte os nossos e não os dos outros seriam sempre contemplados), etc, etc. Tudo coisas que observamos hoje e que são consequências previsíveis do sistema.

---------

Ao opores-te a um neo-liberal, estás a opor-te aos princípios que este defende, não a um suposto sistema económico. Um neo-liberal não terá problema nenhum em ele próprio seguir um sistema económico diferente, ou que outros sigam um sistema económico diferente. O seu único problema só aparecerá se o quiseres forçar a outro sistema, se lhe quiseres retirar a sua liberdade. Se a participação naquilo que advogas for voluntária, para o neo-liberal estará tudo bem. O curioso é que o contrário não é verdade.

E não há grande dúvida sobre qual a posição mais ética.

---------

Sendo assim, porque é que há tanto asco aos "neo-liberais"? A minha melhor estimativa seria o facto de os neo-liberais serem contra a arbitrariedade. Ou seja, contra as veleidades dos outros de controlarem terceiros para os seus próprios objectivos. Isso naturalmente é mau para qualquer pessoa com uma ideologia colectivista, pois todo o seu modelo se baseia em usar os outros para arbitrariamente alcançar os seus objectivos (a tal coisa de desenhar as regras não de acordo com um princípio mas sim de acordo com um objectivo -- algo inteiramente patente até aqui nos debates no fórum).
« Última modificação: 2015-06-24 10:08:09 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Zenith

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5119 em: 2015-06-24 10:12:43 »
Os neo-liberais não têm fé em modelo nenhum, Zenith...

Ser-se neo-liberal é simplesmente acreditar que os outros são iguais a nós, devem ter os mesmos direitos que nós, que as suas opções são como as nossas, que vivem a sua vida como nós. Não se trata realmente de acreditar num modelo económico ou algo do género. O modelo económico flui dessas premissas -- acredita-se num mercado livre porque é o que respeita as opções dos outros, não devido a curvas e utilidades e afins.

Isso é que respeita o indivíduo. A ALTERNATIVA é que não o respeita. Daí que esse texto seja um lixo.

----------

E com a cena dos neo-liberais matarem esse texto desce a um nível retardado difícil de compreender. Principalmente para quem saiba um niquinho de história e de quem REALMENTE matou magotes de pessoas.

Esse texto em nada difere dos milhares de textos sobre 11 de Setembros, e não-idas à lua, etc.

Tu é que andas aqui sempre a dizer que as pessoas tem de produzir para os outros e coisas afins. Definição mais clara de utilidade não consigo vislumbrar. Depois isso não se encaixa bem com o ser humano porque a partir de determinada idade utilidade decresce e deixa de ser competitivo mas contraraiamente a uma empresa que desaparece por dissolução ou falênciacontinua a não ser moralmente aceitável eliminar os velhos ou estropiados.