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Incognitus

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3440 em: 2015-05-29 19:56:23 »
É uma estupidez não pagar o que a Grécia deva!


É uma estupidez QUEM não pagar o que a Grécia deva?


Acho que a maioria acha que é de facto uma estupidez a Grécia não o fazer. Mas outros? Aí julgo que já não vai existir consenso.  :D
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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vbm

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3441 em: 2015-05-29 20:12:10 »
Pagar o que a  Grécia deva a instituições suas credoras é de elementar bom senso a União Monetária Europeia fazê-lo e operar esse crédito como um investimento que renderá amplo proveito. Lembrei-me deste procedimento imediato: aprovar uma taxa de imposto extraordinário sobre todas as mais-valias bolsistas durante cinco  anos prorrogáveis, tributo a transferir pelas bolsas dos estados-membros para o Banco Central de Strasbourg. Posta em vigor esta lei, proclamar no  dia seguinte que a dívida pública de todos os estados-membros acima de 60% do respectivo PIB, será substituída por perpetuidades de juro baixo, que os bancos nacionais e o banco central negociarão  livremente no mercado secundário. O que te parece isto, Incognitus?

Incognitus

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3442 em: 2015-05-29 20:27:15 »
Não estou bem a ver a lógica. Estás a dizer que as entidades Europeias a que a Grécia deve devem pagar a dívida da Grécia a elas próprias, é?


 :D


Em todo o caso acho que se é para existir perdão para alguém, deve existir perdão para todos. Ou seja, se cortas 10% da dívida da Grécia usando um esquema qualquer, o lógico é que cortes 10% a toda a gente. Quem não tenha dívida fica com dinheiro (de qq forma não há quem não tenha dívida)

Fazer outra coisa qualquer é beneficiar quem pior se portou (de resto isso é típico em soluções colectivistas -- vide Montepio, se rebentar e ajudarem as pessoas, estarão a penalizar quem foi responsável e assumiu perdas para tirar o dinheiro e não assumir o risco. Ou na SS: quem não pagou aquando do Passos (incluindo o Passos), foi "beneficiado" versus quem foi responsável e pagou.


Todas essas soluções não fazem sentido do ponto de vista ético.
« Última modificação: 2015-05-29 20:30:21 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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vbm

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3443 em: 2015-05-29 20:53:30 »
Sim, o banco central do euro deveria resgatar com perpetuidades a dívida dos estados devedores, mas nalguma igualização per capita de contribuinte, algo a ver para se ser justo. Quanto a credores se  pagarem a si próprios não é bem, podem traficar entre si os títulos de crédito que transacionem  no mercado secundário. Mas sejam obrigações, sejam acções  todas as operações seriam tributadas de forma a financiar banco central europeu a conceder jubileus de perdões de dívida de vez  em quando! (uma coisa assim tipo <fundo de resolução> para as dívidas se quitarem nas calmas e segundo uma política anti-cíclica de open market.)
« Última modificação: 2015-05-29 20:54:52 por vbm »

Zark

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3444 em: 2015-05-30 00:39:49 »
Finland’s economy: In search of the sunny side

After advocating austerity for others, Finland is now pondering cuts of its own to deal with years of recession
Finland is failing to find an exit from a two-year recession.

The spiral of lost jobs and income is also wrecking the country's cherished reputation for sound public finances. While southern Europe starts to win back investors after years of donor-imposed job losses and welfare cuts, Finnish welfare costs and taxes have risen as jobs are lost. Government levies as a share of gross domestic product (GDP) have jumped to a European Union high, piling costs onto the private sector.

Finnish exports, investments and retail sales are all tumbling and firms are putting out profit warnings. To match Insight

It is 9:30am on a freezing morning in Helsinki and the queue outside a nondescript building in the north of the city is hundreds of people long. An old woman at the front says she has been waiting for two-and-a-half hours.

The 2,600 people who will eventually traipse in are not waiting for the latest Nokia or Apple phone but something more basic: eggs, bread, milk, bananas, fruit juice and other staples. “The queue is longer and longer and longer,” says Marcus, one of the workers at the Helsinginkatu food bank. “We have many rich people here in Finland but this is the other side.”

Heikki Hursti, the manager, says the number of people using the facility has doubled since 2012. “People don’t have enough to pay for food and rent. They just don’t have enough to live, because a lot of them don’t have a job.”

The hardship in Finland, which has been mired in recession for the past three years, upends the notion of the eurozone crisis being just about free-spending southern Europeans. It has also infected parts of the austere, triple-A rated north.

Many policy makers and business people talk of the Nordic country being in a depression that exceeds its crisis in the 1990s, a period Finns see as worse than the 1930s. “Finland is in very, very deep trouble,” says Anders Borg, the former Swedish finance minister who is conducting a review of Finland’s economy for the government. Alex Stubb, Finland’s prime minister, talks of a “lost decade”.

At the heart of Finland’s woes is a competitiveness problem. Wage costs have spiralled higher than any other European country in recent years and it has one of the most rapidly ageing populations after Japan. Public finances are in much better shape compared with many southern European countries. But like their cousins to the south, many are beginning to bristle at the constraints of euro membership.

“The problem with a structural crisis like we have today is that there is no easy solution to it,” says Björn Wahlroos, the country’s leading businessman. “We are stuck with a domestic labour market that used to have an escape clause: that was the currency or devaluation. But the escape valve has been closed, and the consequence is catastrophic.”

The problems are deep-rooted. The mainstays of the economy for decades — the forestry industry and the electronics sector around Nokia — have fallen into sharp decline. As in the 1990s, the economic problems of neighbouring Russia have spilled across the border. And Finland’s post-second world war baby boom is now weighing on the country as the number of people employed starts to drop, leading Standard & Poor’s last year to become the first rating agency to strip it of its triple-A ranking.

“We have been hit by various shocks at the same time. There are few, if any, countries in Europe that have had the same shocks,” says Erkki Liikanen, the central bank governor.

Need for a remedy

There is a sense of malaise as Finland approaches parliamentary elections on April 19. Even as there appears to be broad agreement on the outlines of what needs to be done — reforms of everything from the labour market to healthcare, municipalities and tax — questions remain about the willingness of the country to take tough medicine.

In many European countries, the ideal formula would involve economic stimulus, especially since Helsinki’s debt-to-GDP ratio is a relatively low 60 per cent. But in Finland, which became renowned among southern European countries as the main cheerleader for austerity during the euro crisis, most party leaders say more belt-tightening is needed.

There is an acknowledgment that this could hurt growth in the short run but a hope that it will make the country more dynamic in the long term, especially by trimming back the size of a state that is one of the largest in Europe.

Juha Sipilä, the frontrunner to be prime minister after the election and leader of the opposition Centre party, says he wants to cut spending by €2bn a year. Finland’s budget deficit in 2014 was 3.4 per cent, the first time it exceeded the EU’s stability and growth pact’s limit of 3 per cent since 1996, while debt-to-GDP is likely to exceed 60 per cent this year.

“I think this situation is worse than in the early 90s because we don’t have any big vision at the moment . . . We haven’t done the big reforms in the good times and they are very difficult to make now in the bad times,” says Mr Sipilä.

In some ways, the comparison with the 1990s seems favourable. Real gross domestic product fell 13 per cent from the peak in 1989 to the trough in 1993; today, it is only about 5 per cent below its 2008 high, with the economy contracting by just 0.1 per cent last year. Unemployment has ticked up from about 6 per cent in 2008 to close to 9 per cent but that is still well below the 18 per cent reached in the 1990s.

Shares on the Helsinki stock exchange have risen by three-quarters during the past three years of recession while they fell by two-thirds during the 1990s crisis.

But there was a clear course of action for the problems in the 1990s: purging lenders of bad loans, government intervention. The prescription for the current crisis is not as clear. The gradual economic downturn also means some Finns may be oblivious to the scale of the challenge, say some policy makers.

Pasi Sorjonen, an economist at Nordea, the biggest bank in the Nordic region, says Finland is in the midst of a depression and is heading for its fourth consecutive year of recession. The government will need to cut taxes and spending at the same time, he argues. “Putting the house in order is the first and most important thing that the government must do,” he says. “If at the same time they cut taxes they help healthy businesses. Whereas they now harm the healthy businesses just to protect jobs in the public sector.”

Competitiveness crisis

Finland could be helped by the lower oil prices and weaker euro but it is battling formidable long-term trends. Since 2008, Finland has lost competitiveness against all EU countries as its wage costs have spiralled. As the unit labour costs of Ireland and Spain have fallen, Finland’s have increased by about 20 per cent, according to ING.
Figures from the Conference Board, a US business group, are just as damning: from 2007 to 2012 Finland’s unit labour costs in manufacturing rose by 6.3 per cent a year, faster than any of the countries surveyed except Australia and Japan.

At the same time, Finland’s productivity fell by 3.9 per cent a year, far more than any other country.
Mr Wahlroos is scathing about the big pay increases, especially in 2007-08. He adds that the average Finn works about 50,000 hours in his or her lifetime, compared with 70,000 for Germans, 85,000 for Americans and more than 100,000 for many Asians. “We are losing jobs not just to China and India but also Germany or Spain,” he adds.

Like others in Finland, he pins the blame at least in part on the euro.

As in Greece, which saw the biggest pre-crisis rise in labour costs, Finland previously dealt with the problem by devaluing its currency. Now its options are tougher. “In terms of competitiveness, their cost level is the same as France, 20 per cent more than Germany, 15 per cent more than Sweden. To take back some 10-15 per cent in competitiveness is an enormous challenge. There is a huge need for structural reforms,” says Mr Borg.

The government — once a six-party coalition that is now down to four parties — has tried to change this by pushing up the retirement age and pulling down the age for young people to stop studying and start working. But the trend in recent years is ever downwards, with the employment rate falling from 74.4 per cent of people aged 15-64 in June 2008 to 66.7 per cent this January.

Without further action, it could weaken more. The proportion of Finland’s population that is of working age is due to fall from 65 per cent in 2012 to 58 per cent by 2030. Over the same period, the over 65s are expected to rise from 18 per cent to 26 per cent.

Mr Liikanen concedes that the key structural issue is not unemployment but lower employment. While he is adamant that Finland is not in a depression, the central bank governor says global growth is not nearly as supportive of Finnish attempts to exit recession as it was in the 1990s. “The capacity to act is what will be tested today.”
The consensus is that the government — in charge since 2011 but with a prime minister in the job for less than a year — has not done a great job at halting the decline.

Mr Stubb acknowledges the problem. “I think the truth should always be told: I don’t think this has been a successful government,” he said last month.
In other countries, this might lead to rich pickings for populist parties, particularly anti-EU ones such as the Finns Party, formerly known as the True Finns. But in recent polls they are performing less well than in 2011, at the height of anxiety over the Greek crisis. Timo Soini, the party leader, is still hopeful of joining a new coalition, blaming government inaction and the single currency for Finland’s predicament.

When Nokia’s mobile phone business first went into decline and was then sold to Microsoft in April last year, it could have been seen as a national tragedy
“It’s partly because of the euro and it’s partly because of other stupid policies. The policies of the past four years have been extremely bad,” he says.

Coalition focus

If Mr Sipilä wins the election — his Centre party remains about 8 percentage points clear of its rivals — he is likely to form a more compact coalition consisting of one or two of Mr Stubb’s National Coalition party, Mr Soini’s Finns and the Social Democrats.

Mr Sipilä, who made millions in telecoms and bioenergy, says he wants to run the government more like a business with a smaller cabinet that functions like an executive board, implementing five big ideas. He points with distaste to the fact that the public sector accounts for 58 per cent of GDP while taxes are equivalent to 46 per cent of GDP.

“The number one priority is to find a growth path again,” he adds, saying the main solutions include streamlining the healthcare system, shrinking the public sector and creating 200,000 new jobs in the next decade.

Many in Finland invoke the concept of sisu, a term that means courage or perseverance, much on display in the 1939-40 winter war with the Soviet Union, for the reason the country will eventually pull through. Growth this year could well be slightly positive.

There are plenty, however, who think the effort involved may be more than many Finns appreciate.
“Once you have gone far enough down the road to depression or whatever you want to call it, the remedies you need to come up with tend to be too distasteful to those who think there is a welfare state solution,” Mr Wahlroos says.

ft
If begging should unfortunately be your destiny, knock only at the large gates.

Arabian Proverb
--------------------------------------------------
You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run
You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done

Kenny Rogers – The Gambler
------------------------------------------
It is not enough to be busy; so are the ants. The question is: What are we busy about?
Henry David Thoreau

Zark

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3445 em: 2015-05-30 00:42:13 »
Paul Krugman - New York Times Blog

Northern Discomfort

The FT has an interesting although garbled story about Finland’s economic woes. Ignore the numbers, which as best I can tell are all wrong (is this becoming an FT trademark?); more crucially, someone seems confused about the difference between wages and unit labor costs. If you go to the Conference Board numbers, you find that Finland has indeed seen a rapid rise in ULC, but not because of a wage explosion; it’s all about collapsing manufacturing productivity.

But the broader story here is that we’re increasingly seeing that the problems of the euro extend well beyond the troubles of southern European debtors. Economic performance has also been very bad in several northern nations with good credit ratings and low borrowing costs — Finland, Denmark (which isn’t on the euro but shadows it), the Netherlands.

What’s going on? Well, in the case of Finland we’re seeing the classic problems of asymmetric shocks in a currency area that isn’t optimal. Finland’s two main export sectors, forest products and Nokia, have tanked; this creates the need for a sharp fall in relative wages to make up for the lost markets, but because Finland doesn’t have its own currency anymore this adjustment must take the form of a slow, grinding internal devaluation (which is, by the way, why the garbled discussion of wages turns the story into nonsense).

The problems of the euro, in other words, weren’t caused by an outbreak of fiscal irresponsibility that won’t recur if the Greeks can be brought to heel; they weren’t even, in a deep sense, the result of big capital flows that won’t come back again. The whole single currency project was flawed from the start, and will keep generating new crises even if Europe somehow gets through this one.

krugman
« Última modificação: 2015-05-30 00:42:59 por Zark »
If begging should unfortunately be your destiny, knock only at the large gates.

Arabian Proverb
--------------------------------------------------
You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run
You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done

Kenny Rogers – The Gambler
------------------------------------------
It is not enough to be busy; so are the ants. The question is: What are we busy about?
Henry David Thoreau

Zark

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3446 em: 2015-05-30 01:21:45 »
irónico.
os finns são os piores inimigos dos gregos (e dos portugueses e dos espenhois e dos iatalianos e dos irlandeses)nas conversações, cimeiras, reuniões.
muitas vezes diz-se que a a alemanha é que encrava tudo mas as a mais das vezes são os finlandeses.
agora estão a ver como elas lhes mordem.

tem que se arranjar uma forma inteligente de acabar com o euro. e rápido.

Z
If begging should unfortunately be your destiny, knock only at the large gates.

Arabian Proverb
--------------------------------------------------
You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run
You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done

Kenny Rogers – The Gambler
------------------------------------------
It is not enough to be busy; so are the ants. The question is: What are we busy about?
Henry David Thoreau

Incognitus

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3447 em: 2015-05-30 01:29:39 »
A Finlândia está a levar uma tareia pelos factores apresentados. Para eles não vai ser fácil, correu tudo mal ao mesmo tempo (floresta, devido à internet; Nokia, devido à Apple e Android).
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Kin2010

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3448 em: 2015-05-30 01:41:32 »
Já diz o provérbio: "Olho no Lar..burro e outro no Zar...cigano".   :D

Citar
MUNICH – Game theorists know that a Plan A is never enough. One must also develop and put forward a credible Plan B – the implied threat that drives forward negotiations on Plan A. Greece’s finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, knows this very well. As the Greek government’s anointed “heavy,” he is working Plan B (a potential exit from the eurozone), while Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras makes himself available for Plan A (an extension on Greece’s loan agreement, and a renegotiation of the terms of its bailout). In a sense, they are playing the classic game of “good cop/bad cop” – and, so far, to great effect.
Plan B comprises two key elements. First, there is simple provocation, aimed at riling up Greek citizens and thus escalating tensions between the country and its creditors. Greece’s citizens must believe that they are escaping grave injustice if they are to continue to trust their government during the difficult period that would follow an exit from the eurozone.

Second, the Greek government is driving up the costs of Plan B for the other side, by allowing capital flight by its citizens. If it so chose, the government could contain this trend with a more conciliatory approach, or stop it outright with the introduction of capital controls. But doing so would weaken its negotiating position, and that is not an option.
Capital flight does not mean that capital is moving abroad in net terms, but rather that private capital is being turned into public capital. Basically, Greek citizens take out loans from local banks, funded largely by the Greek central bank, which acquires funds through the European Central Bank’s emergency liquidity assistance (ELA) scheme. They then transfer the money to other countries to purchase foreign assets (or redeem their debts), draining liquidity from their country’s banks.
Other eurozone central banks are thus forced to create new money to fulfill the payment orders for the Greek citizens, effectively giving the Greek central bank an overdraft credit, as measured by the so-called TARGET liabilities. In January and February, Greece’s TARGET debts increased by almost €1 billion ($1.1 billion) per day, owing to capital flight by Greek citizens and foreign investors. At the end of April, those debts amounted to €99 billion.
A Greek exit would not damage the accounts that its citizens have set up in other eurozone countries – let alone cause Greeks to lose the assets they have purchased with those accounts. But it would leave those countries’ central banks stuck with Greek citizens’ euro-denominated TARGET claims vis-à-vis Greece’s central bank, which would have assets denominated only in a restored drachma. Given the new currency’s inevitable devaluation, together with the fact that the Greek government does not have to backstop its central bank’s debt, a default depriving the other central banks of their claims would be all but certain.
A similar situation arises when Greek citizens withdraw cash from their accounts and hoard it in suitcases or take it abroad. If Greece abandoned the euro, a substantial share of these funds – which totaled €43 billion at the end of April – would flow into the rest of the eurozone, both to purchase goods and assets and to pay off debts, resulting in a net loss for the monetary union’s remaining members.
All of this strengthens the Greek government’s negotiating position considerably. Small wonder, then, that Varoufakis and Tsipras are playing for time, refusing to submit a list of meaningful reform proposals.
The ECB bears considerable responsibility for this situation. By failing to produce the two-thirds majority in the ECB Council needed to limit the Greek central bank’s self-serving strategy, it has allowed the creation of more than €80 billion in emergency liquidity, which exceeds the Greek central bank’s €41 billion in recoverable assets. With Greece’s banks guaranteed the needed funds, the government has been spared from having to introduce capital controls.
Rumor has it that the ECB is poised to adjust its approach – and soon. It knows that its argument that the ELA loans are collateralized is wearing thin, given that, in many cases, the collateral has a rating below BBB-, thus falling short of investment grade.
If the ECB finally acknowledges that this will not do, and removes Greece’s liquidity safety net, the Greek government would be forced to start negotiating seriously, because waiting would no longer do it any good. But, with the stock of money sent abroad and held in cash having already ballooned to 79% of GDP, its position would remain very strong.
In other words, thanks largely to the ECB, the Greek government would be able to secure a far more favorable outcome – including increased financial assistance and reduced reform requirements – than it could have gained at any point in the past. A large share of the acquired resources measured by the TARGET balances and the cash that has been printed would turn into an endowment gift for an independent future.
Many people in Europe seem to believe that Varoufakis, an experienced game theorist but a political neophyte, does not know how to play the cards that Greece has been dealt. They should think again – before Greece walks away with the pot.

Read more at http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/varoufakis-ecb-grexit-threat-by-hans-werner-sinn-2015-05#r0rjK7xOipYjMWoy.99



Isto vem exactamente na linha de uma teoria que eu coloquei aqui há alguns dias: o ECB está a permitir estes aumentos de ELA constantes precisamente porque quer reforçar o poder negocial grego. Ou seja, o ECB não só não é dominado pela Alemanha, como está a dar um golpe encapotado nos interesses alemães.

Uma hipótese ainda mais cínica é que o ECB até está a fazer isso com a conivência da Alemanha... ou melhor, das elites e governo alemães que, em última análise, querem dar o golpe nos contribuintes alemães, mas têm que o fazer com um esquema ultra obscuro e complexo como este.


Zark

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3449 em: 2015-05-30 02:01:06 »
A Finlândia está a levar uma tareia pelos factores apresentados. Para eles não vai ser fácil, correu tudo mal ao mesmo tempo (floresta, devido à internet; Nokia, devido à Apple e Android).

pois. e dentro do euro estão encravados. não podem ajustar. têm que miserabilizar, como nós e os gregos.
vai ser interessante ver a evolução da posição finlandesa na europa.

Z
If begging should unfortunately be your destiny, knock only at the large gates.

Arabian Proverb
--------------------------------------------------
You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run
You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done

Kenny Rogers – The Gambler
------------------------------------------
It is not enough to be busy; so are the ants. The question is: What are we busy about?
Henry David Thoreau

vbm

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3450 em: 2015-05-30 09:33:46 »
Citação de: Kin
Isto vem exactamente na linha de uma teoria que eu coloquei aqui há alguns dias: o ECB está a permitir estes aumentos de ELA constantes precisamente porque quer reforçar o poder negocial grego. Ou seja, o ECB não só não é dominado pela Alemanha, como está a dar um golpe encapotado nos interesses alemães.

Uma hipótese ainda mais cínica é que o ECB até está a fazer isso com a conivência da Alemanha... ou melhor, das elites e governo alemães que, em última análise, querem dar o golpe nos contribuintes alemães, mas têm que o fazer com um esquema ultra obscuro e complexo como este.

Parece-me ser assim. E acho bem. Mas quero para nós também.
Mas prefiro a inflação entre 0 e 1% per annum
« Última modificação: 2015-05-30 09:34:26 por vbm »

Zel

  • Visitante
Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3451 em: 2015-05-30 13:58:14 »
A Finlândia está a levar uma tareia pelos factores apresentados. Para eles não vai ser fácil, correu tudo mal ao mesmo tempo (floresta, devido à internet; Nokia, devido à Apple e Android).

pois. e dentro do euro estão encravados. não podem ajustar. têm que miserabilizar, como nós e os gregos.
vai ser interessante ver a evolução da posição finlandesa na europa.

Z

sim, eh um problema estar no euro nessas condicoes. mas os paises nordicos sabem reformar-se e tem uma cultura que permite isso. nos nao. portanto para nos nao poder desvalorizar eh muito mais dramatico do que para eles.

tommy

  • Visitante
Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3452 em: 2015-05-30 15:09:33 »
Não reconhecer que Portugal pura e simplesmente não se consegue reformar sozinho, é ser mesmo cego.
Ups utilizei a palavra "cego" ... lá vai ele extrapolar, de forma abusiva, que estou a fazer considerações depreciativas sobre os invisuais.  :'(
« Última modificação: 2015-05-30 15:10:51 por Incognitus »

tommy

  • Visitante
Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3453 em: 2015-05-30 15:21:52 »
Não me obriguem a apagar tanta coisa, tentem ser mais calmos e amigáveis para os outros não obstante o debate.

Tens razão e louvo-te a paciência.

Voltando ao tópico: Há obviamente países que se conseguem reformar e são auto-disciplinadores, sendo que nesses até faz sentido ter moeda própria. Noutros como Portugal e a Grécia, é uma bênção não ter moeda própria, pois hoje teríamos feito ainda menos reformas do que as que fizemos. Hoje teríamos quantidades absurdas de moeda a circular, com o inerente ataque brutal aos pequenos aforradores e muito provavelmente uma crise de inflação semelhante à Venezuela.

Em conclusão, estaríamos pior.

Zel

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3454 em: 2015-05-30 15:25:10 »
Não me obriguem a apagar tanta coisa, tentem ser mais calmos e amigáveis para os outros não obstante o debate.

Tens razão e louvo-te a paciência.

Voltando ao tópico: Há obviamente países que se conseguem reformar e são auto-disciplinadores, sendo que nesses até faz sentido ter moeda própria. Noutros como Portugal e a Grécia, é uma bênção não ter moeda própria, pois hoje teríamos feito ainda menos reformas do que as que fizemos. Hoje teríamos quantidades absurdas de moeda a circular, com o inerente ataque brutal aos pequenos aforradores e muito provavelmente uma crise de inflação semelhante à Venezuela.

Em conclusão, estaríamos pior.

nao eh uma bencao para os desempregados. so eh uma bencao para quem mantem o rendimento. ha pois 2 realidades nos paises do sul. e creio que no global se ficou a perder.

tudo isto pode vir a ser bom se um dia aprenderem a reformar. mas enquanto nao aprenderem eh pior
« Última modificação: 2015-05-30 15:26:09 por Neo-Liberal »

Zel

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3455 em: 2015-05-30 15:29:57 »
uma coisa pouco debatida eh que a alemanha entrou no euro com o marco demasiado valorizado. tiveram bastantes problemas no inicio. mas e o que fizeram, ficaram a chorar ou a espera de falirem?
nao... fizeram reformas. sem imposicoes externas, por auto-iniciativa. portanto fizeram aquilo q no sul so se consegue com crises e a torcer bracos. e as vezes nem assim.

tommy

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3456 em: 2015-05-30 15:36:54 »
nao eh uma bencao para os desempregados. so eh uma bencao para quem mantem o rendimento.

É difícil de analisar qual seria o efeito na taxa de desemprego se num país em crise como Portugal colocasses em prática medidas revolucionárias como isenções fiscais a vários níveis ( IRC, IRS, taxas e taxinhas das câmaras / juntas / estado ) de quem estando desempregado, começasse o seu próprio posto de trabalho / ou fosse contratado por uma empresa, etc. Incentivos que durassem muito tempo, ou que para profissionais liberais / micro e pequenas empresas fossem concedidas deduções elevadas. Enfim uma panóplia de ideias, que para mim são sempre melhores que imprimir papel.

Imprimir é mais fácil reconheço para resolver o problema dos desempregados. Mas discordo que seja uma boa medida de longo prazo, porque parece-me manipulação do mercado laboral com recurso à moeda. Mas posso estar errado.

Zark

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3457 em: 2015-05-30 17:02:41 »
o que me irrita é estar-se sempre a passar atestados de menoridade e incapacidade a uma nação inteira. neste caso nós.
os finlandeses têm algum gene maravilhoso que os leva a suportar a austeridade melhor que nós?
claro que não.
vão sofrer tanto ou mais do que nós. mais ainda porque não estão habituados e têm um estado social muito forte e com um peso grande na economia.
eficientíssimo e que produz serviços a milhas de distância do nosso. mas vai ser lá que vão ter ir buscar o dinheiro. e os finns habituados a uma produção social explêndida, vão--se ressentir e não vai ser pouco.
e vais ver se o futuro me vai dar ou não razão.
não me admirava nada a serem os primeiros a saltar fora do euro.

Z
If begging should unfortunately be your destiny, knock only at the large gates.

Arabian Proverb
--------------------------------------------------
You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run
You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done

Kenny Rogers – The Gambler
------------------------------------------
It is not enough to be busy; so are the ants. The question is: What are we busy about?
Henry David Thoreau

Incognitus

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3458 em: 2015-05-30 17:53:37 »
Um gráfico que mostra uma coisa que está um bocado errada na Grécia, em Portugal, etc ...


http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/OECD2014-Social-Expenditure-Update-Nov2014-8pages.pdf



"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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vbm

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3459 em: 2015-05-30 18:12:42 »
Aparentemente o "highiest quintile" dos países pobres, como os da Ibéria e os outros da 2ª metade do gráfico, deve ser tão pobre quanto o "lowest quintile" dos países ricos da 1ª metade!