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Autor Tópico: Lust for Gold  (Lida 27877 vezes)

Lark

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #40 em: 2013-04-15 19:22:17 »
Gold Does Not Glitter

So, the slide in gold has turned into a rout. As Joe Weisenthal says, this should be seen as really good news, because it offers strong evidence that the goldbug/inflationista view of the world — which says that we need to stop all efforts at monetary and fiscal stimulus lest we turn into Weimar — is, in fact, all wrong.

But Joe is, I think, deluding himself if he imagines that this will make any difference. After all, the inflationista view of the world has been repeatedly, devastatingly wrong on many fronts — interest rates, inflation, the effects of austerity. Has anyone other than Narayana Kocherlakota (who deserves big props for intellectual flexibility) actually changed his or her mind in response?

In fact, by and large the goldbug response to each failed prediction has been to claim that evil government officials are hiding the truth. Interest rates are low? That’s because the Fed is suppressing them. How can it do that, year after year, without causing runaway inflation? Oh, actually we have runaway inflation, but the BLS is faking the numbers (and independent measures, like the Billion Prices Index, are part of the plot).

Sure enough, the response of many goldbugs to the latest events has been to cry conspiracy.

Maybe, just maybe, the gold crash will finally bring intellectual capitulation. But I wouldn’t bet on it.

krugman
« Última modificação: 2013-04-15 19:22:33 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Zel

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #41 em: 2013-04-15 19:30:56 »
eu nao gosto de ouro como investimento mas esta queda tb nao me parece nada de especial, o ouro subiu todos os anos desde sei la quando e uma queda forte nesse contexto eh normal

Lark

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #42 em: 2013-04-15 19:36:23 »
EVERYONE Should Be Thrilled By The Gold Crash

On Friday, when the price of gold plunged we said it was "great news."
That crash is continuing, with gold now below $1400/oz.

The idea behind saying the gold news "great news" is basically this:
The last few years have seen a major ideological battle take place.

On one hand you have established economists, who believe the government has tools at its disposal to address a crisis.
These tools include deficit spending and a violent expansion of the Fed's balance sheet.

Conversely you have critics who slam the arrogance of economists and central planners, and who have predicted that all of this economic acrobatics would result in an economic collapse, hyperinflation, and an explosion in the price of gold.

Gold is important to their worldview, because it represents a quasi-money that's not tied to any government or central bank.
Investing in gold is a rejection of government money and finance.
Money flowing into gold-related assets represents a belief that rocks (however shiny they are) are a better place to invest than human endeavors (like stocks).
Here's a chart of the S&P vs. gold going back a few decades.

[gráfico 1]

You can see that even with the recent upturn in stocks, relative to gold, gold has crushed stocks since 2000.
Arguably, 2000 represented a peak in belief in the capabilities of humans.

The internet inspired all kinds of crazy optimism about how humans would re-shape the world for the better.
The ebullience spread beyond the net.
There was, for example, optimism about new ways of transporting humans: Fuel cells! Segway!

Of course, the bubble crashed. Then we had 9/11. Then we had two wars. Then we had the housing implosion. Then we had the financial crisis. Then the horrible recession. Then the European crisis and the debt ceiling and everything else.

In other words, we had a series of a events that, for good reason, shook our faith in humanity. During this time, people thought about history on a large scale.
And gold, having been used as a money for thousands of years, did pretty well, especially relative to stocks, which represent companies made up of humans.
If we zoom in on the above chart, we see that stocks vs. gold (red line) actually bottomed in Summer 2011. Stocks themselves bottomed in early 2009 (blue line).

[gráfico 2]

The nadir of the red line came immediately after the US debt ceiling struggle, which is when it looked like the U.S. — weary of crisis and angry about everything — might do the unthinkable and blow itself up by not paying its debt.
That didn't happen (fortunately) but if you want to pinpoint a time when it made the most sense to believe in rocks over humans, that was probably the moment.
Since then, the fever has begun to break.
Washington is fractious, but not like it was in 2011.
Housing, which was central to America's national malaise, has begun to turn around for real.
Note that the XHB (homebuilder ETF) made its bottom right around then, and then began to turn around for real (via Stockcharts.com).

[gráfico 3]
 
So ultimately, the decline of gold and the rise of stocks is a big trend that everyone should cheer.
The huge corpus of economic research, which has informed the US' efforts to stimulate the economy, is not a pile of garbage.
You can do a lot without blowing things up, as the goldbugs claimed would happen.
And more broadly, this represents a breaking of the fever, and perhaps a return to thinking that humans aren't such a horrible disappointment.

Joe Weisenthal
« Última modificação: 2013-04-15 19:43:31 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Kin2010

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #43 em: 2013-04-15 21:38:45 »
Duvido da tese de crash.

O ouro pode estar a aproximar-se de um mínimo, a partir do qual retomará o bull market.

A favor desta tese, o facto de haver pânico dos pequenos investidores, com as reservas do GLD a serem descarregadas em massa, a crescente posse de ouro pelos bancos centrais, e o facto de o bull que o ouro teve nos últimos 12 anos não ser nada de especial comparado com as commodities em geral.

dafuq

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #44 em: 2013-04-15 21:56:21 »
Agora é esperar que algum blogger ou analista faça as contas ao que grandes investidores e hedge funds perderam em 4 dias. Nao tem piada, é so mesmo pela grandeza dos numeros. Deve ter havido fundos a perder 2 ou 3 bilioes ou mais, em 3 dias.

Quico

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #45 em: 2013-04-15 23:53:34 »
Desculpem lá o despropósito mas sempre que leio o título deste tópico lembro-me deste tema!  :D

Iggy Pop - Lust For Life

...e estando ainda por cima a "shortar" o ouro há umas semanas, até me apetece...
"People want to be told what to do so badly that they'll listen to anyone." - Don Draper, Mad Man

Lark

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #46 em: 2013-04-16 00:36:01 »
a minha favorita

The Passenger - Iggy Pop and The Stooges 70's

« Última modificação: 2013-04-16 00:37:03 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

JoaoAP

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #47 em: 2013-04-16 01:56:31 »
Agora é esperar que algum blogger ou analista faça as contas ao que grandes investidores e hedge funds perderam em 4 dias. Nao tem piada, é so mesmo pela grandeza dos numeros. Deve ter havido fundos a perder 2 ou 3 bilioes ou mais, em 3 dias.
Na semana passada tínhamos isto:
Citar
In early March COT reported Gold short positions reached the highest level in over a decade
In early March Gold's Public Opinion reached one of the lowest levels in at least a decade
Last week COT reported Silver short positions reached the highest level in almost two decades
Last week Silver's Public Opinion reached one of the lowest levels in at least a decade
Por isto...

Pedro.J50

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #48 em: 2013-04-16 19:06:26 »
O tema é interessante e eu não sei nada sobre o assunto.
Julgo que se pode investir em moedas, ( libras de ouro,por exempl), barras .
1- Vantagens de desvantagens de cada um desses investimentos?

2- Qual a diferenla entre o preço  de compra, e de venda venda da barra ?
Se eu  comprar hoje e vender amanhã( supondo que o preço se mantém igual) , qual o prejuízo que eu teria ?
Existem barras de dez gramas...,100 gramas...;

E no que se refere às moedas, às libras, nomeadamente?
3- O Preço de compra venda varia conforme os locais onde se façam as mesmas.
Porém qual o prejuizo " médio" que o investidor tem, qual a diferença média entre compra e venda?

4- Alguém conhece a empresa ourinveste ?
Ela é credivel ? ( ou será  preferível comprar as libras no banco  ) ?

5- As libras no banco são mais caras do que em empresas particulares tais como a ourinveste.
Essas libras  compradas a  empresas particulares( ourinveste nomeadamente ) têm liquidez ?

São estas a minhas dúvidas.
Desde já agradeço a quem  se disponibilize a tirar-me estas dúvidas.



Lark

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #49 em: 2013-04-16 19:31:05 »
ah...
é assim que o hermes guarda o ouro físico
no físico

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Zel

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #50 em: 2013-04-16 20:02:28 »
devo comprar no final do dia umas opcoes no xau para um dead cat bounce

Lark

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #51 em: 2013-04-17 01:32:56 »
The Rules of Goldbuggery

1. Gold is a Currency: This is rule number 1. It is not a decorative or industrial metal, it is a permanent store of value, as dictated by Greeks in Lydia around 700 B.C. And, it shall be ever thus.

2. The price of gold cannot fall, it can only be manipulated lower: When gold’s price falls, it is an unnatural act. It can only occur as the result of an international cabal of Central Bankers and politicians. Its a conspiracy, and we know who the guilty parties are.

3. If the price of gold is rising, it is doing so despite enormous and desperate efforts by manipulators to prevent the rise: This is the corollary to the prior Rule of Gold manipulation. Gold runs up despite the overwhelming opposition to it.

4. The world MUST return to the Gold Standard one day:  It is inevitable that we will return to a Gold Standard. We all know this to be true. When we compare the size of the money supply to past amounts when there was a Gold Standard, we can derive prices of Gold in the $7,000, $10,000 even $15,000. Hence, we know its cheap even at $2,000.

5. Central Bankers are printing money relentlessly, and this can only drive Gold prices higher: NOTE: You must ignore, for the moment, that Gold has not gone higher for the past 2 years as Central Banks around the world have ramped up QE. This only means that ultimately, Gold will go much much higher.

6. Gold works whether the economy is good or bad: When we have a red hot economy, Gold is your hedge against inflation. When we have a bad economy, Gold is a safe harbor against collapse. It is a one way trade that never fails!

7. Gold will survive after the world economy crumbles: Gold is the ultimate currency, as it has a value that will survive even after the whole world tumbles around you. Get yourself some gold coins and a Glock and you will be just fine when the whole world goes to shit. We welcome the era envisioned in the movie Mad Max.

8. Never admit that Gold is essentially a sucker’s bet: Never discuss how in the last century, gold has run up only be to trounced in repeated massive sell offs (always blame rule #2 for this). Do not discuss how this has happened in 1915-20, 1941, 1947, 1951-66, 1974-76 1981, 1983-85, 1987-2000 and 2008.

9. Gold is a rejection of government, and their control of fiat money and finance: There are no printing presses that produce gold, it is finite, natural and God created. How much we scrape out of the ground each year is limited, and the only variable to the old equation. (Just ignore Man’s natural tendency to organize into to City-States over the past 12,000 years).

10. All Gold discussions must contain ominous macro forecasts: Your description of why Gold is going higher must consist of spurious correlations, unprovable predictions, and a guarded expectation of bad things int he future. Avoid empirical data at all costs.

11. Gold is always rallying in one currency or another: Sure, it may be down 30% in Dollars, the reserve currency it is priced in, but you can always find a currency falling faster than it does and claim you own it in that denomination. Last week, it was up in Japanese Yen. This week, it is up in Zimbabwe dollars.

12. China & India know the value of Gold; the Western world does not: The massive buying of gold by consumers in Chindia reflects the culture, intelligence and investing savvy of the people in these countries. The West doesn’t get it, and it is their loss.

Bonus rule: Never admit Gold might be falling because it trades on human emotions and psychology and has no intrinsic value whatsoever.

BARRY RITHOLTZ

Citação de:  Warren Buffett
“Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head”
« Última modificação: 2013-04-17 01:34:18 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Zel

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #52 em: 2013-04-17 08:41:25 »
mas em caso de catastrofe e' ouro que queres ter, nao sao accoes nem moeda fiat

alia ouro e armas...

portanto e' um seguro para algo improvavel

kitano

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #53 em: 2013-04-17 10:01:47 »
Mr L,

On the mark!

mas em caso de catastrofe e' ouro que queres ter, nao sao accoes nem moeda fiat

alia ouro e armas...

portanto e' um seguro para algo improvavel

Em caso de catástrofe, alguns eleitos pegam nas barrinhas de ouro para ir comprar pão...e descobrem que não há pão.
"Como seria viver a vida que realmente quero?"

Zel

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #54 em: 2013-04-17 10:57:59 »
Mr L,

On the mark!

mas em caso de catastrofe e' ouro que queres ter, nao sao accoes nem moeda fiat

alia ouro e armas...

portanto e' um seguro para algo improvavel

Em caso de catástrofe, alguns eleitos pegam nas barrinhas de ouro para ir comprar pão...e descobrem que não há pão.

salvo uma catastrofe que destrua TUDO a coisa nao funciona assim, podes estudar o assunto... se quiseres



hermes

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #55 em: 2013-04-17 10:59:35 »
Mr L,

On the mark!

mas em caso de catastrofe e' ouro que queres ter, nao sao accoes nem moeda fiat

alia ouro e armas...

portanto e' um seguro para algo improvavel


Em caso de catástrofe, alguns eleitos pegam nas barrinhas de ouro para ir comprar pão...e descobrem que não há pão.


Se esses eleitos estão a comprar ouro para esse fim, não podias dar melhor prova de estarem a planear mal! Par isso compram umas conservas e outros podutos alimentares de longa duração ou "vícios" que as outras pessoas têm [alcool e tabaco]. Caso precises de provas, deixo-te aqui o diário de Anna Eisenmenger:

Blockade - The Diary of an Austrian Middle-Class Woman 1914-1924

Não obstante o ouro até nem ser das piores coisas para se ter tido nessa altura, este é o mais adequado para passar o poder de compra pelo fundo da agulha a fim de usar esse mesmo poder de compra no além do sistema monetário actual.
"Everyone knows where we have been. Let's see where we are going." – Another

Zel

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #56 em: 2013-04-17 11:00:14 »
aquilo que caracteriza o lark e' uma total falta de entendimento do desconhecido e imprevisivel e facto de estar protegido da realidade pelo ecran do computador

se o lark fosse trader ja teria falido 100 vezes e em cada uma dessa vezes teria tido um modelo do mercado infalivel
« Última modificação: 2013-04-17 11:03:33 por Zel »

Local

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #57 em: 2013-04-17 11:03:55 »
Só ouro compra pão no Zimbábue, mostra vídeo de opositor
http://noticias.terra.com.br/mundo/noticias/0,,OI3509722-EI294,00-So+ouro+compra+pao+no+Zimbabue+mostra+video+de+opositor.html

lembro-me de ver esta peça jornalística à uns tempos.

Mas isto apenas acontece em casos muito extremos, na Argentina ainda aceitavam os pesos. E é apenas quando não se dá valor ao dinheiro, pode acontecer uma catástrofe mas as pessoas continuarem a valorizar o papel moeda.

PS O Lark é trader...
“Our values are human rights, democracy and the rule of law, to which I see no alternative. This is why I am opposed to any ideology or any political movement that negates these values or which treads upon them once it has assumed power. In this regard there is no difference between Nazism, Fascism or Communism..”
Urmas Reinsalu

Zel

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #58 em: 2013-04-17 11:05:27 »
e' trader? entao ja faliu ?

eu sei que o lark faz alguns trades...
« Última modificação: 2013-04-17 11:06:06 por Zel »

Local

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Re:Lust for Gold
« Responder #59 em: 2013-04-17 11:09:14 »
Eu tenho muitas dúvidas acerca da melhor forma de ultrapassar a crise, mas até agora, tem tido a sua razão e os EUA estão a responder melhor à crise. Não quer dizer que no futuro a dívida americana não leve o dólar a uma grande desvalorização, mas no curto prazo a resposta dos EUA tem sido mais eficaz que a europeia.
“Our values are human rights, democracy and the rule of law, to which I see no alternative. This is why I am opposed to any ideology or any political movement that negates these values or which treads upon them once it has assumed power. In this regard there is no difference between Nazism, Fascism or Communism..”
Urmas Reinsalu