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Dilath Larath

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1680 em: 2015-02-28 21:49:23 »
quem é que é capitalista? eu cá não!
quem é que é libertário? eu cá não!

eheh vcs matam-me de riso, pá!

D
O meu patrão quer ser Califa no lugar do Califa

Incognitus

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1681 em: 2015-02-28 23:24:48 »
quem é que é capitalista? eu cá não!
quem é que é libertário? eu cá não!

eheh vcs matam-me de riso, pá!

D

Capitalistas penso que somos todos, até tu. Porque a alternativa não é grande coisa.

Libertários é que há certamente muito poucos. Qualquer pessoa que defenda saúde e educação apoiadas pelo Estado já está para lá do que um libertário defende. Nós seríamos liberais, mas a palavra foi deturpada.
« Última modificação: 2015-02-28 23:48:08 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Visitante

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1682 em: 2015-02-28 23:30:23 »
quem é que é capitalista? eu cá não!
quem é que é libertário? eu cá não!

eheh vcs matam-me de riso, pá!

D

Capitalistas penso que somos todos, até tu. Porque a alternativa não é grande coisa.

Libertários é que há certamente muito poucos. Qualquer pessoa que defensa saúde e educação apoiadas pelo Estado já está para lá do que um libertário defende. Nós seríamos liberais, mas a palavra foi deturpada.

Podem ser liberais sociais. Claro que há vários graus de liberalismo social.

Zel

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1683 em: 2015-02-28 23:44:09 »
liberal social, acho que devo ser isso hehe

Zel

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1684 em: 2015-03-01 00:41:27 »
quem é que é capitalista? eu cá não!
quem é que é libertário? eu cá não!

eheh vcs matam-me de riso, pá!

D

eu sou psycho-capitalista, adoro ver pobres para me sentir superior... mas so na televisao pois ainda me pegam a sua doenca

desde que visitei o monaco que sinto q encontrei o meu ideal de vida, a minha utopia sobre a terra

vbm

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1685 em: 2015-03-01 08:15:43 »
De-facto, nunca fui ao Mónaco. Só do cinema, faço uma  ideia. Mas não me atrai por aí além. De há muito compreendo, é nuclear a companhia em que se está. Designadamente, feminina. O que implica e requer toda um pré-conseguimento. Bem entendido, tudo pode erguer-se do que há rente ao chão. Mas também, para tanto não é  requisito o Mónaco. De modo que, Mónaco ou não Mónaco, é um sofístico dilema. Isto é, o que seja, o devir, independe do Mónaco. Praticamente, apenas requer: estar vivo. E: não ser completamente idiota. Mas, mesmo um idiota, de baixo "QI", lolinho, tem algumas chances. E eu tenho-as, de certeza. Porque o meu falar de francês, tipo-Mário-Soares, é altamente intrigante, provocativo e estimulante para qualquer nativa da língua dos franceses. Portanto, aí está. Toma que já almoçaste! :)
« Última modificação: 2015-03-01 08:16:33 por vbm »

Tridion

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1686 em: 2015-03-01 14:35:31 »
Se me saísse 50 milhões € no euromilhões, provavelmente o Mónaco seria a minha nova casa.  A adaptação seria simples, porque continuaria a ser classe média...  ;D
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Incognitus

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1687 em: 2015-03-01 15:52:33 »
O capitalismo/mercados a funcionar:

* Primeiro um preço maluco, que estimula a oferta;
* De seguida, oferta maluca, em resposta;
* Resultados: preços muito mais baixos para toda a gente, oferta consistentemente mais elevada, lucros menores ou inexistentes.

É um funcionamento típico, especialmente em bens e serviços que são commodities/fungíveis.


"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Dilath Larath

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1688 em: 2015-03-01 16:40:52 »
Libertarians believe themselves controversial and cool. They’re desperate to package themselves as dangerous rebels, but in reality they are champions of conformity. Their irreverence and their opposition to “political correctness” is little more than a fashion accessory, disguising their subservience to—for all their protests against the “political elite”—the real elite.

Ayn Rand is the rebel queen of their icy kingdom, villifying empathy and solidarity. Christopher Hitchens, in typical blunt force fashion, undressed Rand and her libertarian followers, exposing their obsequiousness toward the operational standards of a selfish society: “I have always found it quaint, and rather touching, that there is a movement in the US that thinks Americans are not yet selfish enough.”

Libertarians believe they are real rebels, because they’ve politicized the protest of children who scream through tears, “You’re not the boss of me.” The rejection of all rules and regulations, and the belief that everyone should have the ability to do whatever they want, is not rebellion or dissent. It is infantile naïveté.

As much as libertarians boast of having a “political movement” gaining in popularity, “you’re not the boss of me” does not even rise to the most elementary level of politics. Aristotle translated “politics” into meaning “the things concerning the polis,” referring to the city, or in other words, the community. Confucius connected politics with ethics, and his ethics are attached to communal service with a moral system based on empathy. A political program, like that from the right, that eliminates empathy, and denies the collective, is anti-political.

Opposition to any conception of the public interest and common good, and the consistent rejection of any opportunity to organize communities in the interest of solidarity, is not only a vicious form of anti-politics, it is affirmation of America’s most dominant and harmful dogmas. In America, selfishness, like blue jeans or a black dress, never goes out of style. It is the style. The founding fathers, for all the hagiographic praise and worship they receive as ritual in America, had no significant interest in freedom beyond their own social station, regardless of the poetry they put on paper. Native Americans, women, black Americans, and anyone who did not own property could not vote, but “taxation without representation” was the rallying cry of the revolution. The founders reacted with righteous rage to an injustice to their class, but demonstrated no passion or prioritization of expanding their victory for liberty to anyone who did not look, think, or spend money like them.

Many years after the nation’s establishment as an independent republic, President Calvin Coolidge quipped, “The chief business of the American people is business.” It is easy to extrapolate from that unintentional indictment how, in a rejection of alternative conceptions of philosophy and morality, America continually reinforced Alexis De Tocqueville’s prescient 1831 observation, “As one digs deeper into the national character of Americans, one sees that they have sought the value of everything in this world only in the answer to this single question: How much money will it bring in?”

The disasters of reducing life, the governance of affairs, and the distribution of resources to such a shallow standard leaves wreckage where among the debris one can find human bodies. Studies indicate that nearly 18,000 Americans die every year because they lack comprehensive health insurance. Designing a healthcare system with the question, “How much money will it bring in?” at the center, kills instead of cures.

The denial of the collective interest and communal bond, as much as libertarians like to pose as trailblazers, is not the road less traveled, but the highway in gridlock. Competitive individualism, and the perversion of personal responsibility to mean social irresponsibility, is what allows for America to limp behind the rest of the developed world in providing for the poor and creating social services for the general population.

It also leads to the elevation of crude utility as a measurement of anything’s purpose or value. Richard Hofstadter, observed in his classic  Anti-Intellectualism in American Life, that many Americans are highly intelligent, but their intelligence is functional, not intellectual. They excel at their occupational tasks, but do not invest the intellect or imagination in abstract, critical, or philosophical inquiries and ideas. If society is reducible to the individual, and the individual is reducible to consumer capacity, the duties of democracy and the pleasures of creativity stand little chance of competing with the call of the cash register.

Wisconsin governor Scott Walker recently stepped on a landmine when he suggested that the Wisconsin university system remove from its mission statement any language having to do with public service or meaning of life. Education should only train people to work. Walker might have faced mockery and scorn for his proposal, but any college instructor can verify my experience of struggling to convince even a handful of students to consider the importance of ideas not directly related to their career choices.

Meanwhile pop culture, still having not recovered from mistaking the Oliver Stone villain Gordon Gekko and his “greed is good” philosophy as heroic, bombards Americans with reality television programs about shallow and self-destructive rich people whose mansions, jewelry, vehicles, and fashion choices are treated with a religious reverence. Their lives are in despair and disarray, but they find redemption through consumption.

Who then are the libertarians rebelling against? The most powerful sector of the society is corporate America, and it profits and benefits most from the deregulatory and anti-tax measures libertarians champion. That sector of society also happens to own the federal government. Through large campaign donations and aggressive lobbying – the very corruption that libertarians help enable by defending Citizens United and opposing campaign finance reform – they have institutionalized bribery, transforming the legislative process into an auction. Libertarians proclaim an anti-government position, but they are only opposing the last measures of protection that remain in place to prevent the government from full mutation into an aristocracy. By advocating for the removal of all social programs, libertarians are not rebelling, as much as they are reinforcing the prevailing ethos of “bootstrap” capitalism. The poor are responsible for their plight, and therefore deserve no sympathy or assistance.

When children yell “you’re not the boss of me” they believe they are launching a rebellion against the household establishment, but they are conforming to the codes of behavior visible among all children. Libertarians are attempting to practice the same political voodoo – transforming conformity into rebellion – without realizing that their cries for freedom coalesce with their childlike culture.

The philosopher Charles Taylor explains in his book, The Ethics of Authenticity, that the search for self-actualization is a noble and important enterprise in life. Authenticity is important, and people should not compromise their principles or passions to placate expectations of society. Taylor complicates the picture by adding the elemental truth of individuality and community that personal freedom is empty and meaningless without connections to “horizons of significance.” That beautiful phrase captures the essentiality of developing bonds of empathy and ties of solidarity with people outside of one’s own individual pursuits, and within a larger social context. Neighborhoods, religious institutions, political parties, advocacy organizations, charities, and social justice groups all qualify as “horizons of significance”, and the connections that arise out of those horizons inevitably producs politics of communal ethics and public responsibility, in addition to private liberty.

Encouraging and facilitating connections of love that revolutionize individual freedom into motivation for social justice, and reform politics to adhere to the truth of Cornel West’s insight that “justice is what love looks like in public” represents real rebellion in America. Defending and championing selfish indifference to collective interest and need conforms not only to the mainstream American practice of social neglect, but also to the most basic and brutish impulse of humanity’s mammalian origins. The rebel searches for higher ground. The conformist crawls through the shallow end of the swamp.

you're not the boss of me!
« Última modificação: 2015-03-01 16:45:32 por Dilath Larath »
O meu patrão quer ser Califa no lugar do Califa

Incognitus

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1689 em: 2015-03-01 16:55:34 »
Não faz sentido dizer que um libertário não valoriza a solidariedade. Valoriza-a, para quem a quiser praticar voluntariamente.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Automek

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1690 em: 2015-03-01 17:18:34 »
Se me saísse 50 milhões € no euromilhões, provavelmente o Mónaco seria a minha nova casa.  A adaptação seria simples, porque continuaria a ser classe média...  ;D
Com 50M penso que estarias mais na faixa dos que estão em risco de pobreza.  :D

D. Antunes

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1691 em: 2015-03-01 17:31:14 »
Libertarians believe themselves controversial and cool. They’re desperate to package themselves as dangerous rebels, but in reality they are champions of conformity. Their irreverence and their opposition to “political correctness” is little more than a fashion accessory, disguising their subservience to—for all their protests against the “political elite”—the real elite.

Ayn Rand is the rebel queen of their icy kingdom, villifying empathy and solidarity. Christopher Hitchens, in typical blunt force fashion, undressed Rand and her libertarian followers, exposing their obsequiousness toward the operational standards of a selfish society: “I have always found it quaint, and rather touching, that there is a movement in the US that thinks Americans are not yet selfish enough.”

Libertarians believe they are real rebels, because they’ve politicized the protest of children who scream through tears, “You’re not the boss of me.” The rejection of all rules and regulations, and the belief that everyone should have the ability to do whatever they want, is not rebellion or dissent. It is infantile naïveté.

As much as libertarians boast of having a “political movement” gaining in popularity, “you’re not the boss of me” does not even rise to the most elementary level of politics. Aristotle translated “politics” into meaning “the things concerning the polis,” referring to the city, or in other words, the community. Confucius connected politics with ethics, and his ethics are attached to communal service with a moral system based on empathy. A political program, like that from the right, that eliminates empathy, and denies the collective, is anti-political.

Opposition to any conception of the public interest and common good, and the consistent rejection of any opportunity to organize communities in the interest of solidarity, is not only a vicious form of anti-politics, it is affirmation of America’s most dominant and harmful dogmas. In America, selfishness, like blue jeans or a black dress, never goes out of style. It is the style. The founding fathers, for all the hagiographic praise and worship they receive as ritual in America, had no significant interest in freedom beyond their own social station, regardless of the poetry they put on paper. Native Americans, women, black Americans, and anyone who did not own property could not vote, but “taxation without representation” was the rallying cry of the revolution. The founders reacted with righteous rage to an injustice to their class, but demonstrated no passion or prioritization of expanding their victory for liberty to anyone who did not look, think, or spend money like them.

Many years after the nation’s establishment as an independent republic, President Calvin Coolidge quipped, “The chief business of the American people is business.” It is easy to extrapolate from that unintentional indictment how, in a rejection of alternative conceptions of philosophy and morality, America continually reinforced Alexis De Tocqueville’s prescient 1831 observation, “As one digs deeper into the national character of Americans, one sees that they have sought the value of everything in this world only in the answer to this single question: How much money will it bring in?”

The disasters of reducing life, the governance of affairs, and the distribution of resources to such a shallow standard leaves wreckage where among the debris one can find human bodies. Studies indicate that nearly 18,000 Americans die every year because they lack comprehensive health insurance. Designing a healthcare system with the question, “How much money will it bring in?” at the center, kills instead of cures.

The denial of the collective interest and communal bond, as much as libertarians like to pose as trailblazers, is not the road less traveled, but the highway in gridlock. Competitive individualism, and the perversion of personal responsibility to mean social irresponsibility, is what allows for America to limp behind the rest of the developed world in providing for the poor and creating social services for the general population.

It also leads to the elevation of crude utility as a measurement of anything’s purpose or value. Richard Hofstadter, observed in his classic  Anti-Intellectualism in American Life, that many Americans are highly intelligent, but their intelligence is functional, not intellectual. They excel at their occupational tasks, but do not invest the intellect or imagination in abstract, critical, or philosophical inquiries and ideas. If society is reducible to the individual, and the individual is reducible to consumer capacity, the duties of democracy and the pleasures of creativity stand little chance of competing with the call of the cash register.

Wisconsin governor Scott Walker recently stepped on a landmine when he suggested that the Wisconsin university system remove from its mission statement any language having to do with public service or meaning of life. Education should only train people to work. Walker might have faced mockery and scorn for his proposal, but any college instructor can verify my experience of struggling to convince even a handful of students to consider the importance of ideas not directly related to their career choices.

Meanwhile pop culture, still having not recovered from mistaking the Oliver Stone villain Gordon Gekko and his “greed is good” philosophy as heroic, bombards Americans with reality television programs about shallow and self-destructive rich people whose mansions, jewelry, vehicles, and fashion choices are treated with a religious reverence. Their lives are in despair and disarray, but they find redemption through consumption.

Who then are the libertarians rebelling against? The most powerful sector of the society is corporate America, and it profits and benefits most from the deregulatory and anti-tax measures libertarians champion. That sector of society also happens to own the federal government. Through large campaign donations and aggressive lobbying – the very corruption that libertarians help enable by defending Citizens United and opposing campaign finance reform – they have institutionalized bribery, transforming the legislative process into an auction. Libertarians proclaim an anti-government position, but they are only opposing the last measures of protection that remain in place to prevent the government from full mutation into an aristocracy. By advocating for the removal of all social programs, libertarians are not rebelling, as much as they are reinforcing the prevailing ethos of “bootstrap” capitalism. The poor are responsible for their plight, and therefore deserve no sympathy or assistance.

When children yell “you’re not the boss of me” they believe they are launching a rebellion against the household establishment, but they are conforming to the codes of behavior visible among all children. Libertarians are attempting to practice the same political voodoo – transforming conformity into rebellion – without realizing that their cries for freedom coalesce with their childlike culture.

The philosopher Charles Taylor explains in his book, The Ethics of Authenticity, that the search for self-actualization is a noble and important enterprise in life. Authenticity is important, and people should not compromise their principles or passions to placate expectations of society. Taylor complicates the picture by adding the elemental truth of individuality and community that personal freedom is empty and meaningless without connections to “horizons of significance.” That beautiful phrase captures the essentiality of developing bonds of empathy and ties of solidarity with people outside of one’s own individual pursuits, and within a larger social context. Neighborhoods, religious institutions, political parties, advocacy organizations, charities, and social justice groups all qualify as “horizons of significance”, and the connections that arise out of those horizons inevitably producs politics of communal ethics and public responsibility, in addition to private liberty.

Encouraging and facilitating connections of love that revolutionize individual freedom into motivation for social justice, and reform politics to adhere to the truth of Cornel West’s insight that “justice is what love looks like in public” represents real rebellion in America. Defending and championing selfish indifference to collective interest and need conforms not only to the mainstream American practice of social neglect, but also to the most basic and brutish impulse of humanity’s mammalian origins. The rebel searches for higher ground. The conformist crawls through the shallow end of the swamp.

you're not the boss of me!


Partindo do princípio que concordas com este texto e que consideras importante medidas que sejam úteis para a sociedade, então deverias apoiar apenas as medidas sociais que fossem do interesse dessa mesma sociedade. E opores-te a medidas sociais que não contribuem para a melhoria futura da sociedade, pagas através de impostos sobre quem produz (na prática roubo, pois nem estão justificadas com a melhoria da sociedade).
“Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.”
“In the short run the market is a voting machine. In the long run, it’s a weighting machine."
Warren Buffett

“O bom senso é a coisa do mundo mais bem distribuída: todos pensamos tê-lo em tal medida que até os mais difíceis de contentar nas outras coisas não costumam desejar mais bom senso do que aquele que têm."
René Descartes

Incognitus

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1692 em: 2015-03-01 18:15:12 »
Citar
The most powerful sector of the society is corporate America

Penso que muita gente vê o sector empresarial não como um bloco, mas como um magote de empresas diferentes, muitas delas em concorrência entre si. Eventualmente, pensar que são um bloco já diz alguma coisa sobre quem o afirma. O governo é um bloco (não há vários, há só um -- a menos que estejamos a falar de poder local -- embora ao nível local também só exista um), as empresas não o são.
« Última modificação: 2015-03-01 18:15:32 por Incognitus »
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Automek

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Castelbranco

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1694 em: 2015-03-02 10:28:28 »
Esta historia da Grecia vai dar muito que falar, eu acho que vai ser por aqui juntamente com as bolhas em andamento que se verificam em várias frentes incluindo das obrigações, que o mundo financeiro vai desabar....

Thunder

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1695 em: 2015-03-02 10:58:28 »
Penso que não há que negar que a grande maioria das pessoas é altamente egoísta.

As pessoas egoístas gostam de pensar que todas as pessoas são assim, para se sentirem melhor. Isto com a maior parte dos egoístas.
Há uma pequena parte, que têm a certeza, mas a certeza absoluta, que todas as pessoas são assim. isso já cai mais para o lado da psicopatia.

Citação de: Galbraith
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness

Citação de: Lark
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for being a psycho

mais uma do good old K

Citação de: John Maynard Keynes
Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.

H

Lark isto de avaliar as pessoas é das coisas mais subjectivas que há.
Acho que estás a exagerar um bom bocado já que eu não disse que todas as pessoas são assim.
Há pessoas fabulosas, de uma bondade incrível, que praticamente dedicam as suas vidas aos outros. Há amigos e familiares que são pessoas excelentes, com as quais pode-se contar nas situações mais complicadas.
Mas infelizmente não são tantas quantas gostaria.
Eu quando disse que a maioria são egoístas não é porque apetece-me ou sabe-me bem. Infelizmente é o que vou vendo na realidade do dia-a-dia em vários tipos de interacção entre pessoas.
Na empresa em que trabalhei éramos entre 15 a 20 pessoas. Com cargos parecidos. Se conseguisses aproveitar 5 pessoas .... Mentiras, deixar o trabalho pior pros colegas, tentar lixar os outros em relação a folgas, férias, trabalhos em feriados e fds.
Entre amigos é tudo muito bonito, nas festas, na altura dos copos.... Mas quando a coisa aperta e as pessoas precisam de apoio ... a maioria desaparece.
Em família quando é pra rapar o dinheiro aos velhos, são festas, rapapés ... quando já choveu a massa, os velhos parecem que têm lepra. Vi isso na minha família (com tristeza) e em outras famílias que vou tendo conhecimento mais íntimo. Irmãos as chapadas uns com os outros, primos zangados, sobrinhos e tios chateados.
As pessoas juntam-se numa roda de conhecidos ou em conversas de café e parece aqueles debates de TV. Tudo a falar um por cima dos outros, querem ter o protagonismo. A suas histórias são o máximo querem 1 hora pra conta-las. Quando são os outros despacha-te em um minuto que quero ser eu a falar de novo.
Quando as pessoas estão em "ajuntamentos" escondidas pela anonimidade, podes ver bem o que acontece.
E poderia continuar por aqui fora.

Mas como digo isto é altamente subjectivo, se calhar sou eu que sou um bocado exagerado e crítico em excesso.

Em relação as frases que colocaste podes substituir "conservative" e "capitalism" por outras e a frase é valida na mesma. És inteligente e sabes bem disso. A história já o mostrou. O que não invalida que realmente haja casos em que as frases que colocaste são bem aplicadas. Agora não são os únicos casos em que se aplicam.
« Última modificação: 2015-03-02 11:07:42 por Thunder »
Nullius in Verba
Divide et Impera
Não há almoços grátis
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
Bulls make money, bears make money.... pigs get slaughtered

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1696 em: 2015-03-02 11:26:22 »
Outra coisa importante sobre essas frases é que nem o wickedest of men, nem o psycho, nem a selfishness desaparecem quando muda o sistema. Eles continuam lá a actuar, apenas possuem ferramentas diferentes para o fazer.

E isso é muito importante, porque noutro sistema estão menos condicionados pela voluntariedade e reciprocidade que os mercados exigem. Facilmente se compreende que na ausência disso, os resultados tenderão a ser muito piores.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Thunder

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1697 em: 2015-03-02 11:31:13 »
Outra coisa importante sobre essas frases é que nem o wickedest of men, nem o psycho, nem a selfishness desaparecem quando muda o sistema. Eles continuam lá a actuar, apenas possuem ferramentas diferentes para o fazer.

E isso é muito importante, porque noutro sistema estão menos condicionados pela voluntariedade e reciprocidade que os mercados exigem. Facilmente se compreende que na ausência disso, os resultados tenderão a ser muito piores.

Sempre que há elites com poder a mais tudo isso pode aplicar-se (psico, etc...). Infelizmente a história já o mostrou com todo o tipo de regime políticos e económicos.
« Última modificação: 2015-03-02 11:35:18 por Thunder »
Nullius in Verba
Divide et Impera
Não há almoços grátis
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
Bulls make money, bears make money.... pigs get slaughtered

Incognitus

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1698 em: 2015-03-02 11:41:56 »
Não precisam de ser elites, os problemas colocam-se a muitos níveis. Os malandros que actuam no capitalismo actuam em qualquer sistema.

Só que no capitalismo necessitam que as pessoas lhes comprem voluntariamente, e correm o risco de perder clientes ou criar uma má reputação que os persegue. Noutros sistemas onde a reciprocidade e voluntariedade possam ser quebradas, isso não é necessariamente verdade o que leva a resultados piores.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

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Re:Investir na Grécia
« Responder #1699 em: 2015-03-02 11:51:22 »
Estes qualquer dia estão com eleições antecipadas

Dentro do Syriza, há quem queira novas eleições