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Zakk

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3280 em: 2015-05-19 17:53:08 »
Esta frase resume a mentalidade dos gregos e a sua postura nestas pseudo negociações...  :D

Varoufakis prefere ficar a dever ao FMI do que não pagar salários
http://observador.pt/2015/05/19/varoufakis-prefere-ficar-a-dever-ao-fmi-do-que-nao-pagar-salarios/

E o $$$ para pagar os salários vem de....   :-\ :-\


Achas que não se pagam impostos na grecia?
Acho que até portugal conseguia viver sem pagar a divida.
Tinha é que andar muito direitinho.

Elder

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3281 em: 2015-05-19 18:03:59 »
Esta frase resume a mentalidade dos gregos e a sua postura nestas pseudo negociações...  :D

Varoufakis prefere ficar a dever ao FMI do que não pagar salários
http://observador.pt/2015/05/19/varoufakis-prefere-ficar-a-dever-ao-fmi-do-que-nao-pagar-salarios/

E o $$$ para pagar os salários vem de....   :-\ :-\


Então onde estão os 210 bn € que receberam de ajudas?!?!  :-\
Achas que não se pagam impostos na grecia?
Acho que até portugal conseguia viver sem pagar a divida.
Tinha é que andar muito direitinho.

Zakk

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3282 em: 2015-05-19 18:07:18 »
Esta frase resume a mentalidade dos gregos e a sua postura nestas pseudo negociações...  :D

Varoufakis prefere ficar a dever ao FMI do que não pagar salários
http://observador.pt/2015/05/19/varoufakis-prefere-ficar-a-dever-ao-fmi-do-que-nao-pagar-salarios/

E o $$$ para pagar os salários vem de....   :-\ :-\


Então onde estão os 210 bn € que receberam de ajudas?!?!  :-\
Achas que não se pagam impostos na grecia?
Acho que até portugal conseguia viver sem pagar a divida.
Tinha é que andar muito direitinho.



No bolso deles.
Repara que os emprestimos são para pagar emprestimos que se vence (grosso modo) não para pagar salários.

Salvo erro a grecia já não tinha defice primario.

jeab

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3283 em: 2015-05-19 19:53:29 »
« Última modificação: 2015-05-19 19:54:11 por jeab »
O Socialismo acaba quando se acaba o dinheiro - Winston Churchill

Toda a vida política portuguesa pós 25 de Abril/74 está monopolizada pelos partidos políticos, liderados por carreiristas ambiciosos, medíocres e de integridade duvidosa.
Daí provém a mediocridade nacional!
O verdadeiro homem inteligente é aquele que parece ser um idiota na frente de um idiota que parece ser inteligente!

tommy

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3284 em: 2015-05-20 17:39:42 »

http://www.dinheirovivo.pt/Economia/interior.aspx?content_id=4578688

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A agência Moody's afirma que "muito provavelmente" a Grécia terá de recorrer a controlo de capitais e congelamento de depósitos no prazo de um ano devido à incerteza política e à falta de liquidez.
"Esta pressão poderá não ser aliviada nos próximos 12 ou 18 meses, pelo que há uma alta probabilidade de que se imponha um controlo de capitais e congelamento de depósitos", disse a Moody's em comunicado.
A agência de notação financeira manteve a perspetiva negativa quanto ao sistema bancário grego devido à "grave deterioração no financiamento e liquidez das entidades financeiras" e afirmou que a fuga de depósitos de mais de 30.000 milhões de euros desde dezembro de 2014 faz com que os bancos estejam cada vez mais dependentes do banco central.
A esta situação acresce a incerteza sobre a continuidade do país sob programa de resgate, o que põe em risco a confiança dos credores, segundo o comunicado.
A agência destacou que os bancos gregos provavelmente necessitam de capital adicional, depois das recapitalizações de 2013 e 2014.
A Grécia e as instituições credoras do país (Comissão Europeia, Banco Central Europeu e Fundo Monetário Internacional) estão há vários meses em negociações sobre as reformas que o país deverá aplicar para que seja desbloqueada uma tranche de 7,2 mil milhões de euros do empréstimo concedido em 2012. Este financiamento é considerado vital para a Grécia.
« Última modificação: 2015-05-20 18:04:08 por Incognitus »

Zark

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3285 em: 2015-05-20 17:56:43 »
Greece says it will default in June without aid from lenders

Greece cannot make an upcoming payment to the International Monetary Fund on June 5 unless foreign lenders disburse more aid, a senior ruling party lawmaker said on Wednesday, the latest warning from Athens it is on the verge of default.

Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras's leftist government says it hopes to reach a cash-for-reforms deal in days, although European Union and IMF lenders are more pessimistic and say talks are moving too slowly for that.

Greek officials now point to a race against the clock to clinch a deal before payments totalling about 1.5 billion euros ($1.7 billion) to the IMF come due next month, starting with a 300 million euro payment on June 5.

"Now is the moment that negotiations are coming to a head. Now is the moment of truth, on June 5," Nikos Filis, spokesman for the ruling Syriza party's lawmakers, told ANT1 television.

"If there is no deal by then that will address the current funding problem, they won't get any money," he said.

Talks between Greece and its lenders have foundered on Athens' demand to roll back labour and pension reform as well as lower fiscal targets set under its bailout programme.

Among concessions Athens is mulling is a special tax on banking transactions to help raise revenue to meet fiscal targets, though discussion of the levy is at an early stage, two sources close to the talks said.

If the talks collapse, Tsipras's government has made clear it will pay pensioners and public workers before servicing debt.

Greek officials have warned several times in recent weeks that Athens could run out of cash, only to then scrape through obligations by resorting to draconian measures such as ordering state entities to hand over cash or in the case of an IMF payment last week, by emptying out an IMF reserves account.

Four days before the payment was made, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras wrote to EU and IMF lenders warning that Athens could not make the 750 million euro payment - prompting accusations of a bluff that has deepened mistrust.

Still, analysts agree the country's cash squeeze is increasingly acute and fresh aid will be needed sooner or later to avoid bankruptcy. Ratings agency Moody's said there was a high likelihood that capital controls and a deposit freeze could be imposed as savers pull deposits from banks over fears of a national bankruptcy and a Greek euro zone exit.

The European Central Bank's governing council is due to meet later on Wednesday and will decide whether to dole out more emergency liquidity assistance to Greek banks, who have been kept on a drip-feed of liquidity injections amid the crisis.

POLITICAL PUSH

Despite the spectre of impending bankruptcy, Tsipras has sought to maintain a brave face in public and will lobby European leaders at the EU summit in Riga this week for a political agreement to break the impasse.

Briefing top parliamentary officials in his party on Tuesday, Tsipras said the government was aiming for a deal by June 3 that would release over 7 billion euros in pending aid from the bailout, said one lawmaker who attended the briefing.

The premier also expressed optimism that differences with lenders on value-added tax hikes, privatisations and budget targets could be bridged to strike a deal now. Greece is pushing to delay discussion of pension reform to later this year, the lawmaker said.

Such a delay would be unlikely to win the sympathy of the lenders, who want Athens to offer more concessions and focus on bridging differences at technical-level talks aimed at trying to make the numbers on work.

A deal could still be struck in the coming weeks but will depend on the degree of political will as there are still big gaps in the talks on labour and pension issues, EU Economic Affairs Commissioner Pierre Moscovici said.

"The Greek government has shown it can be creative in reimbursing its lenders but we must go quickly (in striking a deal with Greece)," he told a French Senate committee gathering in Paris. "It's a matter of days and weeks."

In a reminder of the early acrimony in talks between the two sides, Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis told the German weekly Die Zeit that his German counterpart Wolfgang Schaeuble made mistakes in his analysis of Greece.

"It is frustrating that we are not able to speak with each other in a context where arguments count more than relative power," said Varoufakis, who has been sidelined in recent weeks in negotiations with lenders.

reuters
If begging should unfortunately be your destiny, knock only at the large gates.

Arabian Proverb
--------------------------------------------------
You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run
You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done

Kenny Rogers – The Gambler
------------------------------------------
It is not enough to be busy; so are the ants. The question is: What are we busy about?
Henry David Thoreau

D. Antunes

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3286 em: 2015-05-20 22:50:21 »

"It is frustrating that we are not able to speak with each other in a context where arguments count more than relative power," said Varoufakis, who has been sidelined in recent weeks in negotiations with lenders.

reuters


Para quem não percebe inglês, o Varoufakis está a dizer o seguinte: eu tenho o patuá, vocês (alemães, holandeses, finlandeses, portugueses?, búlgaros??) têm guito. Se eu arranjasse um bom (na minha óptica) argumento, vocês deveriam dar-me mais guito para gastar. Mas, injustiça das injustiças, vocês são mais fortes que eu (senão estariam tramados...) e não cedem aos meus argumentos, apesar de serem (na minha opinião e na de todo o pessoal que considero ser minimamente decente) melhores do que os vossos argumentos.

Como a vida é injusta que protege os fortes e não os que têm bons argumentos!
« Última modificação: 2015-05-20 22:52:21 por D. Antunes »
“Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.”
“In the short run the market is a voting machine. In the long run, it’s a weighting machine."
Warren Buffett

“O bom senso é a coisa do mundo mais bem distribuída: todos pensamos tê-lo em tal medida que até os mais difíceis de contentar nas outras coisas não costumam desejar mais bom senso do que aquele que têm."
René Descartes

Incognitus

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3287 em: 2015-05-21 00:20:13 »
É uma coisa absurda, "tenho bons argumentos, entreguem-me o dinheiro". Obviamente que é quem tem o dinheiro que sabe o que são bons e maus argumentos para o entregar ...
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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vbm

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3288 em: 2015-05-21 04:10:46 »

"It is frustrating that we are not able to speak with each other in a context where arguments count more than relative power," said Varoufakis, who has been sidelined in recent weeks in negotiations with lenders. [ ]


Para quem não percebe inglês, o Varoufakis está a dizer o seguinte: eu tenho o patuá, vocês (alemães, holandeses, finlandeses, portugueses?, búlgaros??) têm guito. Se eu arranjasse um bom (na minha óptica) argumento, vocês deveriam dar-me mais guito para gastar. Mas, injustiça das injustiças, vocês são mais fortes que eu (senão estariam tramados...) e não cedem aos meus argumentos, apesar de serem (na minha opinião e na de todo o pessoal que considero ser minimamente decente) melhores do que os vossos argumentos.

Como a vida é injusta que protege os fortes e não os que têm bons argumentos!

Muito interessante, antunes, lark! No plano da lógica e do arrepelo da lógica nem sempre vingar, assim como pelo irremediável de  valores opostos, está aqui um 'role playing' bem ilustrativo da realidade social, interpessoal. :) Mas que tem de equacionar-se e resolver-se - isto é, de 'solver-se' num «fundo de resolução», der por onde der! :).

Que os diferendos desejavelmente se resolvam por força dos argumentos e não pela força relativa dos contendores opostos poderá ser incontestável se esses argumentos derivarem sem falhas de premissas elas próprias incontestáveis. (E isto até por uma razão empírica: - é que não é por se deduzir validamente de uma verdade uma conclusão, que esta se torna verdade! É por a conclusão e o princípio de onde ela se deduz serem ambos verdadeiros, que se consegue deduzir validamente um do outro! Acrescente-se que se fossem ambos falsos, também a dedução era possível ser válida; e também, que se o princípio fosse falso, poder-se-ia dele deduzir, com validade, quer uma conclusão verdadeira, quer uma falsa; portanto, sem nada ficar provado).

De modo que temos de remeter o debate para o delinear da base ou dos princípios em que deva assentar irrefutável, porque se aí estiver indeterminada a verdade ou falsidade da premissa, nunca saberemos se a nossa argumentação alcança uma conclusão verdadeira ou falsa. Sabemos só que se ambos forem verdade - princípio e conclusão -, é de certeza possível raciocinar direito de um para outro!

Assim, propor-se-ia que o debate não assentasse no ‘patuá’ mas no ’guito’. Ora, o guito só se quita com o guito. Pelo que quitá-lo só acontece através de quem o tenha. Assim, o grego tem razão:  ‘vocês’ têm o guito:  logo, quitem-no entre si que por mim é impossível.

E agora começa a  parte ‘misteriosa’: porquê esta verdade cristalina não é compreendida?

Bem, economicamente percebe-se porquê:  o guito do credor foi emprestado ao credor o que lhe permitiu ir produzir bens que entregou ao devedor. Por consequência, embora o guito de credor a credor se resolvesse por movimento simétrico de guito de credor a credor, o ponto é que os bens ficaram com o devedor e assim há um locupletamento real à custa alheia. Salvo se… os bens produzidos não tiverem utilidade nenhuma e tiverem sido apenas o pretexto para dar de comer a desgraçados envolvidos na produção de bens sem interesse nenhum!

Assim, a origem do desacordo, ou melhor do  acordo impossível, pode estar neste ponto. Que mereceria análise cuidada. E talvez se pudesse quitar com outro tipo de bens, também sem interesse nenhum, e desta vez, dados por parte do devedor! Uma sugestão: umas cinco ilhas desertas e desabitadas devem equivaler bem a cinco submarinos submersos num mar de cadáveres ex-migrantes.


(Peço me desculpem. Eu estou a brincar um bocado. Foi só para me distrair. Não levem a mal. Não é que não ache que não tenha alguma razão no raciocínio acima. Mas é claro que é apenas um apport de reflexão e não a «resolução» do diferendo.)
« Última modificação: 2015-05-21 04:16:50 por vbm »

tommy

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3289 em: 2015-05-21 08:36:57 »
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/19/world/europe/for-greeks-uncertainty-on-next-paycheck-and-countrys-future.html?rref=world/europe&module=Ribbon&version=context&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Europe&pgtype=article&_r=0

Citar
Mr. Kalfakis, the mechanic, said his net wages were reduced in 2012 to €1,100 a month from €1,800, even as his three fellow mechanics were laid off. Now he and others say they are closely watching the political negotiations and hoping that the uncertainty hanging over Greece finally can be resolved.


1100€ ... e andam portugueses, e outros europeus a receber ordenados substancialmente inferiores a este e que não se queixam.

Uma vergonha .. é o verdadeiro "chorar para continuar a mamar...sem trabalhar". Lema dos parasitas e do pessoal tipo Lark, Zark, etc.

tommy

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3290 em: 2015-05-21 11:16:22 »
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-05-21/reform-not-stimulus-is-the-way-out-for-greece

Citar
A widely told narrative of the economic crisis in Greece holds that it is the product of excessive austerity, imposed by arrogant outsiders who misread the situation. The only way out, the story goes, is to break the resulting recessionary spiral with a policy of fiscal stimulus.

This account doesn't stand up to scrutiny and needs to be countered if the current brinkmanship over Greece's bailout is to end well.

To begin, it is odd to claim that a crisis caused by a 10-year infusion of excessive cash can be cured by means of further stimulus. The theory that it can assumes that Greece lacks sufficient “effective demand,” or the capacity of consumers to purchase goods and services at current prices. Restore this and a virtuous circle of growth will follow.

A single statistic should suffice to cast doubt on this assumption. Greece's gross domestic product was similar in 2001 and 2014, measured in constant 2005 prices, meaning that “effective demand” in these two years before and after the debt crisis was approximately equal. And yet unemployment in 2014 was almost triple the 2001 level. The key to resolving Greece's economic woes must, therefore, lie in something other than demand.

Greekoped2
Equally telling is that during the five years since the crisis began, Greek imports have exceeded exports by almost 60 percent. Although Greeks are certainly buying fewer foreign goods than in 2007, it is clear that insufficient “effective demand” is not the root problem here. What has been lacking is “effective supply” -- the ability of the Greek economy to produce enough competitively priced goods to sell and grow.

Greekoped1
So why has the recession been so deep and so lasting, if not because of austerity? The answer lies in what happened between 2001 and the start of the financial crisis.

After the euro was introduced in 1999, Greece received more in credit than it needed every year, between 5 percent and 10 percent of gross domestic product. Populist politicians funneled this excess money to their political clients, explaining the windfall as a “development dividend” that resulted from “structural convergence” with the core euro area countries. This was a fantasy, because there was no such convergence. Yet, it was natural for the recipients of this largesse to see it as real and permanent income.

Even after the crisis erupted, nobody from the political establishment had the courage to confess what had really been going on. This is why most Greeks still believe the country's “normal” level of wealth is equivalent to the 240 billion euro GDP achieved in 2008, and that every deviation must be the result either of an anti-Greek conspiracy or ill-conceived economic policies. These misguided beliefs lie at the root of the popular disillusionment with Greece's mainstream political parties, and explain the rise of the anti-austerity, anti-reform Syriza party.

The misunderstanding of what underlies the crisis isn't just held by ordinary Greeks; sophisticated proponents of the anti-austerity narrative believe it, too. But it is no less wrong for that.

Look at the unemployment rate, which has jumped from about 10 percent to almost 30 percent since 2010. This simply doesn't correspond to an output gap -- the difference between an economy's actual and potential levels of activity -- that could be quickly closed by stimulus. You could pump cash into the economy to increase demand and GDP still wouldn't return to its 2008 level, from 180 billion euros ($200 billion) today.

There are multiple factors to explain why Greece's potential output has fallen. One is that the unemployed lack the knowledge and qualifications to work in those economic sectors capable of expanding the economy; another is that it probably doesn't have enough of the high growth, tradeable sectors necessary to boost the economy.

In fact, a policy of Greek fiscal stimulus would have the perverse effect of creating jobs in Germany, China and other exporting countries that would simply sell their wares to Greece.

This is why we take issue with suggestions that ending austerity would unleash the Greek economy, or that structural reform is less urgent because it takes too long and has too limited an impact. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence that Greece has been unable to become more competitive and escape its economic doldrums, because it has failed to adopt the structural reforms needed to give it a sustainable 240 billion euro economy again.

There is, however, one aspect of the complaint Greeks lodge against their euro area partners that is well founded: namely, that Greece should have been allowed to default in 2010. Had that happened, the overall debt burden on the Greek economy would be at least 50 billion euro smaller than it is today, improving the prospects for a healthy recovery. This necessary and timely default was prevented, because it would have harmed some too-big-to-fail European banks.

The upshot is that in addition to all of its self-inflicted wounds, Greece is paying a hidden tax to subsidize the rescue of foreign banks. That injustice needs to be recognized and righted through debt relief.

Greece’s creditors are correct when they say the only way for the economy to recover is by putting in place structural reform. Yet they are also wrong in refusing to discuss the possibility of debt reduction. A gesture on debt restructuring would not only help to relieve the Greek economy from an excessive burden, but also restore trust between Greeks and their creditors and offer an important incentive to carry through the structural reforms our country so desperately needs.

tommy

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3291 em: 2015-05-21 12:21:40 »
Citar
CAMBRIDGE – When looking out a window, it is easy to be fooled by your own reflection and see more of yourself than the outside world. This seems to be the case when US observers, influenced by their own country's fiscal debate, look at Greece.
For example, Joseph Stiglitz regards austerity in Greece as a matter of ideological choice or bad economics, just like in the US. According to this view, those who favor austerity must be obsessed with the theory, given the availability of a kinder, gentler alternative. Why would you ever vote for austerity when parties like Greece's Syriza or Spain's Podemos offer a pain-free path?

The question reflects a lamentable tendency to conflate two very different situations. In the US, the issue was whether a government that could borrow at record-low interest rates, in the middle of a recession, should do so. By contrast, Greece piled up an enormous fiscal and external debt in boom times, until markets said “enough" in 2009.
 Greece was then given unprecedented amounts of highly subsidized finance to enable it to reduce gradually its excessive spending. But now, after so much European and global generosity, Stiglitz and other economists argue that some of Greece's debt must be forgiven to make room for more spending.
But the truth is that the recession in Greece has little to do with an excessive debt burden. Until 2014, the country did not pay, in net terms, a single euro in interest: it borrowed enough from official sources at subsidized rates to pay 100% of its interest bill and then some. This situation supposedly changed a bit in 2014, the first year that the country made a small contribution to its interest bill, having run a primary surplus of barely 0.8% of GDP (or 0.5% of its debt of 170% of GDP).
Greece's experience highlights a truth about macroeconomic policy that is too often overlooked: The world is not dominated by austerians; on the contrary, most countries have trouble balancing their books.
Recent advances in behavioral economics show that we all have enormous problems with self-control. And game theory explains why we act even more irresponsibly when making group decisions (owing to the so-called common pool problem). Fiscal deficits, like unwanted pregnancies, are the unintended consequence of actions taken by more than one person who had other objectives in mind. And lack of fiscal control is what got Greece into trouble in the first place.
So the problem is not that austerity was tried and failed in Greece. It is that, despite unprecedented international generosity, fiscal policy was completely out of control and needed major adjustments. Insufficient spending was never an issue. From 1998 to 2007, Greece's annual per capita GDP growth averaged 3.8%, the second fastest in Western Europe, behind only Ireland.
But by 2007, Greece was spending more than 14% of GDP in excess of what it was producing, the largest such gap in Europe – more than twice that of Spain and 55% higher than Ireland's. In Spain and Ireland, though, the gap reflected a construction boom; euro accession suddenly gave people access to much cheaper mortgages. In Greece, by contrast, the gap was mostly fiscal and used for consumption, not investment.
Unsustainable growth paths often end in a sudden stop of capital inflows, forcing countries to bring their spending back in line with production. In Greece, however, official lenders' unprecedented munificence made the adjustment more gradual than in, say, Latvia or Ireland. In fact, even after the so-called Greek Depression, its economy has grown more in per capita terms since 1998 than Cyprus, Denmark, Italy, and Portugal.
Sudden stops are always painful: economics has not discovered a hangover cure. But the way to minimize the pain is to cut spending without cutting output, which requires selling to others what residents can no longer afford. In other words, unless Greece boosts exports, spending cuts will amplify the output loss in the same way that Keynesian multipliers amplified the output gain from borrowing.
The problem is that Greece produces very little of what the world wants to consume. Its exports of goods comprise mainly fruits, olive oil, raw cotton, tobacco, and some refined petroleum products. Germany, which many argue should spend more, imports just 0.2% of its goods from Greece. Tourism is a mature industry with plenty of regional competitors. The country produces no machines, electronics, or chemicals. Of every $10 of world trade in information technology, Greece accounts for $0.01.
Greece never had the productive structure to be as rich as it was: its income was inflated by massive amounts of borrowed money that was not used to upgrade its productive capacity. According to the Atlas of Economic Complexity, which I co-authored, in 2008 the gap between Greece's income and the knowledge content of its exports was the largest among a sample of 128 countries.
Too much of the debate since then has focused on what Germany, the EU, or the International Monetary Fund must do. But the bottom line is that Greece needs to develop its productive capabilities if it wants to grow. The unfocused set of structural reforms prescribed by its current financing agreement will not do that. Instead, Greece should concentrate on activist policies that attract globally competitive firms, an area where Ireland has much to teach – and where Stiglitz has sensible things to say.
Unfortunately, this is not what many Greeks (or Spaniards) believe. A large plurality of them voted for Syriza, which wants to reallocate resources to wage increases and subsidies and does not even mention exports in its growth strategy. They would be wise to remember that having Stiglitz as a cheerleader and Podemos as advisers did not save Venezuela from its current hyper-inflationary catastrophe.

Read more at http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/greece-export-problem-by-ricardo-hausmann-2015-03#VrPrsCeqCIFforUI.99
« Última modificação: 2015-05-21 12:23:00 por tommy »

Incognitus

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3292 em: 2015-05-22 15:48:22 »
A Grécia tem 156 F-16 ... valentes.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Zel

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3293 em: 2015-05-22 17:02:10 »
A Grécia tem 156 F-16 ... valentes.

o que impressiona na grecia eh estarem ao mesmo nivel economico que nos, temos de estar a fazer algo mesmo muito mal feito com o nosso pais
« Última modificação: 2015-05-22 17:02:31 por Neo-Liberal »

Incognitus

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3294 em: 2015-05-22 17:22:37 »
Pelo menos para o turismo a Grécia leva vantagem, graças às ilhas, ao Mediterrâneo e à sua história.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Zel

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3295 em: 2015-05-22 17:52:02 »
eles tem 18 milhoes de visitantes e nos temos 15 milhoes, essa diferenca nao paga assim tantos f16... nao so tem 200k soldados e sao um pais muito mais corrupto que nos. algo nao bate certo, temos de ter um podre qualquer muito grave. tb nao faz sentido a diferenca enorme entre nos e espanha qd sao culturas parecidas

joana18

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3296 em: 2015-05-22 18:46:23 »
Amigos,

Gostava de ganhar dinheiro com a e eventual falencia da Grécia.
Alguém tem ideias?
(CDS da grécia já percebi que não se arranja)


Joana

Existe um ETF sobre a grécia: GREK

Mas repara que a falência da Grécia não é uma certeza, e se não ocorrer vender curto a Grécia pode resultar mal.

É mais seguro não fazer nada. E SE a Grécia falir ou sair do Euro, aí comprar após a implosão inicial.

Esse ETF dá para shortar? Ou só para estar longo?
No Saxobank existe um CFD:lyxor ETF Athex 20 ( GRE:xpar ); se escolher a opção vender para este CFD, significa que estamos curtos neste CFD?
(Isto pode parecer parvo mas nunca comprei CFDs)

Incognitus

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3297 em: 2015-05-22 18:55:54 »
O GREK dá para vender curto numa corretora que o permita.

O CFD deve dar para vender curto vendendo-o sem ter posição.

Em todo o caso e como disse, a única coisa óbvia é comprar SE falir após falir. Vender agora é arriscado, podes acordar um dia com a UE a dobrar-se e a Grécia a subir 15%.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

joana18

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3298 em: 2015-05-22 19:17:26 »
Li nas noticias que a Grécia ia vender os Portos, sabem se vai ser um IPO, se sim quando vai ser?

joana18

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Re: Investir na Grécia
« Responder #3299 em: 2015-05-22 19:19:35 »