Olá, Visitante. Por favor entre ou registe-se se ainda não for membro.

Entrar com nome de utilizador, password e duração da sessão
 

Autor Tópico: Grécia - Tópico principal  (Lida 1839997 vezes)

Automek

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 30976
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6920 em: 2015-07-04 12:14:46 »
Sim, são duas fortes razões para não quererem sair da UE: crédito (para não pagar) e fundos comunitários. Isso é coisa que o Putin não consegue substituir na dimensão que eles precisam.
Se saírem apenas do euro é possível que consigam manter ambas as coisas com sucesso.

Incognitus

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 30961
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6921 em: 2015-07-04 12:15:36 »
Segundo o Varoufakis, a Europa não emprestar mais dinheiro e não perdoar o que emprestou antes, junto com recusar-se a pagar as pensões Gregas, "é terrorismo".

http://news.forexlive.com/!/varoufakis-accuses-greeek-creditors-of-terrorism-20150704

"Why have they forced us to close the banks? To frighten people. And when it's about spreading terror, that is known as terrorism" <- Demagogia para papalvos e cabeças fracas. É brutal a falta de ética.
« Última modificação: 2015-07-04 12:22:06 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Automek

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 30976
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6922 em: 2015-07-04 15:29:43 »
pronto, já se imaginava...
Citar
O presidente do Parlamento Europeu, Martin Schulz, disse este sábado numa entrevista ao jornal Welt am Sonntag que está a avaliar a possibilidade de créditos de emergência para a Grécia para evitar uma crise humanitária.

“Vamos ver-nos obrigados a conceder créditos de emergência à Grécia como medida de transição, para que os serviços públicos possam continuar a funcionar e as pessoas necessitadas recebam dinheiro. Para isso haveria dinheiro a curto prazo em Bruxelas”, disse.

Segundo Schulz, o primeiro-ministro grego, Alexis Tsipras, conduziu o país a um beco sem saída, “mas as pessoas não têm culpa disso”. “Vamos ajudá-los. Não vamos deixar os gregos na miséria”, disse.
Observador

Incognitus

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 30961
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6923 em: 2015-07-04 15:50:58 »
Em condições normais o FMI empresta até 200% da quota de um dado país num dado ano, e até 600% da quota desse país no total.

No caso da Grécia, o FMI já emprestou 3200% da quota -- em termos relativos é aparentemente o maior empréstimo de sempre.
« Última modificação: 2015-07-04 15:51:46 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Lark

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 4627
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6924 em: 2015-07-04 16:12:03 »
This Is Why The Euro Is Finished
 
The IMF Debt Sustainability Analysis report on Greece that came out this week has caused a big stir. We now know that the Fund’s analysts confirm what Syriza has been saying ever since they came to power 5 months ago: Greece needs debt relief, lots of it, and fast.

We also know that Europe tried to silence the report. But what’s most interesting is that this has been going on for months, as per Reuters. Ergo, the IMF has known about the -preliminary- analysis for months, and kept silent, while at the same time ‘negotiating’ with Greece on austerity and bailouts.

And if you dig a bit deeper still, there’s no avoiding the fact that the IMF hasn’t merely known this for months, it’s known it for years. The Greek Parliamentary Debt Committee reported three weeks ago that it has in its possession an IMF document from 2010(!) that confirms the Fund knew even at that point in time.

That is to say, it already knew back then that the bailout executed in 2010 would push Greece even further into debt. Which is the exact opposite of what the bailout was supposed to do.

The 2010 bailout was the one that allowed private French, Dutch and German banks to transfer their liabilities to the Greek public sector, and indirectly to the entire eurozone‘s public sector. There was no debt restructuring in that deal.

Reuters yesterday reported that “Publication of the draft Debt Sustainability Analysis laid bare a dispute between Brussels and [the IMF] that has been simmering behind closed doors for months..

But that’s not the whole story. Evidently, there was a major dispute inside the IMF as well. The decision to release the report was apparently taken without even a vote, because it was obvious the Fund’s board members wanted the release. The US played a substantial role in that decision. Why the timing? Hard to tell.

The big question that arises from this is: what has been Christine Lagarde’s role in this charade? If she has been instrumental is keeping the analysis under wraps, she has done the IMF a lot of reputational damage, and it’s getting hard to see how she could possibly stay on as IMF chief. She has seen to it that the Fund has lost an immense amount of trust in the world. And without trust, the IMF is useless.

And while we’re at it, ECB chief Mario Draghi, who is also a major Troika negotiator, made a huge mistake this week in -all but- shutting down the Greek banking system, a decision that remains hard to believe to this day. The function of a central bank is to make sure banks are liquid, not to consciously and willingly strangle them.

How Draghi, after this, could stay on as ECB head is as hard to see as it is to do that for Lagarde’s position. And we should also question the actions and motives of people like Jean-Claude Juncker and Jeroen Dijsselbloem.

They must also have known about the IMF’s assessment, and still have insisted there be no debt relief on the negotiating table, although the analysis says there cannot be a viable deal without it.

One can only imagine Varoufakis’ frustration at finding the door shut in his face every single time he has brought up the subject. Because you don’t really need an IMF analysis to see what’s obvious.

Which is exactly why there is a referendum tomorrow: Alexis Tsipras refused to sign a deal that did not include debt restructuring. It would be comedy if it weren’t so tragic, most of all for the people of Greece. Here’s from Reuters yesterday:

Europeans Tried To Block IMF Debt Report On Greece

Euro zone countries tried in vain to stop the IMF publishing a gloomy analysis of Greece’s debt burden which the leftist government says vindicates its call to voters to reject bailout terms, sources familiar with the situation said on Friday. The document released in Washington on Thursday said Greece’s public finances will not be sustainable without substantial debt relief, possibly including write-offs by European partners of loans guaranteed by taxpayers. It also said Greece will need at least €50 billion in additional aid over the next three years to keep itself afloat. Publication of the draft Debt Sustainability Analysis laid bare a dispute between Brussels and the IMF that has been simmering behind closed doors for months.

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras cited the report in a televised appeal to voters on Friday to say ‘No’ to the proposed austerity terms, which have anyway expired since talks broke down and Athens defaulted on an IMF loan this week. It was not clear whether an arcane IMF document would influence a cliffhanger poll in which Greece’s future in the euro zone is at stake with banks closed, cash withdrawals rationed and commerce seizing up. “Yesterday an event of major political importance happened,” Tsipras said. “The IMF published a report on Greece’s economy which is a great vindication for the Greek government as it confirms the obvious – that Greek debt is not sustainable.”

At a meeting on the IMF’s board on Wednesday, European members questioned the timing of the report which IMF management proposed at short notice releasing three days before Sunday’s crucial referendum that may determine the country’s future in the euro zone, the sources said. There was no vote but the Europeans were heavily outnumbered and the United States, the strongest voice in the IMF, was in favor of publication, the sources said.


The reason why all Troika negotiators should face very serious scrutiny is that they have willingly kept information behind that should have been crucial in any negotiation with Greece. The reason is obvious: it would have cost Europe’s taxpayers many billions of euros.

But that should never be a reason to cheat and lie. Because once you do that, you’re tarnished for life. So in an even slightly ideal world, they should all resign. Everybody who’s been at that table for the Troika side.

And I can’t see how Angela Merkel would escape the hatchet either. She, too, must have known what the IMF analysts knew. And decided to waterboard the Greek population rather than be forced to explain at home that her earlier decisions (2010) failed so dramatically that her voters would now have to pay the price for them. No, Angela likes to be in power. More than she likes for the Greeks to have proper healthcare.

Understandable, perhaps, but unforgivable as well. Someone should take this entire circus of liars and cheaters and schemers to court. They’re very close to killing the entire EU with their machinations. Not that I mind, the sooner it dies the better, but the people involved should still be held accountable. It’s not even the EU itself which is at fault, or which is a bad idea, it’s these people.

But fear not, there’s no tragedy that doesn’t also have a humorous side. And I don’t mean that to take anything away from the Greek people’s suffering.

Brett Arends at MarketWatch wrote a great analysis of his own, and get this, also based on IMF numbers. Turns out, the biggest mistake for Greece and Syriza is to want to stay inside the eurozone. The euro has been such a financial and economic disaster, it’s hard to fathom that nobody has pointed this out before. Stay inside, and there’s no way you can win.

I find this a hilarious read in face of what I see going on here in Greece. It makes everything even more tragic.

Stop Lying To The Greeks — Life Without The Euro Is Great

Will the euro-fanatics please stop lying to the people of Greece? And while they’re at it, will they please stop lying to the rest of us as well? Can they stop pretending that life outside the euro — for the Greeks or any other European country — would be a fate worse than death? Can they stop claiming that if the Greeks go back to the drachma, they will be condemned to a miserable existence on the dark backwaters of European life, a small, forgotten and isolated country with no factories, no inward investment and no hope? Those dishonest threats are being leveled this week at the people of Greece, as they gear up for the weekend’s big referendum on more austerity.

The bully boys of Brussels, Frankfurt and elsewhere are warning the Greek people that if they don’t do as they’re told, and submit to yet more economic leeches, they may end up outside the euro … at which point, of course, life would stop. Bah.

Take a look at the chart. It compares the economic performance of Greece inside the euro with European rivals that don’t use the euro. Those other countries cover a wide range of situations, of course – from rich and stable Denmark, to former Soviet Union countries, to Greece’s neighbor Turkey, which isn’t even in the EU. But they all have one thing in common.




During the past 15 years, while Greece has been enjoying the “benefits” of having Brussels run their monetary policies, those poor suckers have all been stuck running their own affairs and managing their own currencies (if you can imagine). And you can see just how badly they’ve suffered as a result.

They’ve crushed it. Romania, Turkey, Poland, Sweden, Croatia — you name it, they’ve all posted vastly better growth rates than Greece. The data come from the IMF itself. It measures growth in gross domestic product, per person, in constant prices (in other words, with price inflation stripped out). Greece adopted the euro in 2001.

And after 14 years in the same club as the big boys, they are back right where they started. Real per-person economic growth over that time: Zero. Meanwhile Romania, with the leu, has only … er … doubled. Everyone else is up. The Icelanders, who suffered the worst financial catastrophe on the planet in 2008, have nonetheless managed to grow.

Yes, all data points have caveats. Each country has its own story and its own advantages and disadvantages. But the overall picture is clear: The euro has either caused Greece’s disastrous economic performance, or at least failed to prevent it.

What I find amazing about the euro-fanatics is that they just don’t seem to care about facts at all. They carry on repeating the same claims about the alleged miracle cure of their currency, no matter what happens. You can hit them over the head with the latest IMF World Economic Outlook and they carry on droning, unfazed.

I was in England during the 1990s when those people were warning that if the Brits didn’t give up the pound sterling and join the euro, they were doomed as well. For a laugh, I just went through news archives on Factiva and refreshed my memory.

Britain without the euro would be an “orphan country,” petted, humored but ignored, warned one leading figure. Britain would lose all influence and status. It would become a marginal country outside the mainstream of Europe. It would lose “a million jobs.” Factories would close. The car industry would collapse. Foreign investors would walk away because of Britain’s isolation.

Exports would plummet because of exchange-rate fluctuations. The City of London, Britain’s financial district, would lose out to Frankfurt. The London Stock Exchange would be reduced to a local backwater. Tumbleweeds would blow in the streets. (OK, I made that one up.)

And here we are today. Since 1992, when the single currency project began taxiing for takeoff, the countries on board have seen total economic growth of 40%, says the IMF. Poor old Great Britain, stuck back at the departure lounge with its miserable pound sterling? Just 67%. Bah.

This currency that Greece is fighting so hard to be part of is in fact strangling it. The reason for this lies in the structure of the EMU. Which makes it impossible for individual countries to adapt to changing circumstances. And circumstances always change. As a country, you need flexibility, you need to be able to adapt to world events.

You need to be able to devalue, you need a central bank to be your lender of last resort. Mario Draghi has refused to be Greece’s lender of last resort. That can’t be, that’s impossible. there is no valid economic reason for such an action, it’s criminal behavior. But the eurozone structure allows for such behavior.

In ‘real life’, where a country has its own central bank, the only reason for it to refuse to be lender of last resort would be political. And it is the same thing here. It’s about power. That’s why Greece’s grandmas can’t get to their meagre pensions. There is no economic reason for that.

In the eurozone, there’s only one nation that counts in the end: Germany. The eurozone has effectively made it possible for Angela Merkel to save her domestic banks from losses by unloading them upon the Greeks. This would not have been possible had Greece not been a member of the eurozone.

That this took, and still takes, scheming and cheating, is obvious. But that is at the same time the reason why either all Troika negotiators must be replaced, and by people who don’t stoop to these levels, or, and I think that’s the much wiser move, countries should leave the eurozone.

Look, it’s simple, the euro is finished. It won’t survive the unmitigated scandal that Greece has become. Greece is not the victim of its own profligacy, it’s the victim of a structure that makes it possible to unload the losses of the big countries’ failing financial systems onto the shoulders of the smaller. There’s no way Greece could win.

The damned lies and liars and statistics that come with all this are merely the cherry on the euro cake. It’s done. Stick a fork in it.

The smaller, poorer, countries in the eurozone need to get out while they can, and as fast as they can, or they will find themselves saddled with ever more losses of the richer nations as the euro falls apart. The structure guarantees it.

fonte
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

tommy

  • Visitante
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6925 em: 2015-07-04 16:20:33 »
Mostra aí o crescimento de Cuba, Venezuela e Argentina.

Depois mostra aí o crescimento de todos os países na zona euro. Mas filtra aí aqueles que foram à falência através de políticas de esquerda socialistas.

« Última modificação: 2015-07-04 16:37:11 por Incognitus »

tommy

  • Visitante
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6926 em: 2015-07-04 16:33:23 »
Citar
Imagine que ganha o "Não" no referendo de amanhã na Grécia. Imagine também que os restantes países europeus se recusam a oferecer mais dinheiro com menos condições. Muitos dizem que, nesse caso, a Grécia sairia do euro. A realidade é mais complicada e incerta.

Para começar, não está prevista a saída da zona euro nos tratados europeus. Não há base legal para um país ser expulso do euro. Pior, é provável que a Grécia se recuse a sair, mantendo o seu voto nas decisões do BCE, aconteça o que acontecer.

Ao mesmo tempo, o Estado grego gasta mais do que aquilo que cobra. A única forma actual de se financiar consiste em pedir emprestado aos bancos gregos, que por sua vez pedem emprestado ao Banco da Grécia, depositando a dívida pública grega como garantia. Para além disso, a Grécia continua a perder capital diariamente, com os gregos a tirarem os seus euros dos bancos gregos. Sempre que o fazem, os bancos gregos pedem euros emprestados ao Banco da Grécia. Como membro do Eurosistema, sempre que o Banco da Grécia empresta euros, está implicitamente a pedi-los emprestados aos restantes bancos centrais da zona euro. Por isso, é a zona euro e o BCE que, pós-referendo, financiariam a Grécia quase em exclusivo.

Ponha-se por isso nos pés de Mario Draghi. Você tem cerca de 20 mil milhões investidos em dívida grega, que o governo grego não quer pagar. Tem também 100 mil milhões de créditos sobre o Banco da Grécia no Eurosistema. Por fim, o seu mandato diz explicitamente que o BCE não pode financiar Estados. A forma como você justificou legalmente as intervenções dos últimos anos consistiu em afirmar que todos os empréstimos do BCE seriam temporários, todos seriam pagos, e só continuariam se os Estados fizessem parte de um programa da troika.

Se o BCE se recusar a estender as suas linhas de liquidez aos bancos gregos, então, de uma certa forma, a Grécia estará fora do euro. Os bancos gregos não conseguem satisfazer todos os levantamentos e fecham as portas. Os gregos podem continuar a usar euros, da mesma forma que os bósnios usam euros. Mas, é difícil ver como pode sobreviver o sistema bancário grego sem o apoio de um banco central. Seriam os próprios gregos a querer que o Banco da Grécia voltasse a ser um entidade independente.

Mas, nesse caso, surgem dois problemas. Primeiro, o que acontece aos 100 mil milhões que o Banco da Grécia deve ao Eurosistema? Enquanto a Grécia estiver dentro do Euro, não há prazo de pagamento, mas assim que ocorrer a saída, esta é uma divida oficial que deve ser saldada imediatamente. Segundo, no curto prazo, o novo Banco da Grécia vai enfrentar uma enorme corrida de fundos para fora do país. Só sobrevive ao colapso com o apoio do... FMI. Mas como a Grécia está, desde quarta-feira, na lista negra dos caloteiros, o FMI não pode ajudar.

Como acontece nos divórcios, é bom sonhar que basta rasgar o contrato e começar do zero. Mas a verdade é bem mais difícil e complicada. E o Syriza não parece fazer a mínima ideia.


http://www.dinheirovivo.pt/opiniao_blogs/interior.aspx?content_id=4659716&page=-1

Quando se vota em inconscientes, irresponsáveis, desligados do mundo real, não costuma dar bom resultado.

Vanilla-Swap

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 5059
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6927 em: 2015-07-04 16:36:51 »
Neste momento há muita gente a pensar de que dracma era bom para a Grécia.

Lark

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 4627
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6928 em: 2015-07-04 16:42:46 »
Citar
Só sobrevive ao colapso com o apoio do... FMI. Mas como a Grécia está, desde quarta-feira, na lista negra dos caloteiros, o FMI não pode ajudar.

A Grécia está neste momento em arrears.

Statement by the IMF on Greece

Mr. Gerry Rice, Director of Communications at the International Monetary Fund (IMF), made the following statement today regarding Greece’s financial obligations to the IMF due today:
“I confirm that the SDR 1.2 billion repayment (about EUR 1.5 billion) due by Greece to the IMF today has not been received. We have informed our Executive Board that Greece is now in arrears and can only receive IMF financing once the arrears are cleared.
“I can also confirm that the IMF received a request today from the Greek authorities for an extension of Greece’s repayment obligation that fell due today, which will go to the IMF’s Executive Board in due course.”

FMI

assim que o pagamento em falta for feito, a grécia estará novamente em condições de receber ajuda do FMI.

o que está aí escrito não é correcto. aliás com esse tipo de linguagem é logo de desconfiar do artigo.

L


Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

tommy

  • Visitante
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6929 em: 2015-07-04 16:43:25 »
Neste momento há muita gente a pensar de que dracma era bom para a Grécia.

Há muita gente que pensa que o bolivar é bom na Venezuela. Mas depois há aqueles que precisam de comprar alimentos, medicamentos, etc.. e que sabem bem que se não tiverem dólares americanos, morrem à fome, sem cuidados médicos, etc.

Na Argentina igual.

Cuba igual.

etc. para outros países com mentalidade syriza.
« Última modificação: 2015-07-04 16:44:12 por Incognitus »

Incognitus

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 30961
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6930 em: 2015-07-04 16:43:33 »
This Is Why The Euro Is Finished
 
The IMF Debt Sustainability Analysis report on Greece that came out this week has caused a big stir. We now know that the Fund’s analysts confirm what Syriza has been saying ever since they came to power 5 months ago: Greece needs debt relief, lots of it, and fast.

We also know that Europe tried to silence the report. But what’s most interesting is that this has been going on for months, as per Reuters. Ergo, the IMF has known about the -preliminary- analysis for months, and kept silent, while at the same time ‘negotiating’ with Greece on austerity and bailouts.

And if you dig a bit deeper still, there’s no avoiding the fact that the IMF hasn’t merely known this for months, it’s known it for years. The Greek Parliamentary Debt Committee reported three weeks ago that it has in its possession an IMF document from 2010(!) that confirms the Fund knew even at that point in time.

That is to say, it already knew back then that the bailout executed in 2010 would push Greece even further into debt. Which is the exact opposite of what the bailout was supposed to do.

The 2010 bailout was the one that allowed private French, Dutch and German banks to transfer their liabilities to the Greek public sector, and indirectly to the entire eurozone‘s public sector. There was no debt restructuring in that deal.

Reuters yesterday reported that “Publication of the draft Debt Sustainability Analysis laid bare a dispute between Brussels and [the IMF] that has been simmering behind closed doors for months..

But that’s not the whole story. Evidently, there was a major dispute inside the IMF as well. The decision to release the report was apparently taken without even a vote, because it was obvious the Fund’s board members wanted the release. The US played a substantial role in that decision. Why the timing? Hard to tell.

The big question that arises from this is: what has been Christine Lagarde’s role in this charade? If she has been instrumental is keeping the analysis under wraps, she has done the IMF a lot of reputational damage, and it’s getting hard to see how she could possibly stay on as IMF chief. She has seen to it that the Fund has lost an immense amount of trust in the world. And without trust, the IMF is useless.

And while we’re at it, ECB chief Mario Draghi, who is also a major Troika negotiator, made a huge mistake this week in -all but- shutting down the Greek banking system, a decision that remains hard to believe to this day. The function of a central bank is to make sure banks are liquid, not to consciously and willingly strangle them.

How Draghi, after this, could stay on as ECB head is as hard to see as it is to do that for Lagarde’s position. And we should also question the actions and motives of people like Jean-Claude Juncker and Jeroen Dijsselbloem.

They must also have known about the IMF’s assessment, and still have insisted there be no debt relief on the negotiating table, although the analysis says there cannot be a viable deal without it.

One can only imagine Varoufakis’ frustration at finding the door shut in his face every single time he has brought up the subject. Because you don’t really need an IMF analysis to see what’s obvious.

Which is exactly why there is a referendum tomorrow: Alexis Tsipras refused to sign a deal that did not include debt restructuring. It would be comedy if it weren’t so tragic, most of all for the people of Greece. Here’s from Reuters yesterday:

Europeans Tried To Block IMF Debt Report On Greece

Euro zone countries tried in vain to stop the IMF publishing a gloomy analysis of Greece’s debt burden which the leftist government says vindicates its call to voters to reject bailout terms, sources familiar with the situation said on Friday. The document released in Washington on Thursday said Greece’s public finances will not be sustainable without substantial debt relief, possibly including write-offs by European partners of loans guaranteed by taxpayers. It also said Greece will need at least €50 billion in additional aid over the next three years to keep itself afloat. Publication of the draft Debt Sustainability Analysis laid bare a dispute between Brussels and the IMF that has been simmering behind closed doors for months.

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras cited the report in a televised appeal to voters on Friday to say ‘No’ to the proposed austerity terms, which have anyway expired since talks broke down and Athens defaulted on an IMF loan this week. It was not clear whether an arcane IMF document would influence a cliffhanger poll in which Greece’s future in the euro zone is at stake with banks closed, cash withdrawals rationed and commerce seizing up. “Yesterday an event of major political importance happened,” Tsipras said. “The IMF published a report on Greece’s economy which is a great vindication for the Greek government as it confirms the obvious – that Greek debt is not sustainable.”

At a meeting on the IMF’s board on Wednesday, European members questioned the timing of the report which IMF management proposed at short notice releasing three days before Sunday’s crucial referendum that may determine the country’s future in the euro zone, the sources said. There was no vote but the Europeans were heavily outnumbered and the United States, the strongest voice in the IMF, was in favor of publication, the sources said.


The reason why all Troika negotiators should face very serious scrutiny is that they have willingly kept information behind that should have been crucial in any negotiation with Greece. The reason is obvious: it would have cost Europe’s taxpayers many billions of euros.

But that should never be a reason to cheat and lie. Because once you do that, you’re tarnished for life. So in an even slightly ideal world, they should all resign. Everybody who’s been at that table for the Troika side.

And I can’t see how Angela Merkel would escape the hatchet either. She, too, must have known what the IMF analysts knew. And decided to waterboard the Greek population rather than be forced to explain at home that her earlier decisions (2010) failed so dramatically that her voters would now have to pay the price for them. No, Angela likes to be in power. More than she likes for the Greeks to have proper healthcare.

Understandable, perhaps, but unforgivable as well. Someone should take this entire circus of liars and cheaters and schemers to court. They’re very close to killing the entire EU with their machinations. Not that I mind, the sooner it dies the better, but the people involved should still be held accountable. It’s not even the EU itself which is at fault, or which is a bad idea, it’s these people.

But fear not, there’s no tragedy that doesn’t also have a humorous side. And I don’t mean that to take anything away from the Greek people’s suffering.

Brett Arends at MarketWatch wrote a great analysis of his own, and get this, also based on IMF numbers. Turns out, the biggest mistake for Greece and Syriza is to want to stay inside the eurozone. The euro has been such a financial and economic disaster, it’s hard to fathom that nobody has pointed this out before. Stay inside, and there’s no way you can win.

I find this a hilarious read in face of what I see going on here in Greece. It makes everything even more tragic.

Stop Lying To The Greeks — Life Without The Euro Is Great

Will the euro-fanatics please stop lying to the people of Greece? And while they’re at it, will they please stop lying to the rest of us as well? Can they stop pretending that life outside the euro — for the Greeks or any other European country — would be a fate worse than death? Can they stop claiming that if the Greeks go back to the drachma, they will be condemned to a miserable existence on the dark backwaters of European life, a small, forgotten and isolated country with no factories, no inward investment and no hope? Those dishonest threats are being leveled this week at the people of Greece, as they gear up for the weekend’s big referendum on more austerity.

The bully boys of Brussels, Frankfurt and elsewhere are warning the Greek people that if they don’t do as they’re told, and submit to yet more economic leeches, they may end up outside the euro … at which point, of course, life would stop. Bah.

Take a look at the chart. It compares the economic performance of Greece inside the euro with European rivals that don’t use the euro. Those other countries cover a wide range of situations, of course – from rich and stable Denmark, to former Soviet Union countries, to Greece’s neighbor Turkey, which isn’t even in the EU. But they all have one thing in common.




During the past 15 years, while Greece has been enjoying the “benefits” of having Brussels run their monetary policies, those poor suckers have all been stuck running their own affairs and managing their own currencies (if you can imagine). And you can see just how badly they’ve suffered as a result.

They’ve crushed it. Romania, Turkey, Poland, Sweden, Croatia — you name it, they’ve all posted vastly better growth rates than Greece. The data come from the IMF itself. It measures growth in gross domestic product, per person, in constant prices (in other words, with price inflation stripped out). Greece adopted the euro in 2001.

And after 14 years in the same club as the big boys, they are back right where they started. Real per-person economic growth over that time: Zero. Meanwhile Romania, with the leu, has only … er … doubled. Everyone else is up. The Icelanders, who suffered the worst financial catastrophe on the planet in 2008, have nonetheless managed to grow.

Yes, all data points have caveats. Each country has its own story and its own advantages and disadvantages. But the overall picture is clear: The euro has either caused Greece’s disastrous economic performance, or at least failed to prevent it.

What I find amazing about the euro-fanatics is that they just don’t seem to care about facts at all. They carry on repeating the same claims about the alleged miracle cure of their currency, no matter what happens. You can hit them over the head with the latest IMF World Economic Outlook and they carry on droning, unfazed.

I was in England during the 1990s when those people were warning that if the Brits didn’t give up the pound sterling and join the euro, they were doomed as well. For a laugh, I just went through news archives on Factiva and refreshed my memory.

Britain without the euro would be an “orphan country,” petted, humored but ignored, warned one leading figure. Britain would lose all influence and status. It would become a marginal country outside the mainstream of Europe. It would lose “a million jobs.” Factories would close. The car industry would collapse. Foreign investors would walk away because of Britain’s isolation.

Exports would plummet because of exchange-rate fluctuations. The City of London, Britain’s financial district, would lose out to Frankfurt. The London Stock Exchange would be reduced to a local backwater. Tumbleweeds would blow in the streets. (OK, I made that one up.)

And here we are today. Since 1992, when the single currency project began taxiing for takeoff, the countries on board have seen total economic growth of 40%, says the IMF. Poor old Great Britain, stuck back at the departure lounge with its miserable pound sterling? Just 67%. Bah.

This currency that Greece is fighting so hard to be part of is in fact strangling it. The reason for this lies in the structure of the EMU. Which makes it impossible for individual countries to adapt to changing circumstances. And circumstances always change. As a country, you need flexibility, you need to be able to adapt to world events.

You need to be able to devalue, you need a central bank to be your lender of last resort. Mario Draghi has refused to be Greece’s lender of last resort. That can’t be, that’s impossible. there is no valid economic reason for such an action, it’s criminal behavior. But the eurozone structure allows for such behavior.

In ‘real life’, where a country has its own central bank, the only reason for it to refuse to be lender of last resort would be political. And it is the same thing here. It’s about power. That’s why Greece’s grandmas can’t get to their meagre pensions. There is no economic reason for that.

In the eurozone, there’s only one nation that counts in the end: Germany. The eurozone has effectively made it possible for Angela Merkel to save her domestic banks from losses by unloading them upon the Greeks. This would not have been possible had Greece not been a member of the eurozone.

That this took, and still takes, scheming and cheating, is obvious. But that is at the same time the reason why either all Troika negotiators must be replaced, and by people who don’t stoop to these levels, or, and I think that’s the much wiser move, countries should leave the eurozone.

Look, it’s simple, the euro is finished. It won’t survive the unmitigated scandal that Greece has become. Greece is not the victim of its own profligacy, it’s the victim of a structure that makes it possible to unload the losses of the big countries’ failing financial systems onto the shoulders of the smaller. There’s no way Greece could win.

The damned lies and liars and statistics that come with all this are merely the cherry on the euro cake. It’s done. Stick a fork in it.

The smaller, poorer, countries in the eurozone need to get out while they can, and as fast as they can, or they will find themselves saddled with ever more losses of the richer nations as the euro falls apart. The structure guarantees it.

fonte


Má comparação. Existe um benefício grande para os países "pré-entrada". E existe outro benefício grande para alguns desses, em terem saído do comunismo e liberalizado.

A comparação correcta mostraria a Grécia no mesmo ponto do processo, quando ela estava a inchar a bolha, não após a bolha rebentar.

E Euro não vai a lado nenhum...
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Lark

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 4627
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6931 em: 2015-07-04 16:44:57 »
Citar
Só sobrevive ao colapso com o apoio do... FMI. Mas como a Grécia está, desde quarta-feira, na lista negra dos caloteiros, o FMI não pode ajudar.

A Grécia está neste momento em arrears.

Statement by the IMF on Greece

Mr. Gerry Rice, Director of Communications at the International Monetary Fund (IMF), made the following statement today regarding Greece’s financial obligations to the IMF due today:
“I confirm that the SDR 1.2 billion repayment (about EUR 1.5 billion) due by Greece to the IMF today has not been received. We have informed our Executive Board that Greece is now in arrears and can only receive IMF financing once the arrears are cleared.
“I can also confirm that the IMF received a request today from the Greek authorities for an extension of Greece’s repayment obligation that fell due today, which will go to the IMF’s Executive Board in due course.”

FMI

assim que o pagamento em falta for feito, a grécia estará novamente em condições de receber ajuda do FMI.

o que está aí escrito não é correcto. aliás com esse tipo de linguagem é logo de desconfiar do artigo.

L

o mais provável é que quando essa ajuda for concedida, a Madame Lagarde já lá não esteja, coitada.
Depois desta bronca do relatório do FMI, não há ninguém na troika que saia bem na fotografia.

L
« Última modificação: 2015-07-04 16:45:15 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

tommy

  • Visitante
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6932 em: 2015-07-04 16:48:12 »
Citar
Só sobrevive ao colapso com o apoio do... FMI. Mas como a Grécia está, desde quarta-feira, na lista negra dos caloteiros, o FMI não pode ajudar.


A Grécia está neste momento em arrears.

Statement by the IMF on Greece

Mr. Gerry Rice, Director of Communications at the International Monetary Fund (IMF), made the following statement today regarding Greece’s financial obligations to the IMF due today:
“I confirm that the SDR 1.2 billion repayment (about EUR 1.5 billion) due by Greece to the IMF today has not been received. We have informed our Executive Board that Greece is now in arrears and can only receive IMF financing once the arrears are cleared.
“I can also confirm that the IMF received a request today from the Greek authorities for an extension of Greece’s repayment obligation that fell due today, which will go to the IMF’s Executive Board in due course.”

FMI

assim que o pagamento em falta for feito, a grécia estará novamente em condições de receber ajuda do FMI.

o que está aí escrito não é correcto. aliás com esse tipo de linguagem é logo de desconfiar do artigo.

L



O autor do artigo é Ricardo Reis. Não o heterónimo de Fernando Pessoa.

http://www.columbia.edu/~rr2572/

Citar
Professor of Economics
Columbia University

1105B International Affairs Building, MC 3308
420 West, 118th Street
New York, NY 10027
USA
Phone: +1-212-851-4007
E-mail : rreis@columbia.edu


Citar
Ricardo A. M. R. Reis (born September 1, 1978) is a Portuguese economist at Columbia University in New York City. He became a full professor at the age of 29, one of the youngest ever in the history of the University. He is the editor of the Journal of Monetary Economics and sits on the Board of Editors of the American Economic Review and the Journal of Economic Literature. He is an academic advisor and visiting scholar at the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, and the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond.
« Última modificação: 2015-07-04 16:58:10 por Incognitus »

Lark

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 4627
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6933 em: 2015-07-04 16:51:44 »
E Euro não vai a lado nenhum...

o euro vai a algum lado sim. para o caixote de lixo da história e mais rápido que se pensa

se a grécia, portugal, espanha e itália sairem, fica apenas o núcleo duro da UE e mais uns países pequenos que acharam por bem entrar no EURO.

ora o o EURO, só com o núcleo duro - benelux, frança e alemanha, tenderá a valorizar-se brutalmente. inaceitável para todos e especialmente a alemanha, que verá a suas exportações deixarem de ser competititivas.

só restará à alemanha sair do euro, voltar ao marco e desvalorizar, para manter a competitividade da sua economia.
irónico não é?

L

Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 4627
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6934 em: 2015-07-04 16:53:15 »
Citar
Só sobrevive ao colapso com o apoio do... FMI. Mas como a Grécia está, desde quarta-feira, na lista negra dos caloteiros, o FMI não pode ajudar.


A Grécia está neste momento em arrears.

Statement by the IMF on Greece

Mr. Gerry Rice, Director of Communications at the International Monetary Fund (IMF), made the following statement today regarding Greece’s financial obligations to the IMF due today:
“I confirm that the SDR 1.2 billion repayment (about EUR 1.5 billion) due by Greece to the IMF today has not been received. We have informed our Executive Board that Greece is now in arrears and can only receive IMF financing once the arrears are cleared.
“I can also confirm that the IMF received a request today from the Greek authorities for an extension of Greece’s repayment obligation that fell due today, which will go to the IMF’s Executive Board in due course.”

FMI

assim que o pagamento em falta for feito, a grécia estará novamente em condições de receber ajuda do FMI.

o que está aí escrito não é correcto. aliás com esse tipo de linguagem é logo de desconfiar do artigo.

L



O autor do artigo é Ricardo Reis. Não o heterónimo de Fernando Pessoa.

http://www.columbia.edu/~rr2572/

Citar
Professor of Economics
Columbia University

1105B International Affairs Building, MC 3308
420 West, 118th Street
New York, NY 10027
USA
Phone: +1-212-851-4007
E-mail : rreis@columbia.edu


Citar
Ricardo A. M. R. Reis (born September 1, 1978) is a Portuguese economist at Columbia University in New York City. He became a full professor at the age of 29, one of the youngest ever in the history of the University. He is the editor of the Journal of Monetary Economics and sits on the Board of Editors of the American Economic Review and the Journal of Economic Literature. He is an academic advisor and visiting scholar at the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, and the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond.



então? argumento de autoridade? quem é o ricardo reis, no panorama da análise macro?

L
« Última modificação: 2015-07-04 16:59:02 por Incognitus »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

tommy

  • Visitante
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6935 em: 2015-07-04 16:58:32 »
Tu e o krugman é que são autoridades. Apesar do facto de terem falhado em rigorosamente todas as previsões que fizeram.
Portanto quando dizes que o euro vai falhar...é um momento de felicidade para mim. :D

- - -

Citar
Little Planning

Greece would be more complicated because the transition would have to happen fast, with little planning. And unlike most other currencies that have been abandoned, Greece’s current currency -- the euro -- will remain in circulation across Europe. That means any new currency might have little appeal to Greeks, who would expect its value to fall once the market was allowed to set the exchange rate.

“As soon as anyone got new drachmas stuffed in their pockets, they would do whatever it takes to get rid of them,” said Jacob Kirkegaard, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington.

Ludek Niedermayer, who headed the risk management department at the Czech central bank when the Czech koruna was introduced in February 1993, said that at the time his country and Slovakia were relatively isolated, having emerged from communism less than four years earlier. Greece, he noted, is far more integrated into the Europe, making it harder to switch.

The key is trust in the new currency, Niedermayer said. That’s something the Czechs and Slovaks both had, and which the Greeks will surely lack.

“If you introduce a currency that no one wants, it’s a very bad start,” Niedermayer said. “I would advise Greeks to stop thinking about leaving the euro at all. It wouldn’t be a happy ending for them. There isn’t any alternative that would be equal to having the euro.”


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-04/printing-the-drachma-the-messy-future-of-a-post-euro-greece
« Última modificação: 2015-07-04 16:59:03 por tommy »

Incognitus

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 30961
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6936 em: 2015-07-04 16:58:48 »
E Euro não vai a lado nenhum...

o euro vai a algum lado sim. para o caixote de lixo da história e mais rápido que se pensa

se a grécia, portugal, espanha e itália sairem, fica apenas o núcleo duro da UE e mais uns países pequenos que acharam por bem entrar no EURO.

ora o o EURO, só com o núcleo duro - benelux, frança e alemanha, tenderá a valorizar-se brutalmente. inaceitável para todos e especialmente a alemanha, que verá a suas exportações deixarem de ser competititivas.

só restará à alemanha sair do euro, voltar ao marco e desvalorizar, para manter a competitividade da sua economia.
irónico não é?

L

A Alemanha nunca se queixou de ter uma moeda forte. Pelo contrário, a Alemanha sempre receou ter uma fraca.

O achares que iria desvalorizar para manter a competitividade da economia está em contradição com o comportamento histórico da Alemanha.
« Última modificação: 2015-07-04 17:01:37 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Lark

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 4627
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6937 em: 2015-07-04 17:01:17 »
E Euro não vai a lado nenhum...

o euro vai a algum lado sim. para o caixote de lixo da história e mais rápido que se pensa

se a grécia, portugal, espanha e itália sairem, fica apenas o núcleo duro da UE e mais uns países pequenos que acharam por bem entrar no EURO.

ora o o EURO, só com o núcleo duro - benelux, frança e alemanha, tenderá a valorizar-se brutalmente. inaceitável para todos e especialmente a alemanha, que verá a suas exportações deixarem de ser competititivas.

só restará à alemanha sair do euro, voltar ao marco e desvalorizar, para manter a competitividade da sua economia.
irónico não é?

L

A Alemanha nunca se queixou de ter uma moeda forte. Pelo contrário, a Alemanha sempre receou ter uma fraca.

yep. mas neste caso não me parece que o passado seja um bom guia.
é a minha opinião.
mas veremos brevemente. 2/3 anos.

até agora tem tudo saído tal como estava no guião.

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Incognitus

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 30961
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6938 em: 2015-07-04 17:02:16 »
Eu coloquei este gráfico a ilustrar esse post, entretanto já respondeste pelo que repito.

"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

meu-godo

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 349
    • Ver Perfil
Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #6939 em: 2015-07-04 17:04:25 »
A Alemanha quer provavelmente ser um país rico com uma moeda forte...