Olá, Visitante. Por favor entre ou registe-se se ainda não for membro.

Entrar com nome de utilizador, password e duração da sessão
 

Autor Tópico: Grécia - Tópico principal  (Lida 1839888 vezes)

vbm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 13827
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2860 em: 2015-04-23 10:43:06 »
Esta noção de abundância, tão debatida entre intelectuais e futurólogos é bastante controversa e de algum modo ilusória. Para já, Sebastião Salgado faz-nos ver que mais de 40% da superfície esférica do globo está num  estado virgem, quase selvagem, e abriga tribos humanas da mesmíssima espécie dos que habitam nas grandes urbes e metrópoles. Depois, há fome no Mundo, e quem morra de fome.

A seguir, ser rico não é própria ou somente haver privados, cidadãos particulares, a viverem no conforto e mordomias da vida moderna, aos milhões de casos de felizes contemplados!

É haver também sectores públicos ricos, com elevado desempenho na satisfação de necessidades comuns à vida colectiva; é as universidades, institutos de investigação, laboratórios de ciência, de medicina e de farmácia, grandes empresas industriais, transportes marítimos, terrestres, aéreos e espaciais, existirem desenvolvidos no ápice do conhecimento científico e tecnológico.

O que não seja o máximo viável, possível, é um patamar sub-óptimo, não qualificável de "abundância", - embora possa ser de alguma felicidade razoável. Mas o que jamais se conseguirá com o excesso demográfico que o planeta suporta, já no presente.
« Última modificação: 2015-04-23 10:45:41 por vbm »

Deus Menor

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 1972
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2861 em: 2015-04-23 10:48:17 »

É haver também sectores públicos ricos, com elevado desempenho na satisfação de necessidades comuns à vida colectiva; é as universidades, institutos de investigação, laboratórios de ciência, de medicina e de farmácia, grandes empresas industriais, transportes marítimos, terrestres, aéreos e espaciais, existirem desenvolvidos no ápice do conhecimento científico e tecnológico.


Esse sector Público "rico" existiu , às custas de poupanças dos Alemães & Co que nos
emprestaram do dinheiro.

Esse sector Público "rico" existiu , mas era uma ilusão , inflacionou-se os custos
sem aumentar o retorno.

vbm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 13827
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2862 em: 2015-04-23 10:52:26 »
Os países de opereta não são guia para políticos sérios.

D. Antunes

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 5284
    • Ver Perfil
Grimbo
« Responder #2863 em: 2015-04-23 12:31:07 »
Pode a Grécia entrar em bancarrota e ficar no euro? Pode, é um "Grimbo"
23 Abril 2015, 12:06 por André Cabrita-Mendes | andremendes@negocios.pt

 
Depois do "Grexit" em 2012, o Citigroup volta a cunhar uma nova expressão: o "Grimbo", cenário em que, a Grécia continua no euro mesmo sem acordo com os parceiros europeus.
Pode a Grécia entrar em bancarrota, não fechar o acordo com os parceiros europeus e continuar no euro? Pode e a isso o Citigroup chama-lhe um "Grimbo", a junção de Grécia mais limbo.
 
Foi o Citigroup que cunhou em 2012 o termo "Grexit" para caracterizar o risco então iminente da saída de Atenas da Zona Euro. Foi neste ano que foi acordada uma reestruturação da dívida helénica e ficou fechado o segundo resgate.
 
Agora volta a cunhar uma nova expressão num momento delicado para Atenas: o "Grimbo", que configura dois "cenários cinzentos onde a Grécia não vai obter dinheiro dos parceiros europeus e não existe uma resolução num período alargado", disse à Bloomberg o economista do Citigroup, Ebrahim Rahbari.
 
No primeiro cenário, Atenas e os parceiros europeus chegam a acordo, mas só após a imposição de controlos de capital e de um possível incumprimento de pagamentos.
 
Isto poderá acontecer se as negociações se arrastarem até o momento em que, por exemplo, o Banco Central Europeu (BCE) pressionar a Grécia ao impor restrições à linha de emergência de liquidez (programa ELA) para os bancos gregos.
 
"O choque pode dar uma motivação extra a ambos os lados para concluir as negociações", argumenta o banco norte-americano numa análise enviada aos seus clientes.
 
No segundo cenário, o "Grimbo" também poderá acontecer se não houver novo acordo com os parceiros europeus, se o Governo entrar em bancarrota, se forem introduzidos controlos de capital e se forem emitidas promissórias, mas ainda assim a Grécia continua dentro do euro.
 
"Ao longo do tempo, o enfraquecimento da situação de liquidez e em particular as restrições no levantamento de depósitos nos bancos, iriam aumentar significativamente a pressão sobre o Governo grego, podendo provocar nova eleições", escreve o Citigroup.
 
"Isso poderia levar a um novo resgate dentro da Zona Euro ou a uma possível Grexit, mas isto ainda poderia deixar a Grécia no limbo durante um período alargado de tempo", sublinham.
 
Avisa também que o Grexit não vai acontecer de um dia para o outro, pois "pode não ser o resultado mais provável no curto prazo, mas será muito provavelmente o resultado de um longo processo".
 
Governo e bancos gregos têm dinheiro até Junho
 
Na mesma análise enviada aos seus clientes, o Citigroup antevê, além do "Grimbo", os quatro principais cenários para os próximos meses. No primeiro, Atenas e os parceiros europeus chegam a acordo. Depois, um acordo é fechado, mas somente depois da imposição de controlo de capitais e/ou de uma bancarrota da Grécia.
 
No terceiro cenário, não há nenhum acordo, o Governo entra em bancarrota, são impostos controlos de capitais e mesmo assim não há nenhuma saída da Grécia do euro. Por último, a Grécia sai efectivamente do euro, com uma bancarrota do Governo, sem acesso ao fundo de emergência de liquidez do BCE, com controlo de capitais e sem acordo com os parceiros europeus.
 
O Governo grego e os bancos do país vão ter dinheiro até Junho, diz o Citigroup que considera que não vai haver acordo no Eurogrupo de 11 de Maio e que Atenas vai efectuar o pagamento de dívida ao Fundo Monetário Internacional (FMI) a 12 de Maio.
 
No entanto, o banco deixa um alerta para os próximos tempos. "Existem muitas incertezas sobre a posição orçamental e financeira grega e a disponibilidade do BCE em continuar a providenciar a linha de emergência de liquidez aos bancos gregos".
“Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.”
“In the short run the market is a voting machine. In the long run, it’s a weighting machine."
Warren Buffett

“O bom senso é a coisa do mundo mais bem distribuída: todos pensamos tê-lo em tal medida que até os mais difíceis de contentar nas outras coisas não costumam desejar mais bom senso do que aquele que têm."
René Descartes

tommy

  • Visitante
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2864 em: 2015-04-23 17:24:21 »
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/fiscal-consolidation-for-greece-recession-by-michael-heise-2015-04

Citar
MUNICH – Greece’s government, led by the left-wing Syriza party, is demanding a new deal from its European creditors, claiming that the bailout program provided by the “troika” (the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank, and the European Commission) has plunged their country into a spiral of deflation and austerity. But, while no one disputes that things have gone wrong in Greece, the argument that fiscal consolidation necessarily leads to never-ending recession is not borne out by the facts.

Consider Ireland, which was among the countries hardest hit by the global economic crisis. Having become exceptionally bloated during the pre-2008 boom years, Ireland’s banks buckled under huge losses when the property bubble burst. To avert a devastating bank run, the government guaranteed the entire outstanding stock of deposits and liabilities.

As a result, government debt soared from 25% of GDP in 2007 to more than 120% in 2013. Add private debt, and the Irish sit on a debt mountain worth nearly 400% of GDP. In Greece, where private debt is much lower, total debt amounts to around 300% of GDP.

Nonetheless, Ireland regained access to capital markets in early 2013, and investors have few qualms about the country’s prospects. Indeed, the economy is growing briskly, unemployment is below the eurozone average, and the government’s borrowing cost is one percentage point lower than the US Treasury’s.

Ireland has proven that even in a severe crisis, resolute consolidation and reform can quickly stabilize the economy and prepare the ground for a return to growth. At the height of the crisis, Ireland’s government cut public-sector salaries and pensions, raised the retirement age (to 68 by 2028), slashed welfare benefits, and increased the value-added tax.

Of course, there are important differences between Ireland and Greece. Austerity was bound to hurt Greece’s rigid economy – one of the least flexible in Europe – much more than Ireland’s, where flexible labor and product markets allowed massive job losses in the housing, construction, and banking sectors to be offset gradually by job gains in other sectors. The Irish economy also benefited from its strong emphasis on exports and close ties with the relatively thriving economies of the United Kingdom and the United States.

But Ireland still holds important lessons for Greece – beginning with the need to regain the confidence of financial markets. An unwavering focus on putting its public finances in order and cleaning up the banking sector enabled Ireland to exit its €67.5 billion ($73.7 billion) bailout program as planned at the end of 2013.

Moreover, the yield on ten-year Irish government bonds, which peaked at almost 15% in mid-2011, now stands at an all-time low of less than 1%. Though the ECB’s large-scale bond-buying program helped to lower bond yields, the Irish government’s success in returning to the capital market without the safety net of a precautionary credit line from its international creditors – an example that Portugal later followed – should not be overlooked.

Once investor confidence returned, a virtuous cycle took hold. For example, Ireland was able to repay the €12.5 billion it owed to the IMF early, once it was able to refinance itself more cheaply in the markets, helping it to reduce its interest-rate bill further.

And, for Ireland, confidence and growth have gone hand in hand. Having shrunk by as much as 6% in 2009, the Irish economy was outperforming the other bailout countries by 2011. Last year, Ireland recorded a 4.8% growth rate – by far the highest in the eurozone. And it is on course to grow by 3% this year, double the eurozone average.

This growth has been driven by a variety of factors. Wage restraint and productivity gains have improved competitiveness, thereby boosting exports. And now that lower oil prices and a five-percentage-point drop in unemployment are bolstering consumption, the recovery is expanding to other sectors.

In short, the credibility that Ireland gained through resolute fiscal policy and reforms helped to restore confidence, facilitating a return to growth and thus fiscal consolidation. Of course, the precise policy approach taken in one country cannot be imitated elsewhere. But Ireland’s can-do attitude and steadfast approach can serve as an inspiration for Greece and other struggling eurozone countries.

Read more at http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/fiscal-consolidation-for-greece-recession-by-michael-heise-2015-04#v2GXGMGl0fP5vckZ.99

peterpint

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Mensagens: 22
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2865 em: 2015-04-23 23:29:01 »
É fantástico! A culpa não é do ladrão. É dos que foram roubados!
Sim senhor, tommy! Esse é um raciocínio do qual nunca mais me vou esquecer.

Deixa de conversa de tasca.
Se queres penalizar o banqueiro corrupto e continuar em democracia, votarias em quem?

(Nao estou bem a par da vossa partilha mutua aka despique...mas..mesmo assim e porque gosto de tremoço)


No antonio borges, no vitor gaspar...entre muitos outros....elitistas...banksters bastardos....nao votei de certeza

Tommy, nao considero aquela conversa do Lark "de tasca" ...mas quem sou eu...
Daí a ter enviado para alguns colegas e amigos...professores universitarios entre outros...

Esta lama é transparente demais.
Mas sim. Em quem votaria? Até aos 27 nunca. Depois tive de dar umas aulas sobre democracia e lá me fui recensear.
Passei a votar. 35 agora.

Concordo com o discurso do Lark. Mas sou apenas mais um. Nível de abstençoes reflecte algo p ti?
Democracia representativa cristalizou-se e na cúpula da mesma estao os fdp dos banksters
e reminiscencias em vàrios graus de elites... que irao moribundar nao sem antes mamarem um pouquito mais
Ah...hoje foi noticia o motorista do secretario das finanças...24 anos... ao q sei estes motoristas ganham o ordenado minimo...NOT...
Mas espera este tinha credenciais!  ...muito fortes... mas de ordem criminal...

Afilhado de um motorista do gabinete do Pedro Passos Coelho.
Epá lembrei me agora.... o nosso ex primeiro em quem "todos" votámos está a ver o mundo as riscas...hihi
Isto sim é conversa de tasca...
Ou espera ... serà q nestes dez milhoes havera uns quantos a fazer tesesitas de mestrado ou doutoramento q incidam sobre isto...?
Se calhar ha.... se calhar...houve.
Ha muita gente letrada a analisar por esse mundo fora o discurso neo liberal...como p ex se apropriam do conceito
e o propalam, de empreendedorismo. E a produzir papers.
Conversa de tasca, desculpa Tommy.

Mas ja me perdi.
So vinha mesmo dizer q adorei a multa ao deutsche bank.

Food for thought com uns amendoins e umas bejecas

Cumps
Bn
Pp


Lark

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 4627
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2866 em: 2015-04-23 23:29:58 »
Merkel: must prevent Greece running out of cash before deal
BRUSSELS | BY PAUL TAYLOR

(Reuters) - German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday everything must be done to prevent Greece running out of money before it reaches a cash-for-reform deal with its international creditors, amid heightened concern that Athens is nearing the brink.

Merkel, Europe's pre-eminent leader, was speaking after a meeting she called "constructive" with Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras on the sidelines of a European Union summit in Brussels. She said they had agreed to keep the contents of their discussion confidential.

Asked how great the risk was of Athens running out of cash before any agreement was reached with its official lenders, she told a news conference: "Everything must be undertaken to prevent that."

Tsipras told reporters they had noted significant progress had been made in the negotiations and added: "We have covered a large part of the distance."

He said he was very optimistic and that they had moved closer to a deal on an economic reform program that would unlock frozen bailout funds. A Greek official reported "convergence" with Merkel on some issues including a lower budget surplus target for Greece.

However, EU officials cautioned that wide differences remain over reforms of the labor market, pension system, taxation and public finances, and much work remained to produce a binding, detailed agreement.

Euro zone finance ministers meet in Riga on Friday to review progress -- or the lack of it -- in the slow-moving negotiations between Athens and its creditors. European Commission Vice-President Valdis Dombrovskis said there had been little progress and he was getting worried about Greece's financial position.

The Greek official said there was "convergence" that Greece would aim for a primary budget surplus - before debt service - of 1.2 to 1.5 percent of gross domestic product this year. That is far below the goals of 3 percent in 2015 and 4.5 percent in 2016 set in Greece's 2012 EU/IMF bailout program.

The "convergence" also covered privatizations, of which he gave no details, and making Greece's general secretariat for revenues independent of the finance ministry, he said.

While Greece has pushed for a loose political agreement, Germany, its biggest creditor, has insisted it is up Athens to satisfy representatives of the European Commission, the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank first.

PAYMENT HUMP LOOMS

Greece has yet to agree with its partners on a comprehensive list of reforms to secure 7.2 billion euros remaining from its 240 billion euro EU/IMF bailout. Without a deal, investors fear it could run out of money and default on its official creditors, possibly forcing it to leave the 19-nation single currency area.

Euro zone and Greek officials said on Wednesday that Athens could probably scrape together public cash reserves to meet its payment obligations into June, but it faces a hump of bond redemptions to the ECB in July and August that it cannot meet without a fresh injection of funds.

"We can't wait for a deal in June due to our liquidity problems. We must find a solution before that," a government official in Athens told Reuters on condition of anonymity.

The ECB's chief economist, Peter Praet, said the central bank was prepared to keep authorizing emergency lending to Greek banks for now because they were assessed to be solvent.

"It is true that it is a stressful situation," Praet said at an event in Berlin. "I'm not going to discuss how long this will go on. Verbal discipline is of the essence in crisis times."

The ECB agreed on Wednesday to raise the cap on emergency liquidity assistance to Greek banks to 75.5 billion euros and did not toughen the conditions on collateral they have to present for funding, banking sources said. The ECB's Governing Council is reviewing the Greek lending weekly.

Tsipras, elected in January on an anti-austerity platform, is resisting cutting pensions, liberalizing the labor market or raising value-added tax on Greek holiday islands.

EU officials said Brussels was pressing Athens to move ahead with other measures, such as a radical shake-up of product and service markets to sweep away privileges and protections for vested interests, as well as greater fairness in taxation to shift the burden to the better-off and improve collection.

They are also looking for progress on privatizations, which leftist ministers halted when they took office in late January.

Greek daily Kathimerini reported that Athens is considering asking the euro zone's rescue fund to buy Greek government bonds held by the ECB to pay for debt redemptions due this summer.

That would amount to a third Greek bailout requiring euro zone governments' agreement and parliamentary approval in some countries, such as Germany and Finland, which could only be achieved if there were a deal on a comprehensive reform package.

reuters
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 4627
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2867 em: 2015-04-24 00:16:24 »
Greece Hauls in Media Mogul Leonidas Bobolas for Back Taxes
Scion of powerful family released after paying; latest chapter in leftist government confronting oligarchs
By NEKTARIA STAMOULI April 22, 2015 4:51 p.m. ET

ATHENS—Greek prosecutors arrested the scion of one of Greece’s most powerful families on Wednesday, in line with the left-wing government’s vows to take on the oligarchs whom many Greeks see at the root of the country’s ills.

Leonidas Bobolas, whose business interests range from construction to media, was charged with tax evasion relating to a hidden Swiss bank account. He is one of the highest-profile figures to be hauled in by public prosecutors in years, and his arrest comes amid an increasingly vitriolic confrontation between the government and media owners.

Mr. Bobolas, 53 years old, was released later on Wednesday after paying €1.8 million ($1.9 million) in back taxes, and his lawyer says the issue has now been settled.

The Bobolas family, under its patriarch Gerogios Bobolas, Leonidas’s father, is among Greece’s most prominent media families. Its Pegasus publishing group comprises some two dozen media properties, ranging from the Greek language edition of Elle and financial daily Imerisia to Greece’s leading television channel, Mega.

Since coming to power in late January, Greece’s Syriza-led government has taken aim at the media magnates, who it says have abused their control of the media for years by influencing government and using that influence to enrich themselves through state contracts.

The new government has promised to hold the first-ever auction of the television frequencies that Greece’s private channels, such as Mega, use but never formally paid for when they first began operating in the late 1980s and early 1990s. It has also started investigating concessional loans that Greek banks have extended over the years to media companies, many of which are now deeply indebted.

Despite that, banks have continued to issue new loans to the media companies—including one right before the national elections Syrizas won in January, according to two government officials—even as they freeze lending to other economic sectors.

Earlier this month, the government told Greece’s private television stations they collectively owed some €24 million ($26 million) in back taxes since 2011—something the media owners deny. The association representing the country’s private television stations accused the government of attempting “a repossession of private enterprises.”

The government appears unmoved. “Media is an expensive hobby and whoever wants to exercise it has to be prepared to pay,” said Nikos Pappas, Greece’s minister of state responsible for the media.

For much of modern Greece’s history, the radio and television sector was controlled by the state; until 1989 Greece had only two television channels, both state-owned. Liberalization was done in an ad hoc manner, with private channels being awarded temporary operating licenses but never paying for their broadcast frequencies.

Those temporary licenses remain in effect until today, making Greece the only European Union country that has never conducted a formal auction of public broadcast spectra.

Among the pledges the new government has made to eurozone creditors backing Greece’s €240 billion bailout is to raise €350 million from the tender of broadcast frequencies. Relevant legislation is expected to be submitted for vote in Parliament by the end of June.

The current government isn't the first to take on the media barons or Greece’s other oligarchs. Both former Prime Minister Costas Simitis, a socialist, and former Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis, a conservative, tried to break the Bobolas family’s hold over their media empire by barring media owners from participating in lucrative government contracts in any economic sector. In addition to Pegasus, the family controls Greece’s largest construction group, Ellaktor, which is one of the country’s major beneficiaries of public works projects.

‘Steps in this direction are going to give the government a public-relations boost.’
—John Dimakis of Athens-based communications consultancy STR
However, both government attempts to rein in the Bobalases’ influence—the first in 2002, the second three years later—were stymied by legal objections from the European Union.

Although media owners are now being singled out, many Greeks say the control of the country’s entrenched oligarchy extends far beyond that sector to industries ranging from banking and oil refining to shipping.

Whether the current government will succeed where previous efforts have failed is unclear, but the effort alone could win it points with the public.

“Steps in this direction are going to give the government a public-relations boost,” said John Dimakis at STR, an Athens-based communications consultancy. “But it remains to be seen in practice whether it will lead to tangible results.”

Even government officials have their doubts. One of the government’s first moves after coming to power was to create a new agency for tackling corruption and appoint respected Supreme Court prosecutor Panagiotis Nikoloudis to head it.

“Corruption in Greece does not exceed the European Union average, but it is very complex,” said George Vasileiadis, Mr. Nikoloudis’s deputy. “We are not magicians. Efforts to tackle corruption and increase public revenue require time.”

The government’s recent attempts to investigate the loans given to the media companies, for example, have faced difficulties. Mr. Pappas, the minister of state for media, says Greece’s central bank has been reluctant to divulge data on past-due media loans held by the local banks.

“We hope the central bank Governor Yiannis Stournaras is more cooperative on these issues in the future,” Mr. Pappas said.

“Bank of Greece, like any other banking institution, is not allowed by law to disclose any data on loans,” a senior central bank official said. “However, this data is immediately available to the financial prosecutors and the new agency for tackling corruption.”

wsj
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 4627
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2868 em: 2015-04-24 00:18:18 »
assim já te satisfaz mais, Kin?
só lá estão nem há três meses.
roma e pavia... tralala

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Iznogoud

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Mensagens: 217
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2869 em: 2015-04-24 02:43:57 »
NEW YORK — Top executives on Wall Street and senior policymakers in Washington are warning their European counterparts not to let Greece default and leave the eurozone, fearing the market reaction at a time of sluggish growth in the U.S. and instability in the global economy.

Some say they are not as freaked out as they were in 2012 about the prospect of always-in-crisis Greece getting kicked out of the eurozone, which could happen if a deal isn’t reached quickly. Some would even like to let the Greeks go and move on with life.

But then people mention Lehman Brothers. And the Russian default. And even an assassination in Sarajevo in 1914. And theoretical discussion of how better prepared the world is for a Greek exit quickly turns into fevered rumination on how it still might spark global financial Armageddon.

The bottom line: Wall Street and Washington want to keep Greece in the eurozone because no one really knows what might happen otherwise. And with the U.S. economy wobbling again, China slowing and the Middle East a short step from full-blown crisis, adding a Greek wild card to the deck is too scary a thought.

“We are certainly better off than we were when this was happening three or four years ago,” said Larry Summers, the former U.S. Treasury secretary. “But the world vastly underestimated the impact of the Russian default, the subprime crisis and the risk of letting Lehman go. This is like pulling the thread of a sweater. It could tear off with no consequence. Or it could unravel entirely and set off something very big.”

The fear that a Greek default and exit from the eurozone could spark a market panic that might destroy the currency union itself and ripple around the world is also held at the highest levels of the Obama administration. Administration officials mostly share the view of European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, who told POLITICO this week that a Greek exit could “lead us to consequences that people don’t know the amplitude about.”

Administration officials are publicly and privately pressing Greece and its European creditors to come up with some kind of deal by the end of the week, though that deadline now appears to be slipping. Such a deal would release $7.6 billion to allow Greece to continue to pay its bills, at least until the next reckoning over the nation’s $273 billion bailout hits this summer.

Treasury Secretary Jack Lew last week warned that if Greece were to leave the eurozone, it would cause severe economic hardship for the nation’s 11 million citizens and could destabilize markets.

“I have said consistently that no one should think that all of the risk of a change like that is predictable in advance,” Lew told Bloomberg Television. “And even if the contagion risk is much less now than it was in 2012 and earlier, it would not be a good thing in a world economy just recovering from a deep recession to have that kind of uncertainty introduced.”

The U.S. has no direct role in talks between Greek officials, led by finance minister Yanis Varoufakis, and creditors from the European Stability Mechanism, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund. But Treasury officials continue to press all sides to come to terms before a finance ministers meeting in Riga, Latvia, on Friday.

Reports Wednesday suggested no deal is likely to emerge before the Friday meeting and that Greece could stumble along until June without defaulting. But if no agreement is reached by then, European lenders could refuse to release any more bailout money to Greece, which could, in turn, quickly run out of cash to pay its bills. Greece this week ordered local governments to start keeping cash with the nation’s central bank, a move reminiscent of the Argentinian collapse in 2002.

If Greece can’t unlock new bailout funds it could lead the nation to default on its loans and set the stage for a Greek exit — or “Grexit” — the widely used portmanteau word for the country leaving the currency union.

A senior Treasury official told POLITICO that he expected a deal ultimately would be reached. He said that the alternative could conceivably set the stage for other nations to leave the common currency. This could then lead to the collapse of the currency itself, deep recession across Europe and days — if not weeks — of volatile market reaction that could damage investor and business confidence enough to derail a U.S. economy that is growing only about 2 percent at best right now.

None of these frightening outcomes are at all certain, the Treasury official said. And it remains quite possible that Greece could leave the euro with relatively little impact. But the uncertainty remains so high that a deal must be reached, said the official, who declined to be quoted directly or identified by name in order to speak freely about highly sensitive talks.

Another senior Washington policymaker said the risk associated with a Greek exit alone was not especially high. But this person added that market events rarely happen in a vacuum and that a Greek exit coupled with a foreign policy problem or a mistake by the U.S. Federal Reserve in interest rate policy could tilt markets and the global economy back toward recession or worse.

“No one thing creates pure panic, but you could easily have two or three viable candidates that could move in parallel with each other — geopolitical or monetary — that could create a very powerful effect,” said the policymaker, who also requested anonymity.

Investors got a taste of just how risky a Greek default and possible euro exit could be last Friday when reports that a deal might not be reached helped spark a global sell-off that at one point saw the Dow Jones Industrial Average down over 300 points. Interest rates on Greek debt also rose to two-year highs.

Rates on other European debt, including the debts of Portugal and Italy, also initially rose before ECB buying kicked in, suggesting that if Greece falls, investors could then start to punish other nations viewed as vulnerable to default. Spiking rates could turn once manageable debt loads into crushing burdens.

Fears over this kind of vicious cycle leave many big Wall Street money managers and executives skeptical of the argument that the world is now prepared for a Greek exit and that such an outcome might actually be preferable to going through these near misses over and over.

These money managers say that if Greece does wind up leaving the eurozone, it will probably not be a “Grexit” at all. That phrase, they say, connotes an orderly process in which the country’s euros are carefully replaced with drachma and nobody panics and pulls all their money out of the bank.

Instead, many Wall Street executives say it’s more likely that a Greek departure would be an accident — now known on Wall Street as a “Graccident” — in which the county is forced out of the eurozone by bank runs and a collapse in investor confidence.

“If a ‘Graccident’ were to occur, it would be very messy,” said Mohamed A. El-Erian, chief economic adviser at global money management firm Allianz. “And the global economy is still too fragile to take a major shock. The good news is that Europe has done a lot to increase its defenses against contagion. But it could still be very dangerous to stumble into an accident.”

In a recent note to clients, UBS analyst Paul Donovan warned of investor complacency over the possibility of a Greek exit. “Investors seem to have embraced the belief that if Greece were to walk away from the euro, it would walk alone with minimum contagion to other countries. This belief is dangerous,” he wrote. “The contagion risk after a possible Greek exit arises if bank depositors elsewhere in the euro area believe that a physical euro note held ‘under the mattress’ at home today is worth more than a euro in a bank — because a euro in a bank might be forcibly converted into a national currency tomorrow.”

Not all Wall Street analysts or executives share this view.

In fact, some argue that the time has come to recognize that Greece, particularly under its leftist Syriza government led by Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, is never going to enact serious fiscal reforms no matter what it says publicly and will eventually default on its debt.

The case for not caring much about a “Grexit” holds that most of the nation’s debt is now held by other countries rather than banks, making financial system failures less likely. Meanwhile, European economic growth is picking up and should be able to withstand a period of turbulence, this line of thinking holds. And Greece has a tiny economy whose collapse would cause localized pain but register barely a blip around the globe.

Some top executives on Wall Street argue that it would be much worse for creditors to cave in to demands for more lenient terms from Greek’s anti-austerity political leaders. Because that would mean other debtor nations would also soon clamor for relief. Better to rip the bandage off and put an end to the charade that Greece will ever pay back all its loans.

“In 2012, if Greece blew up, it would have posed serious systemic risk,” said one Wall Street chief executive who declined to be identified by name. “But now, the private sector has nowhere near what anyone would dream of calling systemic exposure. In fact, any capitulation by creditors of any significant magnitude would be the real source of systemic risk.”

This executive added that a Greek exit could actually boost global markets because “you kick Greece out and the world realizes this is not a systemic problem and the euro rallies because they just got rid of the weakest link.”

But the more widely held view — in Washington and on Wall Street — is that while Europe has, indeed, built more firewalls and reduced private-sector exposure to Greek debt, the unknown reaction to a “Grexit” is potentially much worse than the annoyingly familiar and increasingly tiresome rounds of angst-ridden talks between Greece and its creditors.

“If Greece leaves, it will never be possible to say again that exit is impossible, and if exit is always possible then you put increasing pressure on the weaker countries,” said Summers. “Of course, it’s also not tenable for the euro area to firmly establish that exit is impossible, or no country will feel any disciplinary pressure. So the matter is quite delicate, and we all have to hope and push for a mutually satisfactory conclusion.”


politico
Quero ser Califa no lugar do Califa

Kin2010

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 3989
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2870 em: 2015-04-24 02:57:41 »
assim já te satisfaz mais, Kin?
só lá estão nem há três meses.
roma e pavia... tralala

L

Mas nesse aspecto estão a fazer muito pouco. Ao ponto de serem pressionados pelo Eurogrupo para fazerem mais. Irónico, quando o Syriza é de extrema esquerda. É o que eu suspeito, eles nem sequer de extrema esquerda são. Podem ser uma espécie de pantomina, para fazer muito barulho e deixar tudo como está. Mais ou menos como o nosso BE.




Iznogoud

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Mensagens: 217
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2871 em: 2015-04-24 03:06:36 »
assim já te satisfaz mais, Kin?
só lá estão nem há três meses.
roma e pavia... tralala

L


Mas nesse aspecto estão a fazer muito pouco. Ao ponto de serem pressionados pelo Eurogrupo para fazerem mais. Irónico, quando o Syriza é de extrema esquerda. É o que eu suspeito, eles nem sequer de extrema esquerda são. Podem ser uma espécie de pantomina, para fazer muito barulho e deixar tudo como está. Mais ou menos como o nosso BE.


estou a falar dist:  http://www.thinkfn.com/forumbolsaforex/index.php/topic,1181.msg184400.html#msg184400

ainda não fez três meses que ios gajos lá estão. a maioria são professorer universitários sem experiência de gestão política.
há que dar tempo ao tempo.

para já há uma pressão muito forte dos US para haver um acordo que de alguma forma  satisfaça as duas partes.
os fundo para o bancos estão assegurados até junho.

acho que antes de seis meses isto não vai dar nada. lá para o fim de Julho talvez haja alguma coisa. metem-se as férias da chanceler e do schauble, portanto passa iso para a reentré. setembro, outubro.

até lá pode ser que vão metendo uns capitalistas corruptos no xilindró.a época de verão também vai dar uma certa animação à economia...
antes de outubro, nada.

L
Quero ser Califa no lugar do Califa

Iznogoud

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Mensagens: 217
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2872 em: 2015-04-24 21:48:10 »
Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis has hit back at suggestions that eurogroup talks about a new finance package for his country have stalled amid frustrations at his handling of negotiations.

“I believe we are close to an agreement,” he told euronews’ Efi Koutsokosta. “The distance from the agreement is inversely related – in proportion to the smoke and fire and brimstone that you get.”

Varufakis denied suggestions that personal relations between him and the other finance ministers had deteriorated irreparably. Bloomberg news reported today that ministers had referred to Varoufakis as a “time-waster” a “gambler” and an “amateur”, but the former economics professor insisted the situation was very different.

“There is a major disconnect between what you herar in the press and the actual reality on the ground. We are adults and colleagues, we respect and even like each other,” he told euronews.
He did admit, however to “a certain intensity at times regarding the negotiations” and predicted that the talks might have to “reach the very last moment before a mutualy beneficial outcome emerges from a conflicting narrative”.

The talks are aimed at securing a new round of funding to allow Greece to meet its obligations to pay debtors in the coming weeks but progress has been hampered by rows over how far the government in Athens is prepared to go in implementing economic reforms. Many economists predict that an agreement will be too difficult to reach and the country could default on some of these payments. Varoufakis admitted that the possibility of such a situation (known as plan B) had been raised by one of his colleagues, believed to have been the Slovenian finance minister, during the talks.

“My immediate response was to say there is no such plan B, there cannot be such plan B, and any mention of a plan B is profoundly anti-European and in the end that’s against the grain of the interests of that particular country represented by that particular colleague,” he said.

fonte
Quero ser Califa no lugar do Califa

Kin2010

  • Ordem dos Especialistas
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 3989
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2873 em: 2015-04-25 23:36:40 »
Lark, repara neste argumento, que é tão simples:

De um artigo no Observador:
"Peter Kazimir, ministro das Finanças da Eslováquia já tinha expressado a sua frustração ainda a reunião não tinha começado. O eslovaco teve, ainda, mais uma troca de argumentos mais acesa com Yanis Varoufakis, quando o grego defendeu na reunião que não poderia aplicar mais cortes aos seus pensionistas, com o eslovaco a contrapor com os cortes que ele próprio teve de aplicar aos seus concidadãos."

Estás a ver por que é que a posição do Syriza é moralmente tão estranha?


tommy

  • Visitante
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2874 em: 2015-04-26 12:59:51 »
 ;D ;D

vbm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 13827
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2875 em: 2015-04-26 14:14:27 »
Todo o debate da dívida grega é parvoíce.
Há muito que os credores privados directos
descontaram os seus créditos no banco de Franlfürt,
de modo que as 'marionettes' do eurogrupo clamam
mecânica e acefalamente, 'se somos obrigados a cumprir
a Grécia que cumpra também!' Simplesmente, isso nem
é um equacionamento sequer do problema a resolver!

O euro foi adoptado para concorrer em poder
com outras divisas fundamentais
do comércio internacional:
o dólar, o yuan, a libra
o yen, o franco suíço!

Desistir de ser parte nesse concerto
é diminuir o poder de voto e de veto
na ordem económica mundial. Ora,
o BCE seguramente vai tomar
isso em consideração, pois
sendo ele o verdadeiro
credor dos gregos,
tudo porá em
risco se os
levar
à bancarrota.

Por mim, 'se fosse eu' o governador do BCE,
não deixaria cair no incumprimento a dívida dos gregos.
Os especuladores internacionais que decidissem se isso
fortaleceria ou enfraqueceria o valor do euro. Eu,
por mim, aceitaria que os gregos pagassem
o que devem nem que fosse em cem anos
ou mesmo duzentos! Tudo faria para
manter o euro como divisa
de pagamento e reserva
de valor universal.
Até a indexaria
ao ouro nalguma
proporção razoável e condicionada.

É uma estupidez deixar cair a Grécia.
A França está a adaptar-se, a Espanha está
a equilibrar-se, nós vamos dobrar o turismo,
a Grécia há de emergir em economia mais sã.


Isto é o que defendo.
Se isto não for feito,
prevejo o pior para
a União da Europa.

Zel

  • Visitante
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2876 em: 2015-04-26 15:04:19 »

vbm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Mensagens: 13827
    • Ver Perfil
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2877 em: 2015-04-26 18:00:54 »
E o Varoufakis fez muito bem
em reagir como Roosevelt.

O Eurogrupo é um grupo
de empregados de tesouraria
de caixa, que não têm a sombra
sequer do que é ser estadista!

Fez muito bem Varoufakis.
A minha curiosidade centra-se
no Mári Draghi - e no Victor Constâncio... :)

Zel

  • Visitante
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2878 em: 2015-04-26 18:14:46 »
o varoufakis tem claramente uma veia exibicionista, gostava de ser famoso desde pequenino

tommy

  • Visitante
Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #2879 em: 2015-04-26 19:12:43 »
E o Varoufakis fez muito bem
em reagir como Roosevelt.

O Eurogrupo é um grupo
de empregados de tesouraria
de caixa, que não têm a sombra
sequer do que é ser estadista!

Fez muito bem Varoufakis.
A minha curiosidade centra-se
no Mári Draghi - e no Victor Constâncio... :)

Estadista = pedir dinheiro emprestado a quem trabalha e poupa, dar a parasitas e depois declarar default.  ;D

Obrigado, mas não obrigado.