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Autor Tópico: Krugman et al  (Lida 605855 vezes)

Zel

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2220 em: 2015-08-02 07:47:49 »
se um republicano ganhar as eleicoes o krugman vai logo acusa-lo ao menor sinal de recessao, muito comico que agora escreva aquilo sobre os outros

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2221 em: 2015-08-02 11:29:52 »
Dois problemas com o texto:

1) Como o artigo diz, o pessoal só se lembra de ser Keynesiano nestas alturas. E deixa de o ser quando sê-lo implicaria defender superávits orçamentais. Isso é insustentável.

2) O artigo apresenta o Japão como não tendo sido Keynesiano:

Citar
"If instead governments of rich nations do nothing more, hoping their economies heal on their own, they’ll all risk getting stuck in the same rut that’s trapped Japan for most of the years since its postwar economic miracle abruptly ended in 1990."


Isso não corresponde à realidade:

é, são textos muito pobrezinhos. não se aprende nada.
quanto ao ponto, lá tenho eu que repetir que  foi um governo democrta do clinton que deixou  o único superavit da história recente dos US.
quanto ao segundo, nem sequer tenho pachorra. o krugman já explicois muito bem o que se passou no japão. uma políticia keynesiana inconsequente que nunca chegou a ser implementada convictamente excepto agora com o kuroda. e agora vemos as coisas mexer.

aumento da massa monetária acompanhado de medidas fiscais expansionárias.

L

PS: evitem ser tão evidentemente dupond et dupont.
vem um e diz A. vem logo o outro e diz logo 'eu diria mesmo mais: 'A'.
dêem um intervalinho para não ser tão evidente.

como disse vou passar a responder menos e menos a estes comentários.
são tribalistas. a vossa tribo impele-os a tomar atitudes persistentes: anti-keynes, infliacionista, anti-climate change etc.
como já desisti de argumentar com o tribalismo estas minha intervenções a corrigir as refutações vão ser cada vez menos. não vale a pena.
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Zel

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2222 em: 2015-08-02 13:26:07 »
ohh galinha, como deverias saber o krugman ja fez o que critica no artigo  :D

Incognitus

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2223 em: 2015-08-02 17:08:42 »
Dois problemas com o texto:

1) Como o artigo diz, o pessoal só se lembra de ser Keynesiano nestas alturas. E deixa de o ser quando sê-lo implicaria defender superávits orçamentais. Isso é insustentável.

2) O artigo apresenta o Japão como não tendo sido Keynesiano:

Citar
"If instead governments of rich nations do nothing more, hoping their economies heal on their own, they’ll all risk getting stuck in the same rut that’s trapped Japan for most of the years since its postwar economic miracle abruptly ended in 1990."


Isso não corresponde à realidade:

é, são textos muito pobrezinhos. não se aprende nada.
quanto ao ponto, lá tenho eu que repetir que  foi um governo democrta do clinton que deixou  o único superavit da história recente dos US.
quanto ao segundo, nem sequer tenho pachorra. o krugman já explicois muito bem o que se passou no japão. uma políticia keynesiana inconsequente que nunca chegou a ser implementada convictamente excepto agora com o kuroda. e agora vemos as coisas mexer.

aumento da massa monetária acompanhado de medidas fiscais expansionárias.

L

PS: evitem ser tão evidentemente dupond et dupont.
vem um e diz A. vem logo o outro e diz logo 'eu diria mesmo mais: 'A'.
dêem um intervalinho para não ser tão evidente.

como disse vou passar a responder menos e menos a estes comentários.
são tribalistas. a vossa tribo impele-os a tomar atitudes persistentes: anti-keynes, infliacionista, anti-climate change etc.
como já desisti de argumentar com o tribalismo estas minha intervenções a corrigir as refutações vão ser cada vez menos. não vale a pena.

1) Lark, até TU concordaste que a análise em questão (que NÃO tinha nada a ver com superávits) estava falha devido a não comparar pontos de partida e chegada e %s de populações muito diferentes. Mas por uma razão impossível de discernir, tu esqueces-te até daquilo em que mudaste de opinião, mesmo em matéria factual (tentas fazer o mesmo em tudo, incluindo coisas como o yuan, CDS, etc, perfeitamente estabelecidas).

2) Sobre o Japão não ter sido "suficientemente Keynesiano":
* Os déficits apresentados no gráfico são extremamente profundos;
* A dívida acumulada devido a esses déficits é extraordinária;
* E por fim, o Japão também fez QE nesse período -- claro, aqui podemos SEMPRE discutir se foi o suficiente (bem como nos dois pontos anteriores, mas déficits ou dívida muito maiores do que os praticados seriam verdadeiramente extraordinários, já que os efectivamente praticados já são fantásticos quando comparados a países desenvolvidos).

Lark, estes debates batem sempre numa coisa muito óbvia: Tu até os factos mais básicos (como aconteceu no yuan, CDS e a discussão do Clinton/Reagan) tens dificuldade em aceritar, pelo que qualquer coisa minimamente mais complexa se torna impossível de debater contigo. E claro, além disso queres acreditar com fervor religioso em tudo o que o Krugman diz (mesmo que obviamente distorcido, como foi o caso do Reagan/Clinton em que no fundo até concordaste) mesmo que tenhas dados à frente (como neste caso) que te mostram bastante fortemente que existe ali um problema qualquer em dizer-se que o Japão não foi Keynesiano.

"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Incognitus

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2224 em: 2015-08-02 17:16:18 »
Dois problemas com o texto:

1) Como o artigo diz, o pessoal só se lembra de ser Keynesiano nestas alturas. E deixa de o ser quando sê-lo implicaria defender superávits orçamentais. Isso é insustentável.

2) O artigo apresenta o Japão como não tendo sido Keynesiano:

Citar
"If instead governments of rich nations do nothing more, hoping their economies heal on their own, they’ll all risk getting stuck in the same rut that’s trapped Japan for most of the years since its postwar economic miracle abruptly ended in 1990."


Isso não corresponde à realidade:

é, são textos muito pobrezinhos. não se aprende nada.
quanto ao ponto, lá tenho eu que repetir que  foi um governo democrta do clinton que deixou  o único superavit da história recente dos US.
quanto ao segundo, nem sequer tenho pachorra. o krugman já explicois muito bem o que se passou no japão. uma políticia keynesiana inconsequente que nunca chegou a ser implementada convictamente excepto agora com o kuroda. e agora vemos as coisas mexer.

aumento da massa monetária acompanhado de medidas fiscais expansionárias.

L

PS: evitem ser tão evidentemente dupond et dupont.
vem um e diz A. vem logo o outro e diz logo 'eu diria mesmo mais: 'A'.
dêem um intervalinho para não ser tão evidente.

como disse vou passar a responder menos e menos a estes comentários.
são tribalistas. a vossa tribo impele-os a tomar atitudes persistentes: anti-keynes, infliacionista, anti-climate change etc.
como já desisti de argumentar com o tribalismo estas minha intervenções a corrigir as refutações vão ser cada vez menos. não vale a pena.

Um pormenor off-topic aqui. Ninguém, mas absolutamente ninguém, é contra "CLIMATE CHANGE". Isto porque "climate change" é a REGRA no planeta terra desde que este existe.

Portanto tens que usar outra palavra qualquer (embora seja prática tomarem conta de todo o tipo de palavras de forma absurda, como é o caso). Diz antes "man made climate change" para pelo menos ficares mais próximo da realidade. E aí ainda não chega, porque os detractores não dizem necessariamente que o homem não tem impacto sobre o clima. Porque terá, com toda a sua actividade. A questão coloca-se mais ao nível de se o homem terá impacto SUFICIENTE no clima, pois este está sempre a mudar de forma agressiva e cíclica, e existe uma dúvida legitima sobre se a actividade humana é "potente" o suficiente para quebrar esse ciclo.

Eu não digo que seja forte o suficiente ou não, mas acho que teres grandes certezas sobre isso é fortemente absurdo. Nota que as previsões humanas nesse capítulo são válidas até cerca de 10-15 dias de distância, e tu estás a acreditar que existe quem consiga prever esse sistema caótico a centenas de anos de distância. Não é certo que exista. Os efeitos de estufa do CO2 são conhecidos, mas os ciclos a longo prazo aparentemente conseguem quebrar esses efeitos (ou já de há muito que se teria um efeito de estufa "runaway"). E os dados de longo prazo até dizem que as temperaturas estão centenas de anos adiantadas face à subida do CO2, pelo que não existe necessariamente uma causa-efeito no sentido que poderás pensar, embora seja certo (ou quase) que o CO2 pode alimentar o ciclo em feedback. A questão é, quando o ciclo muda (por uma força que não está determinada), o CO2 também pode alimentar o ciclo negativo em feedback.
« Última modificação: 2015-08-02 17:17:40 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Reg

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2225 em: 2015-08-02 18:11:31 »
O  banco do japao ja compra accoes diretamente
isto ja e  mais radical do que teoria Keynesiana


Democracia Socialista Democrata. igualdade de quem berra mais O que é meu é meu o que é teu é nosso

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2226 em: 2015-08-02 18:23:38 »
O  banco do japao ja compra accoes diretamente
isto ja e  mais radical do que teoria Keynesiana

não é. é a mesma coisa. seja o que for para aumentar a procura.
mas a política monetária já deu o que tinha a dar.
keynesianismo não é QE. é muito mais política fiscal que monetária. menos impostos sobre o trabalho, maiores compensações, investimento público etc.
o QE só faz alguma coisa até determinado ponto. a partir daí perde tracção.
depois só com política fiscal que meta mais pessoas a trabalhar e mais dinheiro no bolso dos trabalhadores. e que incentivize a procura e o consumo.

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Reg

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2227 em: 2015-08-02 18:33:38 »
O  banco do japao ja compra accoes diretamente
isto ja e  mais radical do que teoria Keynesiana

não é. é a mesma coisa. seja o que for para aumentar a procura.
mas a política monetária já deu o que tinha a dar.
keynesianismo não é QE. é muito mais política fiscal que monetária. menos impostos sobre o trabalho, maiores compensações, investimento público etc.
o QE só faz alguma coisa até determinado ponto. a partir daí perde tracção.
depois só com política fiscal que meta mais pessoas a trabalhar e mais dinheiro no bolso dos trabalhadores. e que incentivize a procura e o consumo.

L

isto dos bancos comprarem diretamente empresas na bolsa ou darem dinheiro a XPTO ha anos atras era escandalo
hoje dia dizem que e muito leve.

a malta ja nem deve saber o que custou criar reservas nos paises depois da segunda guerra.

Democracia Socialista Democrata. igualdade de quem berra mais O que é meu é meu o que é teu é nosso

Incognitus

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2228 em: 2015-08-02 18:38:26 »
O  banco do japao ja compra accoes diretamente
isto ja e  mais radical do que teoria Keynesiana

não é. é a mesma coisa. seja o que for para aumentar a procura.
mas a política monetária já deu o que tinha a dar.
keynesianismo não é QE. é muito mais política fiscal que monetária. menos impostos sobre o trabalho, maiores compensações, investimento público etc.
o QE só faz alguma coisa até determinado ponto. a partir daí perde tracção.
depois só com política fiscal que meta mais pessoas a trabalhar e mais dinheiro no bolso dos trabalhadores. e que incentivize a procura e o consumo.

L

Dir-se-ia que não viste os gráficos que coloquei na página anterior. Política fiscal não tem faltado, como mostram os déficits profundos e o acumular de dívida.
« Última modificação: 2015-08-02 18:41:08 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Reg

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2229 em: 2015-08-02 18:39:58 »
O  banco do japao ja compra accoes diretamente
isto ja e  mais radical do que teoria Keynesiana


não é. é a mesma coisa. seja o que for para aumentar a procura.
mas a política monetária já deu o que tinha a dar.
keynesianismo não é QE. é muito mais política fiscal que monetária. menos impostos sobre o trabalho, maiores compensações, investimento público etc.
o QE só faz alguma coisa até determinado ponto. a partir daí perde tracção.
depois só com política fiscal que meta mais pessoas a trabalhar e mais dinheiro no bolso dos trabalhadores. e que incentivize a procura e o consumo.

L


Dir-se-ia que não viste o segundo gráfico que coloquei na página anterior. Política fiscal não tem faltado, como mostram os déficits profundos e o acumular de dívida.


quando juros subirem o japao tem problema dos impostos nao pagarem a divida
moeda fraca = juros altos

sem moeda fraca o Japão estava caminho de défice comercial recorde
http://www.publico.pt/economia/noticia/japao-a-caminho-de-defice-comercial-recorde-1623749

japao esta entre espada e parede


isto deve ser  o pior esta para vir
« Última modificação: 2015-08-02 19:37:33 por Reg »
Democracia Socialista Democrata. igualdade de quem berra mais O que é meu é meu o que é teu é nosso

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2230 em: 2015-08-03 19:50:55 »
Cap and Trade and Polarization

One of the most obvious facts about the U.S. political scene is also a fact most pundits refuse to acknowledge: the extreme polarization we now experience, the complete disappearance of any kind of political center, is not a two-sided phenomenon. Democrats haven’t moved drastically to the left — if anything they inched right for a couple of decades, and are only now shuffling slightly back toward a more robust liberalism. But Republicans have barreled off to the right.

This is, as I said, obvious — except that for those whose whole professional self-image involves standing between the supposed extremes, it’s too painful to acknowledge. So it’s worth pointing out specific policy areas where we can trace the positions of the parties explicitly.

One prime example is, of course, health reform: yes, Obamacare is identical in all important respects to Romneycare, which in turn followed a blueprint originally propounded at the Heritage Foundation.

Environmental policy may, however, be an even better case. Cap and trade began as a Republican idea — a corrective to command-and-control regulation. There was, in fact, a time when many Democrats disliked the idea of using market mechanisms to limit pollution, so this was a case of Republicans pushing policy in the direction of good economics. Bush the elder introduced cap and trade to control acid rain; John McCain even sponsored a climate change bill that relied on cap and trade.

But now Republican candidates for president are scrambling to declare themselves against the Obama administration’s proposals; Mitch McConnell is urging states to defy the feds and refuse to implement the regulations.

Leave on one side the sheer evilness of sabotaging efforts to avert environmental catastrophe in pursuit of political gain. Just note where the divide comes from.

krugman
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2231 em: 2015-08-04 19:16:41 »
Corbyn and the Cringe Caucus

I haven’t been closely following developments in UK politics since the election, but people have been asking me to comment on the emergence of Jeremy Corbyn as a serious contender for Labour leadership. And I do have a few thoughts.

First, it’s really important to understand that the austerity policies of the current government are not, as much of the British press portrays them, the only responsible answer to a fiscal crisis. There is no fiscal crisis, except in the imagination of Britain’s Very Serious People; the policies had large costs; the economic upturn when the UK fiscal tightening was put on hold does not justify the previous costs. More than that, the whole austerian ideology is based on fantasy economics, while it’s actually the anti-austerians who are basing their views on the best evidence from modern macroeconomic theory and evidence.

Nonetheless, all the contenders for Labour leadership other than Mr. Corbyn have chosen to accept the austerian ideology in full, including accepting false claims that Labour was fiscally irresponsible and that this irresponsibility caused the crisis. As Simon Wren-Lewis says, when Labour supporters reject this move, they aren’t “moving left”, they’re refusing to follow a party elite that has decided to move sharply to the right.

What’s been going on within Labour reminds me of what went on within the Democratic Party under Reagan and again for a while under Bush: many leading figures in the party fell into what Josh Marshall used to call the “cringe”, basically accepting the right’s worldview but trying to win office by being a bit milder. There was a Stamaty cartoon during the Reagan years that, as I remember it, showed Democrats laying out their platform: big military spending, tax cuts for the rich, benefit cuts for the poor. “But how does that make you different from Republicans?” “Compassion — we care about the victims of our policies.”

I don’t fully understand the apparent moral collapse of New Labour after an election that was not, if you look at the numbers, actually an overwhelming public endorsement of the Tories. But should we really be surprised if many Labour supporters still believe in what their party used to stand for, and are unwilling to support the Cringe Caucus in its flight to the right?

krugman
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2232 em: 2015-08-05 01:40:55 »
Jeremy Corbyn’s supporters aren’t mad – they’re fleeing a bankrupt New Labour

How have the Labour left, from arguably its lowest ebb in the party’s history, apparently ended up on the brink of taking the leadership on a wave of support? If you listen to many self-described “centre-left” voices, it’s because the Labour party has gone quite, quite mad. Cod psychology now abounds to describe the rise of Corbynism: narcissism, people wanting to show off how right-on they are on Facebook, mass delusion, an emotional spasm, and so on. Corbyn supporters are having a temper tantrum against the electorate, so this patronising narrative goes, they think voters have “false consciousness” on a grand scale. Some sort of mass psychological disorder has gripped one of the great parties of the left in the western world, and the only real debate is how it must be cured or eradicated. And the tragedy is this: the great “centre-left” condescenders are able to identify any factor for Corbyn’s spectacular rise other than the culprit: their own political cause, or rather its implosion.

Some of these commentators huddle together on social media, competing over how snarky and belittling they can be towards those oh-so-childish/unhinged/ridiculous (delete as applicable) Corbynites, unable to understand that rare thing, the birth of a genuinely grassroots political movement. And that’s the problem: this snarkiness is all some seem to have left. Much of the self-described “centre-left” – I’d say Blairism, but some embrace the label more than others – now lack a clear vision, or a set of policies, or even a coherent distinct set of values. They increasingly define themselves against what they regard as a deluded, childish left. They have created a vacuum and it has now been filled by the Corbyn left.

Their plight is quite straightforward. The battered remnants of the left in the 1990s – cowed by the global onward march of free-marketeers – often critiqued New Labour as being indistinguishable from Toryism. “Tory Blair” and all that. They were wrong, despite the terrible failures and even disasters of New Labour, from the Iraq war to deregulation of the City. New Labour delivered large-scale public investment, in contrast to the underinvestment that characterised Thatcherism; that would mean not only more money for health and education, but also transformative projects like SureStart; the public sector would be expanded; the state would set a floor in workers’ paypackets, in the form of the minimum wage; the gap between low pay and the reality of life would be subsidised through tax credits; child poverty would be confronted; LGBT people would be emancipated from legal harassment and discrimination. New Labour may have accepted many of the underlying assumptions of Thatcherism, but it clearly had a vision that was distinct from that of the Tories.

What is left for the New Labourites to call for that is distinctive? As things stand, very little.
But then the struggle of LGBT people compelled even the Tory leadership to accept their equality before the law. George Osborne may have legislated to make the working poor poorer, but his pledge of a £9 minimum wage by 2020 outbid Ed Miliband’s paltry offer by a pound; the Labour leadership supported a scaling back of tax credits and a benefit cap that will achieve nothing but an increase in child poverty; and austerity has been embraced, and Labour’s past spending record renounced.

What is left for the New Labourites to call for that is distinctive? As things stand, very little. If you are a budding New Labourite, there are plenty of prominent media commentators to look to for inspiration. But while you may find an abundance of negativity, sneer, and pseudo-Freudian psychoanalysis, you’ll struggle to find any coherent vision. The thoughtful Blairite blogger Stephen Bush was asked on Twitter: “Have we reached a point where the purposes for which the Labour party was created have largely been achieved?” His response – and not to damn him, because he implicitly challenges New Labourites to come up with a reason to exist – summed up why his fellow travellers have rendered themselves politically superfluous: “Arguably.” We may have experienced the longest period of falling real pay since the 19th century, hundreds of thousands of the citizens of one of the world’s richest economies driven to food banks, a housing crisis that increasingly consumes the ambitions of the next generation, growing insecurity marking the work lives of middle-income and low-income Britons alike. But no, the very founding basis of Labour is “arguably” redundant, according to this prominent Blairite writer.

Why are young people rallying behind Jeremy Corbyn?
And so here is the irony. The radical left has often been critiqued – including by me – for offering little but slogans, normally about stopping something bad like cuts or privatisation. And yet Corbyn’s campaign has been unique in the Labour leadership campaign in actually offering coherent policies and a fleshed-out economic strategy: a radical housing programme; tax justice; democratic public ownership of utilities and services; a public investment bank to transform the economy; quantitative easing to invest in desperately needed infrastructure; a £10 minimum wage; a National Education Service; a costed abolition of tuition fees; women’s rights; and so on. His campaign is making astounding headway – against the odds – because it offers a coherent, inspiring and, crucially, a hopeful vision. His rivals offer little of any substance. What’s left for them?

Social democracy across Europe has accepted the underlying principles of austerity and it is crumbling in multiple directions: towards civic nationalism, like the SNP; anti-immigration parties, like Ukip, the National Front in France and the True Finns in Finland; and leftwing populism, like Podemos in Spain and Syriza in Greece. Unlike, say, Spain, France and Greece, Britain has no tradition of a mass political force to the left of the main social-democratic party, so it is not surprising our anti-austerity left movement is emerging within Labour itself. Yes, profound societal changes are also at work here but that “social democracy” or the “centre-left” or whatever you want to call it has lost its purpose and is disintegrating in favour of other political forces seems pretty indisputable.

If those in the self-described “centre-left” offered a coherent, inspiring vision, the Corbyn phenomenon would never have happened. They have failed to develop one. If they want to regain momentum within their own party – let alone win over the country – they should sideline the voices of negativity and learn how to inspire people. And however much they resort to cod psychology or sneering about the Corbyn phenomenon, the truth remains: they made it possible.

guardian
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2233 em: 2015-08-05 01:50:08 »
Citar
estes movimentos tendem a partir da américa e a chegar à europa com um pequeno atraso. Clinton: 1993 - 2001 Blair: 1997 - 2007.
espero que se despachem desta vez porque já cheguei à mesma conclusão; é uma perda de tempo debater com a direita.

isto tem implicações sérias: mesmo extremada a direita ainda representa uma boa fatia do eleitorado. ignorá-la totalmente pode ser complicado.
mas não foi mais do que o roosevelt fez e foi eleito 4 vezes de seguida (por causa dele a constituição americana foi alterada).

por cá o falhanço do PS vai ser tão grande nas próximas eleições que nem sei se o próprio partido se aguenta.
o pasok desfez-se. volatilizou-se. O PS francês e o PSOE espanhol vão pelo mesmo caminho. E o nosso PSsezinho acho que também tem os dias contados.
irónico; estão a correr para ganhar as próximas eleições e nem se apercebem que se estão a volatilizar enquanto partido. Vai ser um acordar violento.

é o fim de um ciclo. o ciclo social-democrata que veio desde o princípio do século passado.
o futuro.... dá-me ideia que vai ser interessante.

L
« Última modificação: 2015-08-05 01:51:57 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2234 em: 2015-08-05 04:34:04 »
Obama will echo Kennedy’s American University nuclear speech from 1963
 
On Wednesday, President Obama will urge Americans — and Congress — to support an agreement that would limit Iran’s nuclear weapons program despite an atmosphere of mistrust.

An eloquent young president, elected with only brief experience in the Senate, is facing a nuclear weapons threat abroad and a chorus of criticism at home. So he chooses to make the short trip to American University to give a speech urging Americans to take a chance for peace and explore a weapons agreement with a country no one trusts.

In it, he calls for a “practical, more attainable peace” that is “the necessary rational end of rational men.”

The president was John F. Kennedy, the year was 1963, and his purpose was to reach a nuclear test-ban treaty with the Soviet Union just eight months after the Cuban missile crisis.

On Wednesday, there will be echoes of that Kennedy moment when President Obama goes to American University to deliver a similar message, urging Americans — and Congress — to support an agreement that would limit Iran’s nuclear weapons program despite an atmosphere of mistrust.

A White House official said Obama would call the vote on the deal “the most consequential foreign policy debate since the decision to go to war in Iraq.” The president will link the two, asserting that “the same people who supported war in Iraq are opposing diplomacy with Iran and that it would be an historic mistake to squander this opportunity.”

“What’s appropriate about that comparison is President Kennedy, more than 50 years ago, entered into a diplomatic agreement with an adversary of the United States that did succeed in advancing the national security interests of the United States,” White House press secretary Josh Earnest said Tuesday.

Obama’s task may be even more difficult than Kennedy’s. On Tuesday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did a webcast for more than 10,000 Jewish Americans in which he said that “this is the time to oppose this dangerous deal.” And Congress is likely to vote against the Iran deal. House GOP leaders said Tuesday that they would vote in September for a formal resolution of disapproval introduced by House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Edward R. Royce (R-Calif.).

But Obama hopes that he can protect the Iran agreement by using his veto power and that opponents will not be able to summon enough support to override it. The administration got a big boost Tuesday when three influential and previously undecided Senate Democrats — Barbara Boxer (Calif.), Timothy M. Kaine (Va.) and Bill Nelson (Fla.) — endorsed the agreement.

The president is still working to persuade other undecided Democrats, most notably Sen. Charles E. Schumer (N.Y.).

Boxer, after meeting with senior diplomats from Britain, France and Germany, endorsed the deal, saying that she was “more convinced than ever that a rejection of the Iran nuclear agreement would be a victory for Iranian hard-liners and would accelerate their ability to obtain a nuclear weapon.”

Kaine said the talks with Iran had “shown that patient diplomacy can achieve what isolation and hostility cannot.” Acknowledging compliance risks and the lack of broader change in Iran, Kaine said on the Senate floor that “this deal does not solve all outstanding issues with an adversarial regime. In that sense, it is similar to the nuclear test-ban treaty that President Kennedy negotiated with the Soviet Union in the midst of the Cold War.”

Being compared to Kennedy is rarely a bad thing for Democrats in politics these days. And Obama had a “special affinity” for the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, said presidential historian Jeff Shesol, a former speechwriter for President Bill Clinton and a partner at West Wing Writers.

In the June 1963 American University commencement address, Kennedy was at the peak of his rhetorical power. Much as Obama has recently portrayed war as the alternative to the negotiated deal with Iran, Kennedy warned that “too many of us think it [peace] is impossible. Too many think it is unreal. But that is a dangerous, defeatist belief. It leads to the conclusion that war is inevitable.”

Peace, Kennedy said, “does not require that each man love his neighbor. It requires only that they live together with mutual tolerance, submitting their disputes to a just and peaceful settlement.” He added: “Let us not be blind to our differences, but let us also direct attention to our common interests.”

“Kennedy was intensely concerned with finding a way with the Soviet Union over nuclear arms,” said presidential historian Robert Dallek. “The missile crisis frightened him and frightened [Soviet leader Nikita] Khrushchev because they came within hailing distance of nuclear war.”

At the same time, Shesol said, “no one could credibly accuse John Kennedy of being soft on the Soviets or soft on communism. If there’s an analogy to be made, it’s that you negotiate out of strength. And you negotiate to strengthen national security. That clearly is how President Obama sees this agreement with the Iranians.”

Obama could tear a page from Kennedy’s speech without altering a word. Like Obama with Iran, Kennedy did not ask Americans to trust the Soviet Union.

“No treaty, however much it may be to the advantage of all, however tightly it may be worded, can provide absolute security against the risks of deception and evasion,” Kennedy said. “But it can — if it is sufficiently effective in its enforcement and it is sufficiently in the interests of its signers — offer far more security and far fewer risks than an unabated, uncontrolled, unpredictable arms race.”

The White House on Tuesday did not enumerate similarities with Kennedy and the nuclear test-ban treaty, worried about taking on even more baggage than the Iran deal already has.

Earnest said that Kennedy had to make concessions to the Soviet Union in the test-ban treaty that was reached in August 1963, two months after the AU speech. Earnest said that Obama, by contrast, “didn’t have to make any concessions.” He stressed that “there’s no impact from this nuclear agreement on the United States and our — either our nuclear programs or our military programs.”

The president deployed all his arguments in a nearly two-hour meeting Tuesday evening at the White House with two dozen leaders of the American Jewish community and pro-Israel groups, some supporters and others opponents of the plan. People involved in the discussion said Obama was forceful in arguing that the nuclear agreement, while not perfect, is a preferable to alternatives that would be likely to lead to a military confrontation.

Obama, while acknowledging some of the activists’ concerns, expressed frustration at the intensity of the public criticism some of the opponents were mounting, participants said.

“At one point, he essentially said this would not be as big an issue and as big a fight if basically the pro-Israel community was not making it into a big fight,” said one participant who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a private meeting. “That’s the only reason why we are where we are. So essentially, the takeaway was that he was broadly asking the organizations to consider stepping back.”

Obama pointedly noted that the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) was spending $20 million in an ad campaign to denounce the deal. The activists countered that Obama was unfairly characterizing opponents of the deal as preferring a military confrontation, according to people in the room.

The president suggested to AIPAC that “if you guys would back down, I would back down from some of the things I’m doing,” said the person involved in the discussion, who added, “I don’t think AIPAC will take him up on it.”

Obama said that if the deal were to fall apart, he would likely face calls within three to six months to use military strikes to stop Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon. “To the president’s credit, he kept acknowledging the legitimacy of the concerns of the critics,” the person in the room said. “He wasn’t saying that the concerns and criticisms were not warranted. Iran is a terrible actor on one hand; he wasn’t going to the point of saying, ‘You guys are just crazy,’ but he was saying, ‘To suggest there’s a better way to do this is not realistic.’­ ”

Netanyahu in his webcast took on Obama’s suggestion that rejecting the deal would mean war. “I don’t oppose this deal because I want war, but because I want to prevent war,” Netanyahu said. The time limits of the agreement mean Iran would have an easier time developing a bomb in 10 or 15 years, he said, calling that period “the blink of an eye.”

Obama’s speech is also a bookend to a more ambitious speech he delivered in Prague in 2009. Then, Obama said the United States would “seek a new treaty that verifiably ends the production of fissile materials intended for use in state nuclear weapons.” But Pakistan, which some experts say will add 20 nuclear weapons to its stockpile this year, has blocked moves to cut off such supplies in international talks that require unanimity.

Obama also vowed to strengthen the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, but the review conference failed to approve a consensus document earlier this year.

The president did win congressional approval for an important new START pact on Christmas Eve 2009, but more recent efforts to engage Russia have fizzled.

wapo
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2235 em: 2015-08-07 19:36:34 »
The Economy Vanishes




There was almost no discussion of the economy in last night’s debate, which is actually weird if you consider the Republican self-image. These guys portray themselves as high priests of growth, the people who know how to bring prosperity. And remember all the crowing about how Obama was presiding over the worst recovery ever?

But now, not so much. The chart shows private-sector job gains after two recessions — the 2001 recession, and the 2007-2009 Great Recession — ended, in thousands. You can argue that the economy should have bounced back more strongly from the deeper slump; on the other hand, 2008 was a huge financial crisis, which tends to leave a bad hangover. Anyway, once the right is arguing that Obama’s better recovery wasn’t really his doing, it has already lost the argument.

Now, am I claiming that Obama caused all that job creation? No — policy was pretty much hamstrung from 2010 on. But the right confidently predicted that Obama’s policies, especially his “job-killing” health reform, would, well, kill jobs; as Matt O’Brien notes, The Donald confidently predicted that unemployment would go above 9 percent. None of that happened — nor did any of the other predicted Obama disasters.

Recovery should have been much faster, and I believe that there is still more slack than the unemployment rate suggests. But if President Romney were presiding over this economy, Republicans would be hailing it as the second coming of Ronald Reagan. Instead, they’re trying to talk about something else.

krugman

então se se comparar com a retoma austérica europeia deve ser de chorar...

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Incognitus

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2236 em: 2015-08-07 19:52:00 »
Deve (sobre a Europa), mas novamente o Krugman está a deixar de fora algo que é conhecido: recessões profundas provocam rebounds mais violentos. A "Grande Recessão" foi mais profunda que a recessão vinda das dotcoms, logo o rebound foi mais violento principalmente se visto em termos absolutos como o Krugman faz nesse artigo (em vez de uma % da população empregue recuperada, por exemplo).

https://www.princeton.edu/jrc/events_archive/repository/second-conference/Slides/Bordo_2013.pdf

-------

Adicionalmente o Krugman deveria saber que para provar o seu ponto, teria que usar uma amostra maior que 1. Se bem que mesmo aí a amostra seria sempre pequena demais, e as recuperações afectadas por demasiados factores, para se poder dizer que Democratas ou Republicanos são mais ou menos competentes a produzir recuperações económicas. Nem na esmagadora maioria dos exemplos deve a estrutura regulatória alterar-se o suficiente para que existam grandes diferenças atribuíveis a uns ou outros.

« Última modificação: 2015-08-07 19:54:20 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2237 em: 2015-08-07 20:05:20 »
é curioso: os conservadores usam exactamente o mesmo argumento parea criticar esta job recovery; mas ao contrário.
dizem a mesma coisa que o Incognitus, mas referem que esta é das piores job recoverys depois de uma recessão.

heads I win, tails you lose

por isso é que não vale a pena debater com os conservadores actuais...



recuperações do emprego depois de outras recessões. conspicuamente ausente, a recuperação pós dot.com bubble.

nada de novo nesta frente.

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2238 em: 2015-08-07 20:10:37 »
Obama, The Economy, And 3 Big Problems That Have Slowed Growth
January 21, 2015

Economically speaking, President Obama started deep in a hole, but has managed to climb his way out. It took roughly six years for the economy to finally pick up steam, a good deal longer than many previous recoveries. For an awful lot of people, the past several years have been tough, and even more so for the millions of Americans who were already struggling to make ends meet before the crisis. Millions of jobs disappeared, and although the numbers show they have returned, many are part-time, or low-paying, rather than positions that can sustain a family, or lead to financial prosperity and personal growth.

Particularly for our struggling neighbors, the recovery over the past half-decade has seemingly taken an eternity. The thing is, those people wondering what the hold up has been are right in one aspect: this recovery has taken substantially longer than in previous recessions. There are several factors at play, and it seems true to many that while things look good on paper, the sentiment in much of the country is that it doesn’t feel like things are any better.

The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development detailed some of the factors behind the slow ascent back to economic normalcy in a report, profiling some of the macroeconomic and financial challenges still facing many Americans. They do lay out some facts — like job numbers going up and consumer confidence rising — but there are other aspects at play that are clearly holding things back. “This is not a ‘business-as usual’ recovery. The economic rebound has been weaker than after past recessions, not only because of the lingering effects of the financial turmoil but also due to unusually large cut-backs in public spending, including government employment, and the long-expected retirement of baby boomers,” the report says.

A combination of low wages, regressive tax structures, and failing social safety nets haven’t given people the traction to climb the economic ladder. Cost increases in education and cost of living have also played a role. Loss of jobs to overseas markets, and jobs that were cut and haven’t returned, or came back at much lower pay and hours. These are just a few of the issues that have slowed us down significantly.



The wage problem

The wage issue has its genesis in several key areas. For starters, you can look back several decades — to the 1970s, in fact — to see where productivity and employee compensation, two things that historically had been intimately linked, disconnect from each other. This has only gone on to hold true over time, as productivity for businesses has shot through the roof, but wages have stagnated. Other safety net measures for low income workers, like the minimum wage, have also flat-lined or weakened with time.

By having businesses perform better, taking in more and more in profit and revenue, wealth has increased dramatically. The problem is, almost none of that wealth is being shared with the majority of the workforce; it has instead been held by top executives, shareholders and members of the upper classes. Traditionally, reinvestment of that wealth into the community through the stock market, taxation, or charitable giving have helped even the playing field economically, but that is less and less the case.

The recession only helped magnify problems with wage disparity. The cutting of social safety nets during the most trying times for many low-wage Americans has amplified the problem as well, and poverty rates have shot up as a result of increasing inequality. The tide does look to be changing, at least a little bit. Many cities and individual states are bumping up minimum wage levels on their own, and others appear to be following suit. Solving the issue with stagnating wages, and increasing minimum wages to sustainable levels would be a significant domino to knock over in creating a cascade effect across the entire economy.

Over the past six years, job numbers have steadily risen, and the unemployment rate hit has hit below 6%. This indicates a return to levels last seen before the recession hit, and the effects can be found in increased travel and spending, as well as jumping real estate values and consumer confidence. People are more willing to spend money, take on credit card debt and go on vacations when they are confident in their ability to pay for it.

Boosts in domestic energy production, fueled by the natural gas and oil industries in states like North Dakota and Ohio have helped create a good number of jobs, and return many people to work. The biggest issue on the employment front is that while many jobs have been recovered since the recession, they are low-wage positions that are a considerable downgrade from their previous forms. What were once middle-class jobs have been reincarnated as low-wage positions, putting extra strain on those who have been able to find a job, even after looking for months, or even years.

The Washington Post says mid-wage occupations that pay between $13.83 and $21.13 per hour constituted 60 percent of the positions lost during the recession. However, those positions make up only 27% of the new jobs being created. Jobs paying below that mark of $13.83 have been dominate, making up 58% of the new positions created. In order to get back in proper economic order, America needs to find ways to build up its middle class, and creating good, well-paying jobs is a start.

The government has provided a helping hand to many, but their inaction or ineffectiveness on things like job creation, wages, and securing unemployment benefits for a good part of the downturn has also been a factor in elongating the recovery. Congress has been gridlocked by competing ideologies (though that could change with the now Republican-dominated House and Senate), which has led to hardly any legislation getting passed. As a result, the country has become a political mess with ordinary citizens turning against each other, pointing fingers and assigning blame.

One way the government can help is by rebuilding social safety nets. Many safety nets that low-wage individuals have come to rely on — like food stamps and housing assistance — have come under threat and even been cut as cost-saving measures. By taking these critical crutches away, many people are falling even farther behind economically. Even those who constantly rally against spending on social welfare of any kind usually benefit in some shape or form.

Comprehensive tax reform is the final piece to the puzzle. While the rich and large businesses are constantly able to get away with fancy financial footwork in an effort to avoid paying taxes, almost everybody else picks up the slack. Simplifying the tax code to make it easier to understand can pay dividends as well, on all fronts. There are several strategies to consider reshaping taxes, and if some ideas from economists were actually put into practice, prosperity could return even faster.

fonte
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Incognitus

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Re: Krugman et al
« Responder #2239 em: 2015-08-07 20:13:04 »
é curioso: os conservadores usam exactamente o mesmo argumento parea criticar esta job recovery; mas ao contrário.
dizem a mesma coisa que o Incognitus, mas referem que esta é das piores job recoverys depois de uma recessão.

heads I win, tails you lose

por isso é que não vale a pena debater com os conservadores actuais...



recuperações do emprego depois de outras recessões. conspicuamente ausente, a recuperação pós dot.com bubble.

nada de novo nesta frente.

L


Eu não estou a dizer coisa nenhuma que não seja o facto de mostrar que o Krugman está a ser "misleading" com o que faz ali, tal como foi misleading com a comparação Reagan/Clinton.

Tu no Reagan/Clinton pareces ter compreendido porquê. Espero que aqui também compreendas.

Sobre esses gráficos excluirem a crise das dotcom, outros as incluirão certamente. Aqui vai um:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/11/the-scariest-jobs-chart-private-sector-edition/264485/

"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com