Grécia - Tópico principal

[Deus Menor]

Bullshit da treta. Vamos implementar medidas fiscais e nas pensões já a partir da próxima semana e entretanto precisamos de um empréstimo. É mesmo de quem quer mamar mais uns bis antes de sair do euro. Só cai neste conto do vigário quem quiser.

Era deixar acabar o mês neste impasse, sem dinheiro para salários e pensões , aí
sim , o espírito de sobrevivência viria ao de cima e acabavam as estórias de socialismos.

[vbm]

Que porcaria , ninguem se vai meter nisso , nao acredito...

Porc(aria)!?
Ninguém se vai meter!?
Já se meteram.

Os gregos receberam + € 1.6 k^3 (1000*1000*1000)
Quem está a ver  bem? Quem está a ver mal?

[Counter Retail Trader]

Este disse tudo , ou  que quase... todos queriam (em) dizer...

! No longer available

[Automek]

Esqueceu-se que aquilo lá não está controlado pelas marionetas do Syriza.

[Counter Retail Trader]

Esqueceu-se que aquilo lá não está controlado pelas marionetas do Syriza.

Dá para ver o sentimento Europeu ali... estao todos fartos...

[vbm]

Há marionetas e marionetas!

(Não consigo abrir o som do vídeo. Será por estar desactivado na origem!?)

[Counter Retail Trader]

Há marionetas e marionetas!

(Não consigo abrir o som do vídeo. Será por estar desactivado na origem!?)

Acabei de abrir aqui e esta optimo

[vbm]

Já consegui. Era algo no m/ portátil.  Obrigado.

[tommy]

Encontrei este texto interessante acerca de impostos sobre propriedade:

If you’re a homeowner, you probably don’t like paying property taxes. But economists like property taxes for the same reason taxpayers hate them: They’re hard to avoid.

A 2008 study by researchers at the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development looked at a number of countries and found that taxes on real property caused the least drag on gross domestic product per dollar of revenue raised. Next came sales taxes, personal income taxes and corporate income taxes. In other words, property taxes were the best way to collect revenue without hurting the economy too much.

As the economist Greg Mankiw wrote in this space three years ago, “A good rule of thumb is that when you tax something, you get less of it.” That idea helps explain why property taxes do relatively little economic damage.
Economic View
A column that explores life through an economic lens with leading economists and writers.


The main way taxes harm the economy is by causing people to change their behavior. Raising the income tax can cause people to work less; a higher sales tax can make people spend less. But the only way to avoid a property tax increase is to sell your property, and even then, you have to find a buyer who’s willing to take on the tax burden you’re giving up.

Real property is an excellent tax base because it can’t be moved and it lasts a long time. In the case of land, it usually lasts forever. We, as economic actors, cannot respond to a higher tax on land by reducing the amount of land that exists. We may change what buildings to construct and where, but once a building exists, it’s not likely to move in response to tax changes.

In rare cases, property taxes can get so high that they encourage people to abandon their property (see Detroit). But in general, property taxes simply lead to an efficient transfer of wealth from property owners to the government. That’s not necessarily lovely for property owners, but we need to finance government somehow, and it’s best for the economy that the manner be an efficient one.

So from an economist’s perspective, it’s a bit of a problem that Americans have fought so strongly against property taxes for the last 40 years. Since the 1970s, most states have significantly restricted how high local property taxes can go. The main effect has been not to restrict the growth of government but to push government to rely on less economically efficient taxes.

Property taxes declined to 24 percent in 2007 from 31 percent of local government revenues in 1977. Even as property taxes were restricted, local government grew as a share of the economy, driven by a combination of higher sales and income taxes and greater aid from state governments.

Increased reliance on these taxes has brought problems, and not just because they cause people to change how much they work or where they spend:

•Sales tax, which falls disproportionately on the poor, is what economists call regressive. Property tax is often perceived as regressive, but because wealthy people own much more property than poor people do, it is more progressive than sales tax, though not as progressive as income tax.

•Sales tax receipts are suppressed by several trends. Online sales have cut into the sales tax base, and the economy has shifted over time away from goods toward services, which most states don’t subject to sales tax. States have responded to this base erosion by raising sales tax rates over time, increasing the extent to which the sales tax damages the economy.
Continue reading the main story
Recent Comments
Frank Walker 1 hour ago

In other western countries federal taxes go to education, healthcare and infrastructure. Overseas friends can't believe that our federal...
Richardthe Engineer 7 hours ago

Whatever form taxes take without taxes recirculating wealth to the consumer capitalism will die.
T.M. Zinnen 7 hours ago

Ah, the cartoon. It shows the government only as a taker, not as a maker--of roads & schools, of wells and sewers, of health and safety, of...

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•The shift toward sales and income tax has led to an erosion of local control. Sales and income taxes are often levied across a large geographic area (lest people simply shop across municipal borders to get a better sales tax rate). The shift away from property tax has meant that local governments have had to depend on state governments to collect taxes and send them aid. This structure is fairer to poor cities and towns with weak property tax bases, but it also leaves local officials responsible for providing services without control over the revenue sources to fund them.

•Sales and income taxes are volatile. It’s their biggest problem. State and local income tax receipts fell 12 percent from 2007 to 2009, igniting budget crises around the country. In past recessions, sales tax held up much better than income tax, but not this time: Sales tax receipts fell nearly as much, 9 percent, over the same period.

The federal government deals with revenue volatility by borrowing money. But states and cities are supposed to balance their budget every year. Governments were caught off guard as the recession hit. Half of states missed their revenue projections by more than 10 percent in 2009, forcing large midyear budget cuts.

Property tax was the only major state and local government tax that held up well in the Great Recession. In most states, property tax collections are devised to grow in a stable, steady manner, with the tax rate falling when property values spike and rising when they fall.

Indeed, property tax has grown as a share of total state and local government receipts since 2007. In 2012 it was 27 percent, up from 24 percent in 2007, not because governments have re-evaluated their choice to de-emphasize property tax, but because sales and income taxes have been so extraordinarily weak in the recession and its aftermath that property tax has grown by comparison.

That growth serves as a reminder of the virtue of property tax: In good times or bad, it provides a stable, efficient source of revenue.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/05/business/the-inevitable-indispensable-property-tax.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=0

Vem isto a propósito de ter ouvido num programa de TV ontem que os gregos só no anterior governo (samaras/ND) passaram a ter um registo predial digno desse nome. Que deu para descobrir coisas interessantes como só em atenas teria mais de 1000 casas com piscina.

Enfim uns trapaçeiros que só querem fugir aos impostos e viver à custa dos outros.

[vbm]

Em Atenas, uma casa sem piscina é uma estupidez.

[tommy]

Em Atenas, uma casa sem piscina é uma estupidez.

Desde que seja com o teu dinheiro acho bem.

[vbm]

Por acaso, está com piada! :)



"Estou solidário com a Grécia!"
 A.c ké frô

[Local]

o imposto sobre propriedade é um imposto local, não servirá como um imposto para financiar o governo central.
No caso americano, os impostos sobre propriedade são muito mais elevados que em Portugal (em termos proporcionais).

1000 casas com piscina numa cidade de 660 mil habitantes não é muito (deverão ser mais piscinas).

[tommy]

o imposto sobre propriedade é um imposto local, não servirá como um imposto para financiar o governo central.
No caso americano, os impostos sobre propriedade são muito mais elevados que em Portugal (em termos proporcionais).

1000 casas com piscina numa cidade de 660 mil habitantes não é muito (deverão ser mais piscinas).

Tens razão. My mistake. Afinal estavam registadas 300 e eram só quase 17000.

As the nation of Greece teeters on the edge of bankruptcy, its tax authorities are taking aim at Greece's notorious tax-evading rich elite. Using satellite photos, the tax authority examined the claim of the residents of Athens's wealthy suburbs and discovered that, rather than the 324 swimming pools claimed by the locals, there were 16,974 of them.

[tommy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P84tN0z4jqM

[Counter Retail Trader]

com o dinheiro que recebe la bem podia ir arranjar a boca...Guy Verhofstadt -former prime minister of Belgium- President of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe (ALDE) in the European Parliament.

I am angry Mr Tsipras, because let's face it. We have been sleepwalking towards a Grexit. For five years now. And the past months we are even running towards it, with our eyes open.
With your eyes open. But, it is not you who is going to pay the bill. Who is going to pay the bill are the ordinary Greeks! Losing 30 - 40 per cent of their purchasing power, of their income.
I am going to be very clear today on what we have to but especially what you have to do. And you know it very well, from the beginning. You have to deliver a package of in depth structural reforms. And when I'm talking a package, I am talking about a precise plan. A roadmap. A clear calendar. No more intentions. We are 6 months after the elections and we have seen nothing.
Do you want a Grexit maybe? It is certainly not what your people want.
What Greece needs are
- concrete proposals to get rid of the clientelistic system. And concrete measures to fight corruption.
- a roadmap to dramatically downsize the public sector: we need to see the exact number of civil servants that won't be replaced.
- to transform the public banks into a healthy private financial sector
- to open the markets and jobs currently closed for too many young people.
We need to see an end date on when this is going to happen. also here no intentions We need to see the texts of the legal proposals, calendar, legislation.
- to end the privileges of the shipowners, the military, the orthodox church, the Greek islands and not to forget the politcial parties, including yours because you also have the loan of a public bank. I do not see the difference between you and Samaras, physically yes, but not on the content on the substance.
Another difference is that you have a mandate. Never there was a Greek prime minister with such as strong mandate. A double mandate. One in the parliamentary elections. One from the referendum.
The Greek people are fed up with the way Greece has be run the last decades. Change it!
But we also have our responsibility. The euro group need to respond to it with a new approach. We need to create what every currency union has: a real political and economic union. With a debt redemption fund for everybody, every member state not only for Greece. Like it exists in every sustainable currency union.
Mr Tsipras, but first thing first. You have to come forward with your reform program. This is not a chicken and the egg discussion.
It is your choice.
How do you want to be remembered? As an electoral accident who made its people poorer? Or as a real revolutionary reformer?
Don't fall in the PASOK trap. Don't betray your people.
Because 80 percent want to stay in the euro.
Show that you are a real leader and not a false prophet.
(My speech in the Eplenary this morning)

[Counter Retail Trader]

Engraçado , ha um grego que diz que ele devia ser o PM da Grecia , depois 40 gregos comentaram  coisas pouco abonatorias...

Dá realmente para ver que os Gregos estao com o Tripas e nao sao amigos das reformas...

[camisa]

tão mas o tsipras agora pediu 3º bailout acedendo em cortar no imediato as pensões e subir o IVA?

Acaba a aceitar mais austeridade que antes do refendo???

Para que serviu afinal o referendo??? Um golpe de teatro que envolveu 2 semanas com os bancos fechados e a economia paralisada?

Será que o povo não lhe irá cobrar?

[Automek]

como não é para cumprir pode prometer qualquer coisa. ele quer é que lhe mandem os 3.5b para pagar ao BCE dia 20 e não entrar em default e mais uns pozinhos para a pseudo-ajuda humanitária. depois manda-nos à fava e fica-se a rir dos tótós.

[Zakk]

como não é para cumprir pode prometer qualquer coisa. ele quer é que lhe mandem os 3.5b para pagar ao BCE dia 20 e não entrar em default e mais uns pozinhos para a pseudo-ajuda humanitária. depois manda-nos à fava e fica-se a rir dos tótós.

E para que é que ele quer pagar ao BCE?