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Autor Tópico: Grécia - Tópico principal  (Lida 1839959 vezes)

Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5680 em: 2015-06-28 18:58:38 »
1:51:23 PM RTRS - GREEK PM TSIPRAS SAYS  HAS FORCED THE CENTRAL BANK TO RECOMMEND A BANK HOLIDAY AND CAPITAL CONTROLS

1:51:53 PM RTRS - GREEK PM TSIPRAS SAYS  ECB, OTHERS WILL NOT OBSTRUCT A PROCESS OF REFERENDUM

1:52:14 PM RTRS - GREEK PM TSIPRAS SAYS  ATTEMPTS TO CANCEL DEMOCRATIC PROCESS IS AN INSULT AND SHAME FOR DEMOCRATIC TRADITIONS OF EUROPE

- GREEK PM TSIPRAS SAYS STILL WAITING FOR ANSWER TO REQUEST OF BAILOUT EXTENSION (fizeram novo pedido)

- GREEK PM TSIPRAS SAYS  EVEN TONIGHT, THEY CAN GIVE THE ECB THE RIGHT TO RESTORE LIQUIDITY (isto é um bocado surreal)

* GREEK PRIME MINISTER SAYS DEPOSITS ARE COMPLETELY SAFE (rir, seguros em EUR não estão, embora possam ficar, claro)


"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5681 em: 2015-06-28 19:05:16 »
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#Tsipras suggested lenders' refusal to extend program & forcing banks to close would make Greeks more determined to vote "no"

Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5682 em: 2015-06-28 19:10:06 »
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#Tsipras suggested lenders' refusal to extend program & forcing banks to close would make Greeks more determined to vote "no"

Ele diz a verdade, para a fatia que já tirou os seus depósitos do banco ...  :D

Esses, se não forem pensionistas, devem estar a imaginar que agora se sairem do Euro ficam ricos.  :D
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5683 em: 2015-06-28 19:12:11 »
Greece crisis: a disaster for Athens and a colossal failure for the EU
After three crises in as many days, the collective performance of the eurozones governments inspires little hope or confidence in their crisis management

Five years from its inception, the world’s biggest bailout of a sovereign state will grind to an excruciating halt on Tuesday, theoretically leaving Greece high and dry and on its own under a leftwing government bitterly accusing the EU elite of deliberately using the country as a neo-liberal laboratory.

If the experiment has been a disaster for Greece, it is also a colossal failure for Europe, with the result that at the very apex of leadership the EU nowadays resembles an unhappy assembly of squabbling politicians locked in what could not be called an “ever closer union”.

Take just the last few days. On Thursday leaders at a summit contemplated formally for the first time, however briefly, the prospect of Britain leaving the EU. By three o’clock on Friday morning they were all at one another’s throats in an unseemly quarrel over who should take part in accommodating a mere 40,000 refugees from Italy and Greece over two years, and on what terms. On Saturday, 18 governments of the eurozone cut Greece off and initiated a process that could end in pushing Athens out of the currency and perhaps out of the union.

Three days, three crises, and a collective performance that inspires little hope or confidence in their crisis management.

The air is already thick with recrimination, not just between Greece and the rest of Europe, but among the Europeans. France says that Greece must be saved, Germany says impossible. The European Commission is seeking to revive negotiation that are on their deathbed. The Finnish finance minister, Alex Stubb, is looking forward to the funeral. The International Monetary Fund is at odds with the Europeans over the levels of Greek debt.

Everywhere there is the sight of leaders seeking to escape responsibility for a sorry state of affairs. For weeks, in anticipation of the criticism certain to be directed at them in the event of a Greek collapse, senior German figures have privately been saying: “Well, nobody will be able to say that we did not try our best.”

At the meeting of eurozone finance ministers on Saturday that ended the Greek bailout, the French finance minister, Michel Sapin, was the only one with enough humility to remark that maybe the Europeans had got some things wrong and that things might have been done differently, according to witnesses.

The IMF has argued internally for at least three years that the organisation was breaching its own rules by taking part in a bailout that held out little prospect of achieving the debt sustainability the fund’s rescues prescribe. Christine Lagarde, the IMF chief, ignored the advice of her own experts and remained in the failing project.

Following the calling of the Greek referendum, the collapse of the negotiations and the end of the bailout on Saturday, the European commission, keen to salvage the situation while diverting blame, stated publicly for the first time on Sunday that the proposed deal would have included a form of debt relief for Greece, prime minister Alexis Tsipras’s central demand.

“The understanding of all parties involved was that [Saturday’s] Eurogroup meeting should achieve a comprehensive deal for Greece, one that would have included not just the measures to be jointly agreed, but would also have addressed future financing needs and the sustainability of the Greek debt,” a commission statement said.

Berlin will not wear that any time soon. According to people present, Wolfgang Schäuble, Germany’s finance minister, told his eurozone counterparts there was no way he would risk taking a Greece bailout proposal to the Bundestag at this stage, especially when Tsipras had roundly rejected it.

“We would have to say to our population and parliament that [the Greek] government would do what it is obliged to do in the programme, although it just recommended that people should not accept it,” he then told German TV.

Eurozone leaders ooze confidence that Greece’s financial collapse could be easily weathered by the rest of the currency bloc. No one really knows how the chaos, likely if Tsipras wins his referendum on Sunday, will affect the rest of the zone economically and financially. But it is political poison.

For Europe’s leaders, five years of failure in Greece mean that everyone’s a loser.

guardian
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5684 em: 2015-06-28 19:17:16 »
eu vou marcar para amanhã uma manifestação de apoio aos gregos. a ver se consigo superar o estrondoso movimento que já ocorreu em Viseu.
http://blasfemias.net/2015/06/25/depois-da-grandiosa-manifestacao-de-apoio-ao-governo-grego/

Mario Balotelli

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5685 em: 2015-06-28 19:19:12 »
Citar
#Tsipras suggested lenders' refusal to extend program & forcing banks to close would make Greeks more determined to vote "no"

Ele diz a verdade, para a fatia que já tirou os seus depósitos do banco ...  :D

Esses, se não forem pensionistas, devem estar a imaginar que agora se sairem do Euro ficam ricos.  :D

Os colchões devem estar cheios de dinheiro.

Alías, a economia grega caracterizava-se por uma enorme circulação de cash em lugar da vulgar utilização de meios de pagamentos de "plástico".

É pornográfico que a massa debaixo dos colchões seja ELA.
" A ANA é que sabe disto e o resto é conversa"
BALOTELLI

Lark

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5686 em: 2015-06-28 19:21:30 »
Panic Among Hedge Fund Investors in Greece

David Einhorn is among the hedge fund investors who have collectively poured more than 10 billion euros into Greek bond, bank stocks and other investments.

ATHENS — For investors around the world looking at Greece, there was but one question Sunday: What is going to happen when the markets open on Monday?

That question is particularly acute for the hedge fund investors — including luminaries like David Einhorn and John Paulson — who have collectively poured more than 10 billion euros into Greek government bonds, bank stocks and a slew of other investments.

This weekend, Nicholas L. Papapolitis, a corporate lawyer here, was working around the clock comforting and cajoling his frantic hedge fund clients.

“People are freaking out,” said the 32-year-old Mr. Papapolitis, his eyes red and his voice hoarse. “They have made some really big bets on Greece.

But there is no getting around the truth of the matter, he said. Without a deal with its European creditors, the country will default and Greek stocks and bonds will tank when the markets open.

On the ground here, the surprise decision of the Greek prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, to hold a referendum has turned what was a bank jog into more of a sprint with most Greeks now fearing that the country’s depleted banks will be closed on Monday.

Panicky depositors spent the weekend pulling an estimated one billion euros from the banking system, stashing the cash in their houses or exchanging them for bulging bags of gold coins.

The yields on Greek government bonds, now around 12 percent are expected to soar as investors rush to unload their positions in a market that of late has become extremely hard to trade.

Bank stocks, if the stock market, in fact, opens, will also be hit with a selling wave, as they cannot survive if the European Central Bank withdraws its emergency lending program.

There are not as many hedge funds in Greece as there were a year ago, when it is estimated that around 100 foreign funds were sitting on big investment stakes. Their bet was that the previous Greek government would be able to complete the arduous process of economic reform in Greece that started five years ago.


The country became the epicenter of Europe’s debt crisis after Wall Street imploded in 2008. Now, it is struggling to pay its debt, and its people and creditors are growing restive.

When it became clear that a radical Syriza government under Mr. Tsipras would come to power, many investors quickly turned heel, dumping their Greek government bonds and bank stocks in large numbers before and after the election.

But a brave, hardy few stayed put — around 40 to 50, local brokers estimate — taking the view that while the new left-wing government could hardly be described as investor friendly, it would ultimately agree to a deal with Europe. It would be a bumpy ride for sure, but for those taking the long view that Greece would remain in the eurozone, holding onto their investments as opposed to selling them in a panic seemed the better course of action.

For now, at least, that seems to be a terrible misjudgment, especially if Greece defaults and leaves the euro.

Most of the hedge fund money in Greece is invested in about 30 billion euros of freshly minted Greek government debt securities that emerged from the 2012 restructuring of private sector bonds.

The largest investors include Japonica Partners in Rhode Island, the French investment funds H20 and Carmignac and an assortment of other hedge funds like, Farallon, Fortress, York Capital, Baupost, Knighthead and Greylock Capital.

A number of hedge funds have also made big bets on Greek banks, despite their thin levels of capital and nonperforming loans of around 50 percent of assets.

They include Mr. Einhorn at Greenlight Capital and Mr. Paulson, both of whom have invested and lost considerable sums in Piraeus Bank. Fairfax Financial Holdings and the distressed investor Wilbur Ross own a large stake in Eurobank, one Greece’s four main banks.

Big positions have also been taken in some of Greece’s largest companies. Fortress Capital bought $100 million in discounted debt belonging to Attica Holdings, Greece’s largest ferry boat holder. York Capital has taken a 10 percent stake in GEK Terna, a prominent Greek construction and energy firm.

In 2014, Blackstone’s credit arm bought a 10 percent chunk of the Greek real estate developer Lamda Development. And Third Point, one of the earliest, most successful investors in Greek government bonds, has set up a $750 million Greek equity fund.

Many of these forays were made during the heady days of 2013 and early 2014 when the view was that, in a rock bottom global interest rate environment, risky Greek assets looked attractive, especially if the reform process continued.

Among the most dubious of these, was a 10 percent equity stake, then worth about $137 million, that Mr. Paulson’s hedge fund took last year in the Athens water monopoly. The company had little debt and was slated to be privatized, making it an attractive prospect at the time.

But the privatization process is now frozen and the monopoly is struggling to collect payment on its bills from near broke government entities, making it unlikely that Mr. Paulson will get much of his money back.

To be sure, many of these hedge funds are enormous and their Greek investments represent a fairly small slice of their overall portfolio.

Mr. Papapolitis, who used to work at Skadden Arps law firm in New York structuring exotic real estate deals, moved back to Greece in 2008 and has led some of the biggest hedge fund deals in the market.

Of the same age and generation as many of his clients, he feels their pain.

“These guys are my friends,” he said. “They invested in Greece when the economy was improving. And now this happens — I feel obliged to be there for them.”

He is not the only point man for hedge funds coming to Greece.

Last week, a group of about 12 of the largest remaining hedge funds arrived in Athens to attend a seminar organized by George Linatsas, a founding partner of Axia Ventures, an investment bank that specializes in Greece, Cyprus, Portugal and Italy, as well as shipping.

With all the large investment banks and law firms having largely given up on Greece, Mr. Linatsas and his team of analysts became the main port of call for hedge funds that started buying Greek government bonds in 2012.
Then, the bonds were trading at 12 cents on the euro and they soon shot up to 60 cents, making billions of dollars for those early investors.

“People made their careers on that trade,” Mr. Linatsas said. “The problem now is politics and whether there is a government that can take this country to the next stage.”

The outlook seems grim.

Indeed, in recent months these investors have spent little time breaking down balance sheets or discounting cash flows. Instead, they have spent every effort trying to figure out what the Syriza government is up to.

Some have tried to get an edge by listening to Greek radio. Others have hired outside firms to study video clips of Mr. Tsipras and his finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, to try and discern from body movement and voice tone whether they are telling the truth. And an increasing number have resorted to begging journalists for inside scuttlebutt.

Because few Syriza officials will meet with the investors, a large number of them have banded together, an unusual occurrence in an industry that puts the highest of premiums on secrecy. They exchange tips and theories via emails when they are apart and over wine-soaked dinners in Athens during their frequent trips here.

At times the swankiest hotel in town, the Hotel Grande Bretagne (or G.B. as it is commonly known) is so chock full of hedge fund executives (mostly in their 30s) that some have called it the G.G.B. — the acronym for Greek government bonds.

In recent days, as it has become clear that the Syriza government was not going to accept the latest proposal from its creditors, stress and anxiety has, in some cases, turned to outright anger.

“I just can’t believe these guys are willing to torch their own country,” one investor with a large holding of Greek bonds lamented in an email. “They thought this was a game. Now, when the supermarkets run out of food, gas stations run out of gas, hospitals have no medicine, tourists flee, salaries don’t get paid because banks shut — what are they going to do?”

nyt
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5687 em: 2015-06-28 19:22:34 »
vai ser um verão em cheio para os carteiristas, com os turistas a chegarem carregadinhos de dinheiro vivo.
acho que vou ao eléctrico 28 tirar um curso de formação intensivo e ponho-me a caminho. dá para todos.

Mario Balotelli

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5688 em: 2015-06-28 19:23:40 »
Outra coisa...

É preciso pagar os salários dos funcionários públicos.

Será que a Grécia tem dinheiro para fazer face a este compromisso ?

Acredito que sim...

O Garoto (Tsypras) é um louco...mas nem tanto.
" A ANA é que sabe disto e o resto é conversa"
BALOTELLI

Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5689 em: 2015-06-28 19:24:20 »
ele diz que sim (vale o que vale)

Citar
Depois de Alexis Tsipras ter acusado o Banco Central Europeu (BCE) de ter “boicotado” o referendo, o primeiro-ministro grego voltou a pedir uma extensão “curta” do programa de assistência à Grécia, numa carta enviada ao presidente do Conselho Europeu, do BCE, da Comissão Europeia, do Parlamento Europeu e aos líderes da zona euro. Se os líderes aceitarem a nova proposta grega, é possível que o BCE volte atrás na decisão de limitar o teto da assistência de liquidez de emergência (ELA).

Além de ter pedido calma e de ter dito que “os depósitos estão completamente seguros”, o primeiro-ministro diz que os salários vão ser pagos, conta a Bloomberg.

Reg

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5690 em: 2015-06-28 19:27:52 »
Outra coisa...

É preciso pagar os salários dos funcionários públicos.

Será que a Grécia tem dinheiro para fazer face a este compromisso ?

Acredito que sim...

O Garoto (Tsypras) é um louco...mas nem tanto.

pode emitir divida ao bancos gregos  ainda tem depositos euros congelados

ou usar reservas ouro como colateral

nao pagar ao exercito e fatal
« Última modificação: 2015-06-28 19:31:47 por Reg »
Democracia Socialista Democrata. igualdade de quem berra mais O que é meu é meu o que é teu é nosso

Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5691 em: 2015-06-28 19:38:25 »
Mas sejamos realistas, caso houvesse acordo ou haja acordo, a grecia não tem (assim como Portugal entre outros países) como pagar a gigantesca divida, como tal eu aposto numa derrocada mais mês menos mês ou mais ano menos ano.

Para já manter a dívida fica mais barato à Grécia do que a Portugal, com uma dívida menor.

E pelo que foi explicado aqui no fórum, a banca Grega é de uma ineficiência brutal o que afecta não só a banca como o imobiliário. Assim, e principalmente existindo mais exemplos desses, fica a ideia que a Grécia tem um potencial de crescimento forte, se eliminar essas ineficiências. Com algum crescimento a dívida logo pareceria muito menor.

Resta existir a vontade de fazer as reformas para destruir essas ineficiências.


Mas para que tudo isso aconteça é preciso ter o mercado global a ajudar, ou seja com crescimentos grandes mas não é isso que está a acontecer, como tal se o mercado cair? todos estes países parecem navios a ir ao fundo

Não, quando tens ineficiências brutais, basta eliminá-las para surgir logo algum crescimento económico.

Por exemplo se emprestar para imobiliário é ruinoso devido ao funcionamento do sistema, assim que tornes o sistema razoável a actividade de financiamento e construção imobiliária eleva-se logo um bocado, "tudo o resto inalterado".
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5692 em: 2015-06-28 19:47:26 »
Indicação de que na Terça existirão limites de levantamento de 60 EUR e os bancos abrirão.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5693 em: 2015-06-28 19:54:48 »
Seria um erro grande a UE aceder a uma extensão, nem que por dias. Isso possibilitaria aos Gregos retirar mais uma dezena ou mais de biliões aos Europeus via ELA.

* EU COMMISSION CONFIRMS IT RECEIVED GREECE'S EXTENSION REQUEST

* EURO-AREA LEADERS WILL DISCUSS GREEK LETTER, COMMISSION SAYS
« Última modificação: 2015-06-28 19:59:38 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Zel

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5694 em: 2015-06-28 19:59:05 »
com o referendo a porta nao vao conceder nenhuma extensao

espero que a grecia saia, ehhe

Incognitus

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5695 em: 2015-06-28 20:09:41 »
Bem ...

3:08:28 PM RTRS - GREEK FINANCIAL STABILITY COUNCIL RECOMMENDED KEEPING BANKS CLOSED FOR NEXT SIX WORKING DAYS- SOURCE.FTATBNK
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5696 em: 2015-06-28 20:11:22 »
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60 euros por dia? Falta confirmação oficial

Falta confirmação oficial, mas vários órgãos de comunicação social gregos estão a avançar que os bancos reabrirão dia 7 de julho e que, até lá, os gregos podem levantar 60 euros por dia nas caixas multibanco.

Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5697 em: 2015-06-28 20:12:11 »
Se abrirem os bancos para darem 60 euros há espancamentos.

Zel

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5698 em: 2015-06-28 20:12:38 »
os gregos sao uns cobardes, 69% quer ficar no euro

agora nao se podem queixar mais... tem exactamente o que querem
« Última modificação: 2015-06-28 20:15:50 por Neo-Liberal »

Automek

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Re: Grécia - Tópico principal
« Responder #5699 em: 2015-06-28 20:18:02 »
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A correspondente do Guardian em Atenas reporta que já é oficial a decisão do ministério das Finanças de que os bancos vão permanecer fechados até ao dia 7 de julho e o controlo de capitais vai possibilitar levantamentos de 60 euros por dia