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Autor Tópico: Grécia - Tópico principal  (Lida 1840163 vezes)

Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8800 em: 2015-07-16 19:32:07 »
Isso é uma coisa minúscula tipo fundo de ajuda, e ajuda as próprias empresas (embora nisso estejas a falar similar).
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8801 em: 2015-07-16 19:41:09 »
Greece bailout revives image of the ‘cruel German’

BERLIN — A divided Germany rose from the ashes of the Nazi defeat in World War II, weathering the Cold War to transform into one of the good guys. Modern Germany quickly molded itself into the standard-bearer of global pacifism, a hotbed of youth culture and the tree-hugging Lorax of nations in the fight against climate change.

But, just like that, the image of the “cruel German” is back.

Germany — more specifically, its chancellor, Angela Merkel — has faced years of derision for driving a hard bargain with financially broken Greece, which has received billions in bailouts since 2010. But for both Germany and Merkel, the concessions extracted this week to open fresh rescue talks with Athens appear to have struck a global nerve. By insisting on years more of tough cuts and making other demands that critics have billed as humiliating, Berlin is wiping out decades of hard-won goodwill.

In the aftermath of the deal with Greece, the hashtag #Boycottgermany — calling on users not to buy German products — has started trending on Twitter. Referencing Hannibal Lecter, the cannibal from “Silence of the Lambs,” Europeans are sharing caricatures depicting Merkel as a Greece-eating “Angela Lecter.”



A cartoon portraying Wolfgang Schäuble — Merkel’s even-harder-line finance minister — as a knife-wielding killer from the Islamic State militant group has gone viral.



Germany was one of more than a dozen nations that insisted on a tough deal with Greece. But Britain’s Daily Mail singled out Germany, saying Greece had surrendered to austerity “with a German gun at his head.”

In the United States, New York Times columnist Paul Krugman this week noted the hate mail he had received from Germany for repeatedly criticizing its tough line on fiscal reforms. The Germans, he wrote, had suggested that as a Jew, he should know “the dangers of demonizing a people.” To that, Krugman responded with sarcasm: “Because criticizing a nation’s economic ideology is just like declaring its people subhuman.”

In Greece, those actively supporting the austerity deal are being heckled by their countrymen as “Nazi collaborators.” Another image making the rounds on social media shows a doctored version of the European Union flag, its circle of gold stars against a blue background reshaped into a swastika.

France’s daily Le Figaro declared that “conditions were imposed on a small member state that would have previously required arms.” In a commentary that sneered at Merkel’s “half smile” after the deal was reached, Britain’s Guardian newspaper argued that rather than being cruel to be kind, the terms of the bailout were simply “cruel to be cruel.”

In its online edition, even Germany’s own Der Spiegel magazine decried the Berlin-led demands as “the catalogue of cruelties.”

In a country that can be highly sensitive about its brutal past, some Germans are beside themselves. On Friday, the German parliament is set to vote on whether to green-light the rescue talks with Greece under the new onerous terms. It is expected to vote yes. In any case, some argue, the damage to Germany’s image has been done.

“Merkel, Schäuble and [Vice Chancellor Sigmar] Gabriel in two and a half days burned the trust that had been built over 25 years,” Reinhard Bütikofer, a German politician from the progressive Green Party, declared during an emotional outburst on local television. “The heartless, dictatorial and ugly Germany again has a face, and that is Schäuble.”

He finished by saying, “I am upset, as you can see, very upset.”

But much of the nation seems to be taking the latest round of German-bashing in stride.

Indeed, many here see it as simply further evidence that no matter what they do, theirs is always going to be the country that others love to hate. This is a nation where rules will not be broken, where pedestrians wait for a green signal at empty intersections before they cross. And that is the way the Germans like it.

That mind-set, many here insist, has helped Germany rebuild into an efficient, competitive and modern economy that is the envy of all Europe today. As the largest economy and de facto leader of the 19-member euro zone, Germany has rules that many here believe must be respected. They find it disturbing, even insulting, that some would equate German calls for fiscal restraint with the inhumanity of the Nazis.

If some Germans have chided Merkel and Schäuble, even more have expressed support. “Now we are saying no,” declared the conservative German tabloid Bild, referencing the recent Greek referendum on austerity. One German user on Twitter dared the rest of the world to boycott German products: “Go ahead. Boycott all german goods. cars, aspirin, beer, chip cards, printed media and antibiotics. Have fun.”

Some here submit that Germany’s firm stance on Greek debt may actually work in its favor. Christian Rieck, a professor of economic theory at the Frankfurt University of Applied Sciences, said the tough posture will help because it shows Germany’s “ability to follow through.”

And, perhaps most important for the chancellor, Merkel is getting pats on the back from German voters. Walter Dombrovski, a 51-year old graphic designer in Berlin, said, “We have to stay tough.”

“There are rules,” he said. “Nobody pays any taxes in Greece. Not just the rich, also the little people don’t pay taxes. And they carry a bundle of cash in their pocket at all times. Corruption is a part of everyday life there.”

But others here believe Germany is being shortsighted and heading down a dangerous path of disunity with the rest of the continent.

Martin Glaser, a 51-year old Berliner who works in public relations, said: “I think it is a scandal. To humiliate a country in this way is not acceptable.”

“Even though the polls show that there is widespread support for Merkel and Schäuble, I think that many Germans would say that they don’t want this kind of Europe,” he said. “A Europe which is ruled by Germany in this way is not the democratic Europe that I would like to have.”

washington post
« Última modificação: 2015-07-16 19:44:16 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

tommy

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8802 em: 2015-07-16 19:59:15 »
"Dá-me já o teu dinheiro, senão vou considerar que me estás a humilhar!! JÁAA!!!! "

Para rir... ridiculo!!!  :D


Mas agora está o alemão a controlar. Acabou a festa.



Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8803 em: 2015-07-16 20:16:08 »
What Europe Wants :  To use global issues as excuses to extend its power:

--- environmental issues: increase control over member countries;advance idea of global governance
--- terrorism: use excuse for greater control over police and judicial issues; increase extent of surveillance
--- global financial crisis: kill two birds (free market; Anglo-Saxon economies) with one stone (Europe-wide regulator; attempts at global financial governance)
--- EMU: create a crisis to force introduction of “European economic government”

The Global Economic Crisis and the EMU Crisis

• The global crisis is the result of inter temporal misallocation(Greenspan; EMU).
• In effect, there has been a global Ponzi game.
• In Europe, this was intensified by the myth that “current accounts don’t matter in a monetary union”: EMU is the biggest credit bubble of them all.
• The treaty says that government should have the same credit status as private sector borrowers.
• Monetary union means greater economic instability.
• These two factors should mean a worsened credit standing in EMU, yet government bond spreads actually diminished in EMU and ratings agencies actually upgraded governments.

Bond spreads in EMU (ver aqui) no fim do artigo)

When the bubble bursts…

• A collapsing credit bubble in the world means collapsing domestic demand in deficit countries (e.g. US, Britain, Balkans,Baltics – and several euro-area countries)
•  In the US, and to some extent Britain, domestic demand is beingsupported by rate cuts and, in the US, by a fiscal stimulus
•  In the affected euro-area countries, it isn’t
•  In the absence of support for domestic demand, affected countries will be forced into an improvement in net exports via improved competitiveness
•  In the US and Britain, this is happening through currency depreciation; in the euro area it isn’t.

Current account imbalances in euro area rival the US ((ver aqui) no fim do artigo))

And the implied real exchange rate movements are enormous…

•  Obstfeld and Rogoff saw a need for perhaps a 65% real effective exchange rate move for the US if current account adjustment were sudden (e.g., after a housing collapse).

•  The effect is linear in the size of the current account deficit relative to the size of the traded goods sector, so for the four large euro-area deficit countries we get the required real exchange rate movements as:

--- Greece: 94%
--- Spain: 55%
--- Portugal 36%
--- Italy: 9%
--- France 15%

…meaning huge required inflation differentials between blocs within the euro area

• If the ECB tries to avoid depression in the deficit bloc (i.e.,keeps its inflation rate at, say, 3%) and the deficit countries as a bloc (equivalent to about 2/3 of euro-area GDP) have to improve competitiveness by, say, 30%, over a five-year period, then that would involve euro depreciation of 50% and (with1/3 pass-through into German Bloc CPI)
a rise of 17% (almost 3½% a year) German Bloc price level, taking German Bloc inflation to around 6½% for five years.

•  If instead the ECB tried to keep euro-area inflation at 2% (and nochange in the euro), all the competitiveness change would have to come from Latin Bloc deflation; that would almost certainly involve a horrible depression, financial chaos, widespread default, social distress and possibly political instability.

• But this would mean substantial euro-area deflation, too, so hitting the euro-area target must involve substantial euro depreciation and a substantial increase in German Bloc inflation.

• These are all first-round calculations – they do not take account of wage-price spirals in the German Bloc as economies overheat.

Things are even worse for individual countries

• If the ECB decides to avoid depression, deflation and default in the weakest country (Greece), the required depreciation of the euro would be enormous and German Bloc inflation would be well into double digits for several years.

•  If weak countries have, individually, little political influence, it will be hard for them to get the ECB to bail them out via low interest rates and a weak euro.

•  But if there is no ECB bailout, vulnerable economies face catastrophe.

Is there an other way out?

• Current account deficits can be closed without a corresponding reduction in the trade deficit if current transfers are big enough.

• The treaty prohibits a takeover of a country’s public debt, but does not prohibit additional transfers to support private spending.

• The ECB is in effect already helping some banking systems by accepting increasingly risky collateral (but note that this may be helping German, Dutch/Belgian banks as well as, say, Spanish banks – note public disagreement between Mersch and Weber).

•  But the numbers involved in a complete fiscal bailout would be staggering: eliminating current-account deficits within the euro area by fiscal bailouts would require the surplus countries (the German Bloc) to make payments equivalent to 16% of their total government revenues (7% of their GDP)

How do markets react?

•  The cost to the German Bloc of avoiding catastrophe in the weak countries would be very substantial indeed : either prolonged high inflation or very large,  permanent transfers.

• In the end, this may be what happens, given the grandiose geopolitical ambitions for “Europe”.

•  But there can be no certainty about that; so the other alternatives – catastrophe in weak economies, almost certainly involving widespread default and severe strains on banking systems, or EMU withdrawals must have non-negligible probabilities.

•  Given that, once the market comes to understand the choices, the risk of a sudden funding run on banking systems in weak economies is very real – hence the build-up of “war chests” of dubious collateral for ECB refinancing.
« Última modificação: 2015-07-16 20:29:34 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8804 em: 2015-07-16 20:17:17 »
deu um trabalhão mas está aqui a apresentação do Connolly, em bruto.

a razão pela qual a transcrevi foi o facto desta apresentação ter sido feita em 2008. a percentagem de acerto, sete anos depois, é fabulosa.

o Moppie e o Inc, decidiram comentar/refutar a apresentação, ou antes algumas ideias implícitas na apresentação.
o facto é que alguma das ideias no artigo do ZH, eram do próprio ZH e não do Connoly.
como já disse o que me impressionou e por isso postei, foi a qualidade previsional do autor. É de fazer caír o queixo.

mas como houve/há alguma discordância, quer do Moppie quer do Inc, decidi expurgar a apresentação de tudo o que não fosse escrito pelo seu autor.
a partir daqui podemos então debater com mais facilidade.

L
« Última modificação: 2015-07-16 20:23:52 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Pedro.J50

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8805 em: 2015-07-16 22:38:13 »
No que refere  aos cartoons , por  essas  e outras é que teria sido preferivel a saida da Grecia do Euro.
Acabava-se a relação entre a Alemanha maléfica e a pobre Grecia.

Hà aqui um duplo mal entendido.
Os alemães dão o dinheiro contrariados.
E os Gregos recebem-no dizendo que estão a ser assassinados.
Isto não faz sentido.

Esta é relação perversa .
Imagine que a Grecia saía do Euro.

Ambos ficavam mais  felizes (aparentemente).

A Alemanha deixava de emprestar nas condições que empresta.
E a Grecia podia não pagar à vontade : Já estava fora do Euro..;

Havia um reset.

« Última modificação: 2015-07-16 22:38:45 por Pedro.J50 »

Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8806 em: 2015-07-16 22:44:13 »
Citar
É oficial. Bancos reabrem na segunda-feira

Os bancos na Grécia, fechados desde o dia 29 de junho, vão reabrir na segunda-feira, mas os depositantes só vão poder levantar 60 euros por dia, disse nesta quinta-feira o ministro-adjunto das Finanças, Dimitris Mardas, informa a Lusa.

“A partir de segunda-feira, as pessoas podem ir aos bancos e fazer todas as operações”, afirmou o ministro na televisão pública grega, salientando que os levantamentos mantêm-se limitados a 60 euros diários.
Observador

Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8807 em: 2015-07-17 02:10:12 »
Bernard Connolly: The man who predicted the euro crisis
By: Merryn Somerset Webb
31/01/2013

When Bernard Connolly wrote his book – The Rotten Heart of Europe – nearly 18 years ago, you could pick up a copy for a few pounds. If you’d tried to buy one as a Christmas present last year, you would have had to fork out more like £1,000. Why? Because Connolly was right.

His 1995 book (reissued this month) pointed out the underlying flaws in the idea of a European monetary union, called it a threat to freedom and democracy, and predicted a nasty endgame. As this began to happen, the price of the book began to rise. I wonder if any of this surprises him?

It doesn’t. The Rotten Heart of Europe may look prophetic, but “it was really stating the bleeding obvious”. It’s just that, back then, “lots of people didn’t want to see or recognise the bleeding obvious”. Now they have to.

Has the eurozone been a mess in the way he expected? Completely. It was “badly constructed”, because the people who constructed it didn’t care about economics, only about politics. The plan from day one was to “put in place a mechanism” that would force Europe’s countries into a political union. Anyone who doesn’t believe that must believe instead that “these people were so blind, incompetent, and stupid that they should never have been allowed to be in charge of a whelk stall”.

What will happen next? If you want the euro to hold, there are two routes: the German route of a fiscal union “in which the Germans set rules that everyone else has to follow”; or a transfer union in which everyone else “puts their hands in Germany’s pocket”. You can’t have both.

Of course, the Germans might accept the idea of making transfers to other countries as long as “they made the rules work in such a way that there would never be a need for transfers”. How might that work? I ask. It probably couldn’t – there may even in principle “be no economic solution” to the euro problem – but that won’t stop Germany thinking it could.

The key to grasping this, says Connolly, is to look not at government finances (as we mostly do), but at each nation’s balance sheet (the current account). If you want to make things work, you have to find a way to balance the current account with full employment.

Spain has almost eliminated its current-account deficit (brought its imports down to a level similar to its exports). But this has been more about crushing internal demand than growing exports – hence the 27% unemployment. So there is still a huge “full-employment current-account deficit”.

To sort that out, you must balance this compression of demand with improving competitiveness – so that more Spanish goods are consumed internally and externally. Normally this is straightforward: your currency falls and the job is done. In a monetary union you end up with “internal devaluation” (basically a nasty euphemism for forcing down wages, which pushes up the real value of debt along the way).

But even if this was possible – and given the social unrest it comes with, it may not be – there’s no saying that it can work. The process of internal devaluation pushes down internal demand further and “as you depress demand more, you need to improve competitiveness more to restore growth in employment”. You can get to the point “under which this process never converges”. It just spirals down. That’s why residential mortgage arrears are rising fast and unemployment has quadrupled.

Things will get a lot worse. The path of long-term unemployment – “the deer moving through the snake” – is very disturbing. However strong family networks are, and “however hard your granny or your auntie tries to pay your mortgage for you”, eventually it can’t be done. If we keep on this path, “mortgages will become simply impossible to service in Spain”.

There is also a huge oversupply of houses, to the extent that “it’s been very hard to believe the official data on…prices over the last few years”. The upshot is that Spain is in “deep trouble”. There has been no real improvement in the full-employment current-account deficit since 2007/2008. “They are not going to be able to do it.” The recent optimism about Spanish banks? “Delusional.”


I wonder, when it seems so clear that internal devaluation is so unlikely to work, why the Germans are pushing so hard for more of it. “They understand monetary union less well than just about anyone else.” Perhaps they are blinded by how well it has worked for Germany? It has worked well “for some people”, says Connolly.

It has worked for exporters, and for the banks during the boom, when they lent everyone else the money to buy German products. It effectively became a vendor-financing operation to the rest of Europe. But while German exporters are still fine, the banks aren’t doing so well.

Is there any way out? What if he were in charge? Spain would have to leave. You “could imagine there being a northern block of the surplus countries of Germany, the Netherlands, Finland, Austria”. A northern currency would soar, but at least Germany wouldn’t face “having to dole out 10% of its GDP every year” in a transfer union. And it could deal with the rising currency by stimulating domestic demand – which would help with the “global adjustment process”.

The problem is France, which hasn’t got a current-account surplus and does have a “competitiveness problem”. Economically, it can’t live with the German block, but it is unlikely to end up leading a “rival Latin block” either. That’s why France is “so desperate to keep all the others in” and hang on to the myth that it holds some power within the union as it stands.

So it is really France that is working to hold the union together? “Yes,” says Connolly. But it can’t. “Who knows how long it takes”, but in the end the weaker members “have to go”. Would it help for the European Central Bank (ECB) to loosen monetary policy? “They have already done so to a considerable degree.” You can’t get Spain, Portugal, Greece, and “even France” into balance without “destroying their economies”, so in the end you have two choices: “you can recreate the bubble, or you have the transfer union”.

It is clear that, if it must, Germany would prefer to “recreate the bubble through the ECB”. But this can never be more than a stop-gap. One day “the bubble becomes the economy… there is no productive capital left”, and the Ponzi scheme of constantly loosening monetary policy ends.

I ask about his idea that monetary union is a threat to freedom and peace. He doesn’t, he says, mean there are likely to be “Panzer battles on the plains”. Instead, he sees the union as part of a “deliberate attempt to break down a political sense of national identity”. It is this that he sees ending in social unrest.

Human beings need a “focus of belonging”. If they don’t get it via their nation, they end up “viewing themselves as belonging to a religious sect… or a racial or linguistic group”. You “can’t have a civilised, peaceful democratic society on that basis”. The EU, in “attempting to destroy traditional structures, institutions and modes of thought”, is “destroying… civilisation”.

Our meeting took place just before David Cameron’s big Europe speech. Does Connolly see any point in the EU for Britain? Not really. If you go back to the start, you can see why people thought it made sense for Britain to be in the single market. But look again today and it isn’t clear.

“In the late 1950s, there were protectionist barriers everywhere.” It was an “explicitly, aggressively protectionist system”. That’s not the case now. So the external environment has changed to our advantage. And the internal? Massively to our disadvantage. The EU is stealing freedom and destroying civilisation: the endless “stupid rules” and the sacrifice of our democracy are too big a price to pay. “If we started now, we certainly wouldn’t join.” So why stay?

Who is Bernard Connolly?

Oxford-educated economist Bernard Connolly made headlines when he lost his job at the European Commission in 1995, after writing The Rotten Heart of Europe: The Dirty War for Europe’s Money. The book (now re-issued by Faber & Faber, price £14.99) attacked the European Exchange-Rate Mechanism (the euro’s precursor), arguing it was part of a plan to force a greater degree of political and economic integration than popular opinion would support.

The Times’s Anatole Kaletsky called the book “the most intellectually persuasive, economically coherent and politically prescient account yet published of the development of European institutions in the 1990s”. In 2001, Connolly received the Frøde Jakobsen prize, awarded in Denmark for ‘outstanding moral courage in public affairs’.

After a predictably unsuccessful complaint against the European Commission in the European Court of Justice, Connolly joined AIG Trading Group. After 11 years working for AIG units, he went on to found economics consultancy Connolly Insight, where his analysis is highly sought-after. Future Bank of England head Mark Carney specifically mentioned him as one of the very few economists to predict the global financial crisis.

fonte
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8808 em: 2015-07-17 03:00:44 »
Greece Might Be Better Off Outside Eurozone, German Finance Minister Says

BERLIN — Despite bitter opposition in many quarters to the austerity-first policies Germany has imposed on Europe’s poorer nations, Chancellor Angela Merkel’s government has hung on to its role as champion of integration on the Continent through deft use of diplomacy and the country’s economic clout.

But in negotiating a new deal this week to bail out Greece, Germany displayed what many Europeans saw as a harder, more selfish edge, demanding painful measures from Athens and resisting any firm commitment to granting Greece relief from its crippling debt. And that perception was fueled on Thursday when the German finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, suggested that Greece would get its best shot at a substantial cut in its debt only if it was willing to give up membership in the European common currency.

Mr. Schäuble stressed that he was not pushing the Greeks to take any particular course and that in any case he was only talking about a temporary exit from the euro. But coming a day before German lawmakers are to give the go-ahead to negotiate the details of the bailout package for Athens, his remarks were evidence of a continuing deep ambivalence among conservatives in Germany about the costs of keeping Greece in the currency zone and a greater willingness to question whether the goal of “ever-closer union” in Europe should be reassessed.

Many in Germany still support the idea that keeping Greece in the eurozone is important for the future of the European Union, and German lawmakers are expected to support the new bailout plan, agreed to by European leaders early Monday after a contentious weekend of negotiations, when it comes up for a vote in Berlin on Friday.

But Mr. Schäuble’s reminder that another option exists — the second time he had raised the idea this week — came as close partners like France were expressing greater willingness to help Greece and some Germans are uneasy that their finance minister’s handling of the situation has hurt their reputation in Europe and around the world.

Critics of the German-led austerity policies have called for boycotts of German products and have suggested that Ms. Merkel and Mr. Schäuble had unjustifiably humiliated Greece and its prime minister, Alexis Tsipras. Italy’s prime minister, Matteo Renzi, said of the German stance over the weekend, “Enough is enough.”

Speaking in Berlin after meeting with members of the center-left Social Democratic Party, Jeroen Dijsselbloem of the Netherlands, the leader of the eurozone finance ministers, criticized Mr. Schäuble for raising the suggestion of a Greek exit. “If you reach an agreement after such long and hard talks, you have to stand behind it,” he said. “And that goes for all sides.”

But within Germany, there is still strong backing for being tough on Greece, or even seeing it leave the euro rather than undermine the common currency’s chances of thriving in the future. Mr. Schäuble made his remarks in a radio interview hours after the Greek Parliament voted reluctantly to approve the first set of austerity measures demanded by its European creditors in return for a chance to negotiate the new bailout package, its third in five years. And his remarks came as some Greek officials asserted that he has been in favor of Greece leaving the euro all along.

“It is beginning to look like a very dirty game that he is playing,” Johannes Kahrs, a Social Democratic lawmaker, said of Mr. Schäuble.

Mr. Schäuble emphasized that no one was trying to dictate to Greece how it should proceed. But he made a case that forgiving a substantial amount of Greece’s public debt of more than 300 billion euros, or about $330 billion, was not compatible with membership in the eurozone.

“We have not said that we will impose this, we can’t, we don’t want to, and no one has suggested it, but it would perhaps be the better way for Greece,” Mr. Schäuble said in the interview with Deutschlandfunk radio on Thursday when asked about allowing Greece to take a time out from the eurozone.

He also questioned whether the package Greece was seeking would be enough to bring the country’s financial situation back into a manageable position. “Nobody knows in the moment how it is supposed to happen without debt relief, but everyone knows that debt relief is not possible within the eurozone,” he said.

His position appeared to be based on European rules that are not interpreted as strictly by other nations, or by the International Monetary Fund, which called this week for deeper debt relief for Greece than Europe has been willing to consider. European rules for membership in the euro, such as those on budget deficits, are routinely skirted or broken.

Mr. Schäuble’s hard-line views on austerity and debt are not limited to him, or even to Germany. Much of Eastern Europe and a number of conservative northern countries share his view that Greece has been profligate and should get further aid only under the strictest conditions.

But more than anyone, Mr. Schäuble has come to embody the consensus that has helped shape European economic policy for years: that the path to sustained economic recovery for financially troubled countries is to slash spending, raise taxes when necessary and win back the trust of bond markets and other investors by displaying commitment to fiscal prudence — even if that process imposes deep economic pain as it plays out. Supporters point to Ireland, Portugal and Spain as nations that have bounced back to varying degrees after austerity programs; critics point to Greece, which has remained economically troubled.

Germany’s finance minister since the Greek crisis erupted in 2010, Mr. Schäuble is known as resilient and forceful, with a Germanic embrace of the rules and a Nietzschean attitude of “That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.” He has held offices in four governments, serving as Helmut Kohl’s chief of staff and Ms. Merkel’s interior and finance minister. Even an attempt on his life in 1990 that left him using a wheelchair kept him from the political stage for less than a year.

Ms. Merkel has ruled out forgiving any of Greece’s debt but has left the door open to a new negotiation over extending the payment terms or reducing interest rates to help bring down Greece’s annual debt payments. But the I.M.F. and some other countries, including the United States, are pressing for Germany to lead Europe in doing more.

“I think the I.M.F. raising the debt sustainability issue as clearly as they did, the United States making clear that sustainability had to be dealt with, was a helpful contribution to the conversation, because without dealing with some form of debt restructuring, this problem will just come right back,” a senior United States Treasury official said on Thursday, as Treasury Secretary Jack Lew traveled through Europe.

Still, some conservative German lawmakers have indicated ahead of Friday’s vote reservations about whether they believe Greece fully meets the conditions required to tap aid from the European Union’s bailout fund, much less qualifies for debt relief.

At a vote to extend the previous bailout package in February, a record number of dissenters from the chancellor’s conservative camp showed growing impatience with the anti-austerity government in Athens, with 29 voting against it. An additional 109 among about 310 conservative lawmakers indicated reservations, although they went along with the vote.

Mr. Schäuble signaled on Thursday that it might be difficult to reduce the burden of Greece’s debt payments sufficiently without some debt forgiveness — a step he said could not be taken while Greece is a member of the currency union.

“The more difficult question will be to reach sustainability of the debt, whether a package that is large enough can be agreed upon without any debt reduction,” Mr. Schäuble said. “Then we are back in the situation that debt reduction is not allowed in the eurozone.”

Some analysts said Mr. Schäuble’s discussion of a “temporary” exit from the eurozone for Greece was a veiled attempt to push it out of the 19-member currency union for good. Sony Kapoor, an analyst at Re-Define, a research group, recalled Mr. Schäuble expressing similar thoughts in 2012.

“The idea behind couching it in temporary terms is to make it sound less onerous and a bit more compliant with the legal situation,” Mr. Kapoor said. “There is nothing as permanent as a temporary divorce.”

nyt
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
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Pedro.J50

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8809 em: 2015-07-17 03:08:16 »
Bernard Connolly: The man who predicted the euro crisis
By: Merryn Somerset Webb
31/01/2013


His 1995 book (reissued this month) pointed out the underlying flaws in the idea of a European monetary union, called it a threat to freedom and democracy, and predicted a nasty endgame. ........

The key to grasping this, says Connolly, is to look not at government finances (as we mostly do), but at each nation’s balance sheet (the current account). If you want to make things work, you have to find a way to balance the current account with full employment.

Spain has almost eliminated its current-account deficit (brought its imports down to a level similar to its exports). But this has been more about crushing internal demand than growing exports – hence the 27% unemployment. So there is still a huge “full-employment current-account deficit”.

To sort that out, you must balance this compression of demand with improving competitiveness – so that more Spanish goods are consumed internally and externally. Normally this is straightforward: your currency falls and the job is done. In a monetary union you end up with “internal devaluation” (basically a nasty euphemism for forcing down wages, which pushes up the real value of debt along the way).

But even if this was possible – and given the social unrest it comes with, it may not be – there’s no saying that it can work. The process of internal devaluation pushes down internal demand further and “as you depress demand more, you need to improve competitiveness more to restore growth in employment”. You can get to the point “under which this process never converges”. It just spirals down. That’s why residential mortgage arrears are rising fast and unemployment has quadrupled.

Things will get a lot worse. The path of long-term unemployment – “the deer moving through the snake” – is very disturbing. However strong family networks are, and “however hard your granny or your auntie tries to pay your mortgage for you”, eventually it can’t be done. ............
Is there any way out? What if he were in charge? Spain would have to leave. You “could imagine there being a northern block of the surplus countries of Germany, the Netherlands, Finland, Austria”. A northern currency would soar, but at least Germany wouldn’t face “having to dole out 10% of its GDP every year” in a transfer union. And it could deal with the rising currency by stimulating domestic demand – which would help with the “global adjustment process”.

The problem is France, which hasn’t got a current-account surplus and does have a “competitiveness problem”. Economically, it can’t live with the German block, but it is unlikely to end up leading a “rival Latin block” either. That’s why France is “so desperate to keep all the others in” and hang on to the myth that it holds some power within the union as it stands.

So it is really France that is working to hold the union together? “Yes,” says Connolly. But it can’t. “Who knows how long it takes”, but in the end the weaker members “have to go”. Would it help for the European Central Bank (ECB) to loosen monetary policy? “They have already done so to a considerable degree.” You can’t get Spain, Portugal, Greece, and “even France” into balance without “destroying their economies”, so in the end you have two choices: “you can recreate the bubble, or you have the transfer union”.

It is clear that, if it must, Germany would prefer to “recreate the bubble through the ECB”. But this can never be more than a stop-gap. One day “the bubble becomes the economy… there is no productive capital left”, and the Ponzi scheme of constantly loosening monetary policy ends.



fonte


Muito interessante.

Percebi o artigo, julgo eu.

O programa da união europeia para investir biliões até 2020, é uma tentativa para criar emprego .

Julgo que o Banco Central Europeu está a tentar estimular a economia através do quantitative easing que é  comprar aos bancos dos paises endividados ,obrigações desses paises para aumentar o credito que os bancos dão às pessoas e empresas.

( Julgo que não estou enganado).

Será que resulta ? Duvido.

O Lark que me aponte algum erro se estou a errar.




Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8810 em: 2015-07-17 03:24:31 »
a tragédia ainda não acabou.
O schauble insiste na ideia da saída da grécia da zona euro ao mesmo tempo que reconhece a insustentabilidade da dívida.
E que não pode haver perdão da dívida dentro da eurozona.

o schauble quer mesmo que a grécia saia e na minha opinião não é por ser mauzinho.
é por reconhecer que dentro do euro não há possibilidade de alguma vez a Grécia voltar a prosperar.

implicitamente reconhece que a desvalorização e o perdão da dívida é o único caminho.

o schauble não é o mau da fita. é o mais realista de todos, pelos vistos. mudei completamente de opinião em relação a ele.
como diz o connoly é a frança que quer por força manter a grécia no euro. para que não seja posto em causa um projecto em que tanto se empenhou.

na minha opinião não é esse o motivo; também a itália esteve ao lado da frança no grande regateio de bruxelas.

o motivo é que tanto o hollande como o renzi não querem que aconteça aos partidos deles o mesmo que aconteceu ao pasok.
o pasok desapareceu na prática. a ND perdeu as eleições mas não se desfez. a direita à partida tem o seu eleitorado mais ou menos seguro e mantém a capacidade de ser alternativa de governo.

o pasok é que não. morreu!

a alternativa à direita, na grécia, é agora o syriza.

o maior pesadelo para o hollande, o renzi, o sanchez do PSOE e o costa do nosso PS, é acontecer a mesma coisa em frança, itália, espanha e portugal.
que a esquerda radical passe a ser a alternativa ao bloco de direita e que o centro-esquerda social-democrata se esfume como se esfumou o pasok.

são esses que estão a negar a realidade e a impedir que a grécia saia do euro, desvalorize e reestruture a dívida.
porque sabem que a grécia teria êxito nesse projecto.
e se a grécia tivesse êxito, os partidos social-democratas do bloco latino, ficavam em perigo de vida.
a alternativa aos blocos de direita gravitaria para a esquerda radical e o centro esquerda nunca mais seria alternativa de governo.

o schauble está-se borrifando. o seu eleitorado estará sempre seguro e se o SPD alemão também se fornicar, melhor ainda para ele.

fantabulástico....

L
« Última modificação: 2015-07-17 03:27:42 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Pedro.J50

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8811 em: 2015-07-17 03:47:50 »
a tragédia ainda não acabou.
O schauble insiste na ideia da saída da grécia da zona euro ao mesmo tempo que reconhece a insustentabilidade da dívida.
E que não pode haver perdão da dívida dentro da eurozona.

o schauble quer mesmo que a grécia saia e na minha opinião não é por ser mauzinho.
é por reconhecer que dentro do euro não há possibilidade de alguma vez a Grécia voltar a prosperar.

implicitamente reconhece que a desvalorização e o perdão da dívida é o único caminho.

o schauble não é o mau da fita. é o mais realista de todos, pelos vistos.

L

É isso mesmo.
O ministro alemão já percebeu que a Grecia será um problema permanente.
No de se perdoar a divida à Grecia.., outros paises pedirão o mesmo.
E aí o problema  aumenta.
No caso de não se perdoar..,é a depressão económica.
( e porque não podem desvalorizar o seu euro, esses paises têm mais dificuldade em recuperar )

O melhor mesmo é a saída dos muitos endividados , pensa Schlaube .
A  alemanha livra-se deles.
E talvez esses paises consigam recuperar, desvalorizando a moeda.

(digo talvez).

« Última modificação: 2015-07-17 03:49:16 por Pedro.J50 »

Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8812 em: 2015-07-17 04:08:57 »
O programa da união europeia para investir biliões até 2020, é uma tentativa para criar emprego .

Julgo que o Banco Central Europeu está a tentar estimular a economia através do quantitative easing que é  comprar aos bancos dos paises endividados ,obrigações desses paises para aumentar o credito que os bancos dão às pessoas e empresas.

( Julgo que não estou enganado).

Será que resulta ? Duvido.
O Lark que me aponte algum erro se estou a errar.

eu vejo a coisa assim:

tanto o QE do ECB como o plano de investimentos da comissão europeia (que não me parece que saia alguma vez do papel) são tentativas de reflacionar a economia.

se não houver reflação, os PIGS saiem saem do euro sem apelo nem agravo. pode demorar mais ou menos tempo mas vai acontecer.

portanto estamos num cenário reflacionário que tem como protagonistas o draghi e o junker.
se conseguirem reflacionar a sério (duvido) teremos uma situação parecida à de antes da crise.
a alemanha a exportar e os PIGS a comprarem a crédito. a alemanha não diria que não a exportar mais uns biliões para os periféricos. como exportou até 2008.
as balanças comerciais continuavam desequilibradas.

o problema é que outra crise, mesmo que pequena e voltamos ao mesmo cenário de miséria que temos agora. acaba-se o crédito,fica a dívida, regressa a deflação.
os alemães, prudentes, não querem isso.

a única alternativa que se lhes apresenta é uma união fiscal.
em que haveria transferências net do centro para a periferia.
a alemanha teria que pagar uns quantos porcento do seu GDP, todos os anos, para manter a a união a funcionar.
também não é um cenário que lhes interesse.

só interessaria se detivessem as rédeas das economias periféricas e pudessem ser a eles a geri-las. uma união política e económica.

mas os eleitorados europeus já disseram que não a isso, muito claramente. e em frança e na holanda, pilares da união.

é um beco sem saída.

por isso só lhes resta esperar que o draghi e o junker tenham êxito na sua reflação, para que no ponto alto da bolha ou talvez antes, para não ficarem mal na fotografia, serem eles a sair da moeda única.

a alternativa é sairem os PIGS. mas acho que os alemães já se aperceberam que o euro é uma camisa de forças mesmo para eles.

por isso de uma maneira ou outra vai rebentar:

ou saem primeiro os PIGS e talvez se aguente mais uns tempos;
ou o draghi e o junker conseguem reflacionar a economia, gerando uma nova bolha de crédto, e os alemães saem quando as economias do sul estiverem a crescer.

voltam para o marco, este valoriza-se para caraças, mas eles aproveitam para estimular o consumo interno.
se os PIGS forem espertos aproveitam para reequilibrar a balança comercial e talvez não acabe tudo numa crise outra vez.

os franceses é que ficam à toa no meio disto tudo. não querem ser os chefes do bloco latino, mas não querem acompanhar a alemanha na saída do euro.
então vão usando a sua influência para manter o status quo. por isso em parte se opuseram duramente à saída da Grécia.
a verdadeira razão (para mim) está no outro post que escrevi.

e uhh... é isto;
não estava à espera de escrever um post tão longo.
é esta a minha interpretação do que diz o connolly.

L
« Última modificação: 2015-07-17 04:11:51 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Pedro.J50

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8813 em: 2015-07-17 04:57:52 »
de uma maneira ou outra vai rebentar:

ou saem primeiro os PIGS e talvez se aguente mais uns tempos;
ou o draghi e o junker conseguem reflacionar a economia, gerando uma nova bolha de crédto, e os alemães saem quando as economias do sul estiverem a crescer.

voltam para o marco, este valoriza-se para caraças, mas eles aproveitam para estimular o consumo interno.
..........
é esta a minha interpretação do que diz o connolly.

L

Muito Obrigado.
Não é um cenário animador , aquele que se perspectiva.

PS : Tomei a liberdade de  só citar uns excertos da mensagem  a que respondo;
Espero que esses  excertos tenham  conseguido transmitir o essencial da mensagem do Lark.

« Última modificação: 2015-07-17 05:01:21 por Pedro.J50 »

Reg

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8814 em: 2015-07-17 08:38:44 »
de uma maneira ou outra vai rebentar:

ou saem primeiro os PIGS e talvez se aguente mais uns tempos;
ou o draghi e o junker conseguem reflacionar a economia, gerando uma nova bolha de crédto, e os alemães saem quando as economias do sul estiverem a crescer.

voltam para o marco, este valoriza-se para caraças, mas eles aproveitam para estimular o consumo interno.
..........
é esta a minha interpretação do que diz o connolly.

L

Muito Obrigado.
Não é um cenário animador , aquele que se perspectiva.

PS : Tomei a liberdade de  só citar uns excertos da mensagem  a que respondo;
Espero que esses  excertos tenham  conseguido transmitir o essencial da mensagem do Lark.

economias endividadas com maioria das pessoas receber pensoes.
 vai crescer daqui a quantos anos!?
« Última modificação: 2015-07-17 08:40:12 por Reg »
Democracia Socialista Democrata. igualdade de quem berra mais O que é meu é meu o que é teu é nosso

meu-godo

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8815 em: 2015-07-17 08:43:46 »
de uma maneira ou outra vai rebentar:

ou saem primeiro os PIGS e talvez se aguente mais uns tempos;
ou o draghi e o junker conseguem reflacionar a economia, gerando uma nova bolha de crédto, e os alemães saem quando as economias do sul estiverem a crescer.

voltam para o marco, este valoriza-se para caraças, mas eles aproveitam para estimular o consumo interno.
..........
é esta a minha interpretação do que diz o connolly.

L

Muito Obrigado.
Não é um cenário animador , aquele que se perspectiva.

PS : Tomei a liberdade de  só citar uns excertos da mensagem  a que respondo;
Espero que esses  excertos tenham  conseguido transmitir o essencial da mensagem do Lark.

economias endividadas com maioria das pessoas receber pensoes.
 vai crescer daqui a quantos anos!?

Têm que tornar-se competitivos para atrair imigraçâo de qualidade. Claro que se todos fizerem o mesmo não dá, mas como isso não vai acontecer...

pedferre

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8816 em: 2015-07-17 10:10:32 »
de uma maneira ou outra vai rebentar:

ou saem primeiro os PIGS e talvez se aguente mais uns tempos;
ou o draghi e o junker conseguem reflacionar a economia, gerando uma nova bolha de crédto, e os alemães saem quando as economias do sul estiverem a crescer.

voltam para o marco, este valoriza-se para caraças, mas eles aproveitam para estimular o consumo interno.
..........
é esta a minha interpretação do que diz o connolly.

L

Muito Obrigado.
Não é um cenário animador , aquele que se perspectiva.

PS : Tomei a liberdade de  só citar uns excertos da mensagem  a que respondo;
Espero que esses  excertos tenham  conseguido transmitir o essencial da mensagem do Lark.

economias endividadas com maioria das pessoas receber pensoes.
 vai crescer daqui a quantos anos!?

Têm que tornar-se competitivos para atrair imigraçâo de qualidade. Claro que se todos fizerem o mesmo não dá, mas como isso não vai acontecer...
Qual imigração de qualidade? Viram aquelas imagens que mostraram ontem de pessoal refugiado sirio/afegao/outros às paletes (parecia peregrinações a fatima), a caminharem pelos balcas adiante a dizer que queriam ir para a austria, alemanha, suecia, etc...

itg00022289

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8817 em: 2015-07-17 10:48:07 »
...

...
em que haveria transferências net do centro para a periferia.
a alemanha teria que pagar uns quantos porcento do seu GDP, todos os anos, para manter a a união a funcionar.
...
L

Mas isso é o que hoje sucede no financiamento da UE.

O Orçamento da UE é financiado maioritariamente pelos países mais ricos.
Parte dos impostos pagos pelos contribuintes alemães (acho que entre 10 a 20%) vai para a UE que por sua vez tem programas estruturais para financiar os paises mais pobres da UE (os conhecidos fundos estruturais).

Sobre o financiamento UE:
Citar
Existem três principais fontes de receitas:

--> uma pequena percentagem do produto interno bruto (regra geral, cerca de 0,7 %) de todos os países da UE, que constitui a maior fonte de receitas do orçamento. Os princípios subjacentes são a solidariedade e a capacidade contributiva, embora o montante possa ser ajustado de modo a evitar sobrecarregar determinados países.

--> uma pequena percentagem (regra geral 0,3 %) das receitas do imposto sobre o valor acrescentado (IVA) harmonizado cobrado por cada país da UE

--> uma parte significativa dos direitos de importação sobre os produtos provenientes de países terceiros (o país que cobra o imposto fica com uma pequena percentagem)

A UE também recebe impostos sobre o salário do pessoal das instituições europeias e contribuições de países terceiros para determinados programas da UE, bem como o montante das coimas pagas pelas empresas que violam a legislação e a regulamentação europeias.
« Última modificação: 2015-07-17 11:10:26 por itg00022289 »

Castelbranco

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8818 em: 2015-07-17 12:50:39 »
Por aquilo que entendo e leio, fico com a ideia que vários chefes de estado estão a transmitir á grecia para que esta saia do euro pelo seu pé, acenando-lhes com um perdão dedivida.....

Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #8819 em: 2015-07-17 12:58:20 »
* GERMAN PARLIAMENT VOTES 439-119 IN FAVOR OF GREEK AID PACKAGE - GERMAN PARLIAMENT BACKS GREEK AID TALKS, BRIDGE FINANCING
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com