Grécia - Tópico principal

[tommy]

Greece
Tsipras Wants Money to Forget Democracy
13 Jul 10, 2015 8:02 AM EDT
By Leonid Bershidsky

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras's favorite Twitter hashtag is #democracy. On July 6, after his side won a referendum to reject creditors' terms for a continued bailout, he tweeted that #democracy had triumphed. Yet Thursday night, his government proposed a new term sheet that looks to be spit in the face of every Greek who voted "No" -- 61.31 percent of those who came to the polls. The reason: Tsipras thinks he can get more money now than he could have before the vote.

Here are all the differences in specific parameters that I've managed to find between the creditors' proposal rejected by the Greek voters and the new document from the Greek government:

    Primary fiscal surplus: No difference whatsoever: The targets remain 1 percent of gross domestic product in 2015, 2 percent in 2016, 3 percent in 2017 and 3.5 percent thereafter.
    Value-added tax reform: The new government proposal insists on a 13 percent VAT on hotels, while the creditors wanted to raise it to 23 percent. (The new document omits to mention a specific revenue-increase target for 2015, which the creditors wanted to set at 1 percent GDP.)
    Pension reform: The exact language of the creditors' proposal has been cut and pasted into the new document.
    Public financial management: The government proposal calls for the same measures as the creditors' proposal did -- including a new criminal law on tax evasion, tighter health-care spending controls, welfare system reform to generate annual savings of 0.5 percent of gross domestic product, an increase in corporate tax from 26 percent to 28 percent, a new tax on TV advertising, more luxury and property taxes, and the elimination of fuel subsidies for farmers. The only difference is that the government wants a smaller cut in defense spending -- 100 million euros this year rather than 400 million, as the creditors suggested.
    Labor market: No difference. The Greek government undertakes to bring its labor market arrangements into line with European Union best practice.
    Product markets: No difference. The same measures to cut red tape, remove restrictions and boost competitiveness are outlined in the same language.
    Privatization: The government doesn't commit to any specific revenue targets like those specified in the creditors' proposal. It merely promises to complete the sell-off processes begun by its predecessors, something the creditors also called for.

In effect, then, it appears that Greeks voted on Sunday to achieve just three things: 1) a lower VAT rate for hotels; 2) an extra 300 million euros in military spending; 3) no privatization revenue targets.

If Tsipras had formulated the referendum question that way, I doubt many voters would have turned out.

Philosopher Slavoj Zizek recently explained the Greek problem in terms of a clash between democracy and Europe's technocratic approach: "Strategic decisions based on power are more and more masked as administrative regulations based on neutral expert knowledge, and they are more and more negotiated in secrecy and enforced without democratic consultation." Tsipras's party, Syriza, in Zizek's view, is a disruptive democratic force meant to bring Europe back to its true values. He says:

    Only a new “heresy” (represented at this moment by Syriza) can save what is worth saving in European legacy: democracy, trust in people, egalitarian solidarity. The Europe that will win if Syriza is outmanoeuvred is a “Europe with Asian values” (which, of course, has nothing to do with Asia, but all with the clear and present tendency of contemporary capitalism to suspend democracy).

Tsipras's new proposal is in line with one democratic tradition. Aristophanes' "The Knights," written in the 5th century B.C., has a character named Demos, "a sour old man, quick-tempered, country-minded, bean-consuming, a trifle hard of hearing." (Some English translators have rendered the Greek name as Mr. People.) Demosthenes, his slave, thus describes a freshly purchased newcomer to the household, a certain tanner:

    He soon finds out

    Master's weak points; and cringing down before him

    Flatters, and fawns, and wheedles, and cajoles,

    With little apish leather-snippings, thus:

    O Demos, try one case, get the three-obol,

    Then take your bath, gorge, guzzle, eat your fill.

    Would you I set your supper? Then he'll seize

    A dish some other servant has prepared,

    And serve it up for master.

This is more or less what happened to the Greek voters in the past two weeks, except for the guzzling. They -- especially the poorest, who backed Tsipras in the referendum -- have been cheated by the government that they elected to fight austerity and serve as Zizek's progressive heretics on the European stage. Unless die-hard radicals in the Greek parliament today vote down the Tsipras proposal, the government will do exactly the opposite of what the people voted for: enact more austerity measures and give in to Europe's technocratic establishment.

It won't be for nothing, however. Two weeks ago, the creditors were offering Greece only an extension of the existing bailout program, in which just 7.2 billion euros remained. Now, Tsipras is agreeing to the same requirements in exchange for a three-year, 53.5 billion euro bailout. What's more, he wants to talk debt reduction, and has reason to believe he can, because the International Monetary Fund, the U.S. and some top European officials, including European Council President Donald Tusk, have voiced support for more "debt sustainability."

Tsipras has cunningly presented a gift to those who are afraid to take responsibility for letting Greece drop out of the euro. OK, so a hefty bill comes with the gift -- but it looks as if the Greeks have caved! French President Francois Hollande has already called the Greek proposal "serious, credible" and indicative of Greece's determination to remain in the euro zone.

Pay us more and we'll forget all about democracy is the offer now on the table. If German Chancellor Angela Merkel and her ruling coalition accept this, as Hollande seemingly already has, Greece will remain on European life support. And then Tsipras will see about those reforms.

[Counter Retail Trader]

Lithuanian President Dalia Grybauskaite has poured cold water on Greece's new proposals, saying they are based on "outdated information".
"It seems those proposals will really not be enough," Reuters quoted her telling reporters. "We take the document of proposals as [indicating] Greece's wish to go back to the negotiating table. It's too early to start guessing how the negotiations will end."

[Counter Retail Trader]

Fresquinho

http://video-mrs1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hvideo-xfa1/v/t43.1792-2/11425015_10153993057945016_812178119_n.mp4?efg=eyJybHIiOjE1MDAsInJsYSI6MzU2OX0%3D&rl=1500&vabr=763&oh=335a7bcc4adffb5526ed98e9ba1e11cb&oe=55A00F6D

Parece que o Tsipras levou o discurso a serio.. e agora o Guy parece mais Tsipras que o proprio     

[Royal_Highness]

Oxi-liberal,

ficava-te muito grata se me desbloqueasses as PM.

O assunto é a tributação de rendimentos do trading.

Desde já obrigada e desculpem ter postado esta mensagem neste tópico.

[Mario Balotelli]

GMCV,

enviei-te uma mensagem privada.

Como não sei se estão bloqueadas ou não achei melhor avisar aqui.

Agradeço desde já!

Respondido

[Zenith]

Isso é um argumento em que os os comunistas se iriam rever.

Os comunistas talvez. Os socialistas não. Ora, não há comunistas, só socialistas. Nem na Coreia do Norte há comunistas.

Porquê? Porque no socialismo podem existir níveis de vida brutalmente diferentes. Um Castro ou um Mao podem viver como Marajás, e servirem-se do que de melhor a terra tem para dar, incluindo súbditas para manter o líder moralizado. E toda a estrutura vive melhor do que a populaça em geral pela mesma razão.

No comunismo, não. Portanto quem quer que diga que está a lutar pelo comunismo, fica-se SEMPRE pelo socialismo. Lutar a partir daí seria lutar contra o interesse próprio.

----------

Mas de qq forma espanta-me que defendas esse tipo de desigualdade arbitrária, com base no "sentirem-se a sofrer" ainda que o sofrimento nesse caso seja irracional.

De resto, embora exista pesquisa científica que CONFIRMA esse sofrimento, existe igualmente pesquisa científica a dizer que as pessoas se adaptam rapidamente às novas circunstâncias. Aliás, adaptam-se até a circunstâncias absurdamente más, que fará a circunstâncias que são apenas aparentemente más (sem o serem, objectivamente).

Estava a referir-me ao comunismo utópico.
Trazer a desigualdade para aqui é demagógico, porque no caso da Bulgária vs Grécia nem estou a ver relação. A Grécia tem um problema financeiro, está na zona Euro, e a resolução é entre Grécia e restantes paises da zona Euro (+ FMI pq EU declarou-se ibcompetente para lidar com isso sozinha) que criaram as instituições destindaas a garantir estabilidade da moeda e resistência a choques económicos. A Bulgária ainda não está na zona euro, não faz parte do problema nem da solução e por invocar Bulgária como termo de comparação é tão valido como Etiopia (embora dada a  Bulgária e Grécia serem fronteiriças se tal significar alguma dependencia economica entre as duas até imagino que Bulgária gostasse de ver solução positiva para a Grécia).
A questão da adapatabilidade, até Camões que perdeu um olho parece que se conseguiu adaptar bem. Só com um olho até deve ter melhorado, já que tinha menos distracções e concentrava-se melhor nos Lusíadas 

[Zenith]

A segunda familia não tem que ajudar, mas não vejo o paralelo com a Grecia-Bulgária. A Bulgária não está a ajudar nem a alternativa apresentada aos gregos é de vir viver para a Bulgária (paralelo de Corroios).

A Bulgária (família mais pobre) mostra que a situação grega não é nenhuma tragédia como querem fazer crer. Basta baixar o nível de vida e ir viver para Corroios. Claro que é melhor viver numa morada mas se não há dinheiro é fazer como os vizinhos do lado.

Continuo sem perceber a relação.Se Bulgária nem está na zona Euro porque não invocar Etiopia  como o ponto de referência em vez da Bulgaria? Ou então os monges budistas. Despegam-se dos bens materiais tem consumo reduzido ao mínimo e dizem que vivem em harmonia.
Posso dar inumeros exemplos mas é escusado.É um esquema de argumentação que consiste em passar do global para o individual, apresentar aí um caso odioso, e esperar que seja generalizado para o global. Pode ajudar a confundir interlocutor mas pouco esclarece.

[Automek]

Ah, agora é só a zona euro para se aferir a pobreza ? Então e porque não zona euro mas apenas a mediterrânea. E porque não apenas quem tenham mais do que 5 ilhas ? 

Que eu saiba a Bulgária é da UE. A Etiópia não. Comparar com a Bulgária é mais aceitável do que comparar com um pais africano.

[Automek]

Zenith, também é curioso indignares-te com a comparação com a Bulgária quando tu próprio deste a comparação de perder um filho. 

[Incognitus]

Isso é um argumento em que os os comunistas se iriam rever.

Os comunistas talvez. Os socialistas não. Ora, não há comunistas, só socialistas. Nem na Coreia do Norte há comunistas.

Porquê? Porque no socialismo podem existir níveis de vida brutalmente diferentes. Um Castro ou um Mao podem viver como Marajás, e servirem-se do que de melhor a terra tem para dar, incluindo súbditas para manter o líder moralizado. E toda a estrutura vive melhor do que a populaça em geral pela mesma razão.

No comunismo, não. Portanto quem quer que diga que está a lutar pelo comunismo, fica-se SEMPRE pelo socialismo. Lutar a partir daí seria lutar contra o interesse próprio.

----------

Mas de qq forma espanta-me que defendas esse tipo de desigualdade arbitrária, com base no "sentirem-se a sofrer" ainda que o sofrimento nesse caso seja irracional.

De resto, embora exista pesquisa científica que CONFIRMA esse sofrimento, existe igualmente pesquisa científica a dizer que as pessoas se adaptam rapidamente às novas circunstâncias. Aliás, adaptam-se até a circunstâncias absurdamente más, que fará a circunstâncias que são apenas aparentemente más (sem o serem, objectivamente).

Estava a referir-me ao comunismo utópico.
Trazer a desigualdade para aqui é demagógico, porque no caso da Bulgária vs Grécia nem estou a ver relação. A Grécia tem um problema financeiro, está na zona Euro, e a resolução é entre Grécia e restantes paises da zona Euro (+ FMI pq EU declarou-se ibcompetente para lidar com isso sozinha) que criaram as instituições destindaas a garantir estabilidade da moeda e resistência a choques económicos. A Bulgária ainda não está na zona euro, não faz parte do problema nem da solução e por invocar Bulgária como termo de comparação é tão valido como Etiopia (embora dada a  Bulgária e Grécia serem fronteiriças se tal significar alguma dependencia economica entre as duas até imagino que Bulgária gostasse de ver solução positiva para a Grécia).
A questão da adapatabilidade, até Camões que perdeu um olho parece que se conseguiu adaptar bem. Só com um olho até deve ter melhorado, já que tinha menos distracções e concentrava-se melhor nos Lusíadas 

Quem diz a Bulgária diz outro país qq mais pobre que a Grécia que esteja na UE ... logo nem se percebe porque usarias esse argumento. Isso transparece muita vontade de acreditar, Zenith.

Em todo o caso, embora o falhanço inicial da UE tenha sido com não impor os critérios de Maastricht, a actuação desde então nem tem sido má -- se levarmos em conta que tem que equilibrar responbabilidade financeira com o objectivo de ser fofinha e Europeia.

Se alguma coisa, na Grécia pecou por ser fofinha demais.

[Incognitus]

Ah, agora é só a zona euro para se aferir a pobreza ? Então e porque não zona euro mas apenas a mediterrânea. E porque não apenas quem tenham mais do que 5 ilhas ? 

Que eu saiba a Bulgária é da UE. A Etiópia não. Comparar com a Bulgária é mais aceitável do que comparar com um pais africano.

Comparar com a Etiópia, diga-se, ainda seria válido. Afinal, se nos vamos indignar com a pobreza e crise humanitárias da Grécia como motivo para encher a Grécia de dinheiro ...

---------

De resto, para este género de crises nos EUA não há apoios entre Estados, e no entanto os Estados mais pobres têm para aí 1/2 do PIB per capita dos mais ricos.

[Automek]

Por falar em Bulgária, o Lev Bulgaro é moeda forte na Grécia.
Bulgarian lev gains currency in Greece as euro exit looms

[Automek]

Comparar com a Etiópia, diga-se, ainda seria válido. Afinal, se nos vamos indignar com a pobreza e crise humanitárias da Grécia como motivo para encher a Grécia de dinheiro ...

Eu ainda dou de borla que não se compare com a Etiópia para que não desçamos ao ponto de comparar a Grécia com o pais mais pobre do mundo (embora, de facto, nesses países, sim, é que há crise humanitária).

Mas, caramba, ao menos comparem os gregos com outros países da UE. Excluir esses países da comparação só porque não têm euro parece ser um argumento à medida do que se pretende demonstrar. Senão a partir de agora nenhuma média da UE serve. Temos sempre de ver UE com euro e UE sem Euro.

[Zenith]

Ah, agora é só a zona euro para se aferir a pobreza ? Então e porque não zona euro mas apenas a mediterrânea. E porque não apenas quem tenham mais do que 5 ilhas ? 

Que eu saiba a Bulgária é da UE. A Etiópia não. Comparar com a Bulgária é mais aceitável do que comparar com um pais africano.

A Grécia tem um problema financeiro, está na zona Euro, e a resolução é entre Grécia e restantes paises da zona Euro (+ FMI pq EU declarou-se incompetente para lidar com isso sozinha) que criaram as instituições destinadas a garantir estabilidade da moeda e resistência a choques económicos. A Bulgária ainda não está na zona euro, não faz parte do problema nem da solução.

Nem sei se a Bulgária é omelhor exemplo para demonstrar o que queres. A Bulgária e Grécia tem fronteira relativamente extensa (para a dimensao dos 2 paises), e não andei a pesquisar se tal se traduz em trocas comerciais percentualmente elevadas ente os dois, mas admitindo que sim, então Bulgária que não tem de contribuir com nada por estar fora do Euro até deve estar a fazer figas para que haja acordo a fim de garantir que gregos continuam a importar produtos bulgaros.
Não invoques muito a Bulgária que possivelemente uma sondagem ia revelar que são a favor de um acordo da Grecia com UE, e se não tiverem de pagar por isso tanto melhor 

[Lark]

De resto, para este género de crises nos EUA não há apoios entre Estados, e no entanto os Estados mais pobres têm para aí 1/2 do PIB per capita dos mais ricos.

como sabes isso não é verdade, como já foi demonstrado anteriormente.
não percebo porque insistes em algo que já te foi demonstrado não ser assim.

L

[Lark]

há alguma novidade em relação à reestruturação da dívida por parte da UE?
é que sem essa contrapartida não há acordo possível.

L

[Lark]

relato cronológico pelo nyt


ATHENS, Greece — The latest from Greece's financial crisis (all times local):
___

8:10 p.m.

Greece's new finance minister claims his country will win better terms for a bailout deal after calling a referendum, despite angering creditor countries.

In his first speech in parliament since becoming minister, Euclid Tsakalotos argued that the new proposed cuts are more socially fair than those in a previous draft agreement.

He told lawmakers: "I think after the referendum we are in a stronger position."

The proposed deal, he said, would provide three years of financing with repayments spaced more evenly than under previous bailouts. He said there was also growing consensus for the need for a long-term debt relief agreement by 2022, when interest payments are set to surge.

He added: "I think most of what we are aking for on debt relief is going to happen."

___

6:40 p.m.

Spanish Economy Minister Luis De Guindos is advising caution, not optimism, about Greece's reform proposals, which he says he hasn't seen yet.

The proposals are to be discussed by eurozone finance ministers on Saturday, ahead of an EU summit Sunday, following months of failed negotiations between Athens and creditors.

De Guindos said "I would be cautious" about the chances of the proposals bringing a deal.

Even so, he said the proposals moved Greece "back to a square before the referendum."

___

6:30 p.m.

A group of dissenters in Greece's governing Syriza party is urging the government to prepare to leave the euro and to reject any deal with creditors that involves more crippling austerity.

The group known as the Left Platform submitted a letter to Syriza lawmakers who met in parliament early Friday. In it, the group said an exit from the euro "under present conditions is a difficult but feasible process that will allow the country to follow a different path."

Syriza lawmakers met ahead of vote to authorize Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras to negotiate a deal with creditors in Brussels this weekend.

His government submitted a list of reforms to creditors late Thursday in order to win support for a new financial rescue of the country. So far, most of the responses to the proposals have been positive.

___

6:20 p.m.

The president of Cyprus says the Greek government's reform proposals to its creditors are much improved from previous versions and that there's a "solid basis" for an agreement to prevent the country from going bankrupt.

President Nicos Anastasiades says he's "more optimistic" now than he was in the past few days when there was much uncertainty whether Greece would meet a Thursday deadline to submit the proposals.

Anastasiades said he fully supports the restructuring of Greece's debt to make it more sustainable which would help the country overcome its economic crisis.

He said debt relief doesn't necessarily mean a write-off, but an agreement could see repayment deadlines extended and interest rates slashed.

Anastasiades was speaking after talks aimed at reunifying ethnically divided Cyprus with breakaway Turkish Cypriot leader Mustafa Akinci.

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___

5:40 p.m.

The International Monetary Fund's outgoing chief economist thinks Greece may need more money than the fund thought even last week.

In a blog post, Olivier Blanchard said Greece will likely need more than the 60 billion euros or so that the Fund indicated in a report last week. He said a big portion of the additional help is needed to help Greece's banks which are exposed to shaky Greek government bonds and have been fighting an outflow of deposits.

Blanchard also said Greece may need more generous debt relief than anticipated and that Greece's European creditors considered the analysis "as too pessimistic."

Greece has sent creditors a list of reform proposals in order to get 53.5 billion euros ($59.5 billion) of financing for three years and is hopeful of getting some sort of debt relief in return.

___

4:05 p.m.

U.S. Treasury Secretary Jacob Lew has expressed cautious optimism that Greece's latest offer could resolve a debt standoff and allow the country to stay in the eurozone.

He told a forum in New York on Friday that "It certainly looks like they're getting closer," adding, however, that "they've had trouble getting from close to closed."

He says Greece needs to take difficult steps to reduce budget deficits and make its economy more efficient. He also says Greece's creditors need to restructure the country's debt, though that would not necessarily mean they would have to write off a part of what Greece owes them.

He says "It's going to be a long slog through the next few days, but it should get worked out."

Lew says the global financial system is better positioned to deal with Greece's exit from the euro than it was a few years. Still, he said: "It would be a better thing for the global economy if this thing gets resolved."

___

2:45 p.m.

French Prime Minister Manuel Valls laid out his hopes for an imminent Greek bailout deal after the country's government sent "solid, serious and complete" reform proposals to creditors.

Valls' optimistic comments echo those made earlier by French President Francois Hollande.

Valls warned of the economic as well as political risks of a Greek exit from the euro.

"We should do everything so that Greece remains in the eurozone," Valls told reporters in remarks broadcast on French television. "No one can pretend to know the consequences, economic, politic, public order... of a Greek exit."

Valls conceded that France and Germany had a 'different rapport' with regard to Greece but that difference didn't hurt the overall relationship between the two countries.

___

2:25 p.m.

A Greek opposition party leader predicted a "large majority" of lawmakers will approve the government's proposals to creditors in a crucial vote later.

Potami party leader Stavros Theodorakis says there's no more room for discussions and that the Greek people want a deal ending "the anxiety and the stranglehold" that they feel.

He said a talk with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker Friday left him with the sense that the international creditors feel the Greek proposals are "moving in the right direction."

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Theodorakis said some "details" remain that both the Greek government and the creditors have still to iron out.

Greece met a Thursday deadline with a sweeping reform package that it hopes will convince creditors to turn lend it billions more, which would secure the country's place in the 19-country eurozone.

___

1:35 p.m.

Austrian Chancellor Werner Faymann says he sees a chance of an agreement with Greece after the country submitted reform proposals to creditors.

Faymann said in a statement that "constructive forces must now be stronger that those who don't want a solution under any circumstances."

He didn't specify who exactly he meant.

Faymann says it must not be forgotten that the crisis in Greece is affecting its poorest people — "so it is our obligation to use this last opportunity constructively."

___

1:30 p.m.

European Commission spokesman Margaritis Schinas says four of the key players in the Greek debt crisis will hold a conference call later to discuss the reform proposals sent by Athens late Thursday.

Schinas says the 1100 GMT (2 p.m. Athens time) call will involve eurozone's top official, Jeroen Dijsselbloem, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, European Central Bank President Mario Draghi and International Monetary Fund chief Christine Lagarde.

The call at comes as representatives from the Commission, IMF and ECB all assessing Greece's proposals.

Schinas, speaking at a briefing in Brussels, would not give any early assessment of the Greek reform plans.

He says the institutions will likely send their assessments to the eurogroup later Friday. Eurogroup finance ministers are scheduled to meet Saturday in Brussels to discuss the plans.

___

1:15 p.m.

The German government isn't giving an immediate verdict on the list of reform measures submitted by Greece, saying that it will wait for the assessment of the country's formal creditors.

Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman, Steffen Seibert, said he "cannot yet evaluate these new Greek proposals in terms of substance." He said Berlin will wait for the European Commission, the European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund to deliver their verdict.

Seibert says Merkel will be accompanied to a special European Union summit on Sunday by Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble. If there is an agreement, the government will have to get a mandate from the German Parliament to open full-fledged negotiations with Greece.

___

1:05 p.m.

The eurozone's top official doesn't appear to be ready to share his view on Greece's reform proposals.

Jeroen Dijsselbloem, who is also the Dutch finance minister, conceded that the proposals sent to creditors late Thursday were "extensive" but that they had to be assessed in terms of their viability.

Dijsselbloem says representatives from the European Commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund "will do the math and see if it adds up, if it's right."

Dijsselbloem and his peers in the 19-country eurozone, including Greek Finance Minister Euclid Tsakalotos meet Saturday to discuss the proposals.

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"Whichever way we go, we have to take a very far-reaching decision tomorrow, so let's do it carefully," he said.

___

12:40 p.m.

A European Union official says the eurozone's 19 leaders may scrap a scheduled meeting on Sunday if finance ministers give their blessing to Greek proposals for bailout cash.

The finance ministers meet Saturday in Brussels and there are growing expectations that they will reach agreement with Greece over a 3-year cash-for-reforms deal.

"We're in a quite hurried procedure," said the EU official, who was briefing reporters at the bloc's headquarters on condition he was not identified.

Greece has requested a third bailout of 53.5 billion euros ($59 billion) and caved in to a large chunk of creditor demands for a new round of austerity measures. In return, it hopes to get meaningful debt relief from creditors.

The proposals are currently being assessed by representatives from the European Commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund.

It was not immediately clear whether Sunday's summit of the European Union's 28 leaders would also be scrapped in the event of a deal.

--- By John-Thor Dahlburg in Brussels.

___

12:05 p.m.

French President Francois Hollande says the Greek proposals are "serious and credible" but stressed that nothing is final yet.

Hollande told reporters in Paris that the Greeks have "just shown a determination to want to stay in the eurozone, because the program that they are presenting is serious and credible."

He also said the fact the government is submitting its proposals to Parliaments shows "power, commitment and I would also say, courage."

Discussions, he added, must "now begin, must resume, but with the will to reach a conclusion."

France's Socialist government has been among the Greek government's few allies in the eurozone as it struggled for months to negotiate a bailout deal.

___

10:35 a.m.

European stock markets have responded positively to the reform proposals that the Greek government sent overnight to creditors.

In early trading, the Stoxx 50 index of leading European shares was up 2.3 percent while Germany's DAX rose 2.1 percent.

Greece has requested a third bailout of 53.5 billion euros ($59 billion) and seemingly caved in to a large chunk of creditor demands for a new round of austerity measures. In return, it hopes to get meaningful debt relief from creditors.

"With a number of institutions now agreeing in principle that Greece needs debt relief, proposals offered by Athens suggest a willingness to meet in the middle by giving in on a number of creditor demands for reforms," said Jasper Lawler, market analyst at CMC Markets. "It's the closest a deal for Greece has been in five months."

___

10:25 a.m.

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is convening his Syriza party lawmakers to discuss the reform proposals his government sent to creditors late Thursday night in an effort to reach a deal on a third bailout.

The meeting comes before a parliamentary session where, in an unusual move, the country's 300 lawmakers will be asked to authorize Tsipras and his negotiators to use the proposals as the basis for negotiations with Greece's international creditors.

Greece has requested a third bailout of 53.5 billion euros ($59 billion) and caved in to a large chunk of creditor demands for a new round of austerity measures.

In return, it hopes to get meaningful debt relief from creditors.

Hopes have grown that Greece can secure a rescue deal at a meeting of European Union leaders on Sunday in Brussels that would prevent the country's exit from the euro.

[Zenith]

Ah, agora é só a zona euro para se aferir a pobreza ? Então e porque não zona euro mas apenas a mediterrânea. E porque não apenas quem tenham mais do que 5 ilhas ? 

Que eu saiba a Bulgária é da UE. A Etiópia não. Comparar com a Bulgária é mais aceitável do que comparar com um pais africano.

Comparar com a Etiópia, diga-se, ainda seria válido. Afinal, se nos vamos indignar com a pobreza e crise humanitárias da Grécia como motivo para encher a Grécia de dinheiro ...

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De resto, para este género de crises nos EUA não há apoios entre Estados, e no entanto os Estados mais pobres têm para aí 1/2 do PIB per capita dos mais ricos.

Deves estra a falar para interlocutor errado. Eu nunca invoquei pobreza na Grécia como argumento. Os meus argumentos são de que plano delineado centou-se em criterios contabilisticos de curto prazo e nisso falhou. Agora é natural que em periodos de crise apareçam muito casos extremos que se representarem 5 ou 10% não se refletem muito na média, mas podem ter efeitos devastadores tal como o extremismo islamico (onde os radicais não são maioria).

Nos USA pode não haver transferências directas entre estados, mas tal é feito através do governo federal. É crónico que estados mais ricos recebem muito menos em investimentos federais do que pagam em impostos.

[Lark]

Is Alexis Tsipras Brilliant or Just Lucky?
JUL 10, 2015 10:29 AM EDT
By Mohamed A. El-Erian
Alexis Tsipras, Greece’s charismatic prime minister, has shown a fascinating talent for political maneuvering.

Greece's Fiscal Odyssey

When an impressive electoral victory carried him to office in January, he inherited a horrid economic and financial situation. He initially struggled to gain control, and relations with creditors collapsed in an acrimonious mess. But as Greece teetered on the edge of an economic and institutional abyss, he repeatedly caught everyone off guard by taking charge of a narrative that was slipping away both at home and abroad.

Now, he may be able to deliver what many (including me) thought improbable: a policy deal that is acceptable to the majority of Greeks, the country’s European partners and the International Monetary Fund. Yet, as brilliantly as he appears to have navigated the crisis so far, he still faces an uphill battle that will determine his political legacy.

Last month, Tsipras surprised (and angered) Greece's creditors by calling a snap referendum asking Greeks whether the government should accept the tough terms of a bailout deal, with the understanding that a "No" vote could mean the country's exit from the euro.

Surprising many, he secured an impressive "No" victory; and he did so despite the burden imposed on Greeks by bank closures and capital controls. Then, on Thursday, he seemingly did a U-turn, proposing policy measures to his creditors that were similar to those rejected by his citizens in the referendum (and that don’t yet emphasize debt forgiveness, which is central to assuring a sustainable economic recovery for Greece).

Through it all, Tsipras obtained the support of other Greek political parties, strengthening his bargaining position both at home and abroad. In addition, he is now drawing some support from other peripheral European countries, which had been hostile to the idea that Greece could receive preferential treatment within the euro zone.

The net result is that Tsipras may be close to delivering a policy proposal that could be approved by the Greek Parliament and prove acceptable to European creditors and the International Monetary Fund.

That alone might secure Tsipras's place in the history books. But it is not yet clear whether his ultimate achievement will be to restore Greece as a fully functioning and viable member of the euro zone, or simply delay its exit until the government is in a better position to manage the disruption caused by a Grexit.

In the next few days, Tsipras needs to prevail with his creditors and obtain the resumption of European financing and greater Emergency Liquidity Assistance from the European Central Bank. At the same time, he needs to maintain calm in Athens now that a wing of his Syriza party (and some others) feel they have been betrayed. And he must move very quickly to reopen the banks, clear the debt arrears to the IMF and begin to reverse his country's highly damaging economic implosion.

The Tsipras government then faces a much more difficult feat that has eluded all of its predecessors: the sustained implementation of an economic policy package that involves continued budgetary austerity (including higher taxes), pro-growth structural reforms (yet to be clearly specified), as well as debt forgiveness from official European creditors (still opposed by some governments).

The prime minister has dazzled more than once by pulling a few rabbits out of his hat, but his grand finale lies ahead. His ability to pull it off will determine whether his reputation for political brilliance will be enduring.

el-erian/bloomberg

EDIT: na minha opinião o brilhantismo residia no Varoufakis.
A ver que parte cabe ao tsipras.

[tommy]

Porque é que o Governo de Alexis Tsipras demorou cinco meses para concretizar algumas medidas destinadas a fechar o segundo programa de assistência, recusou sempre as contra-propostas dos credores, abandonou as negociações e convocou um referendo que disse não à austeridade, para agora vir propor uma dose reforçada da mesma receita? Que sentido faz ter deitado fora a expectativa existente no início do ano de regresso da Grécia ao crescimento do PIB, de um saldo primário do orçamento próximo de 1 por cento, ter atirado de novo o país para a recessão, o défice orçamental e a mais que certa falência dos bancos, precisando agora de fazer mais cortes para tentar recuperar o que já estava em marcha, com muito mais sacrifícios?

A ser verdade o que as agências noticiosas e os sites de vários jornais estão a divulgar sobre as propostas gregas para conseguir um empréstimo do Mecanismo Europeu de Estabilidade, Alexis Tsipras e o governo do Syriza ajoelharam perante os credores e escolheram morrer lentamente em vez de cair de imediato. Esperemos que os credores se mostrem agora magnânimos e cedam a liquidez de que a economia grega precisa como de pão para a boca para não colapsar.

http://expresso.sapo.pt/

Estes jornalistas do expresso não conseguem pensar 7 passos à frente, nem ficar 'felizes e descontraídos' com a desgraça na grecia.
Tudo de acordo com o guião.

Siga.