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Assumption.  Speculation.  No cold facts so surely it must be a Ponzi.   :twisted:   That's right, anything that can't be figured out must be bad.  It's human nature not to trust.

You didn't mention anything about the ELEVEN companies in the Pure Investor portfolio.  Do some more research.

No assumptions, just logic.

I would like to see you people dispell the doubts that my article brings up.

How did you people just come across the Jesus of finance, able to outperform every other investor ever by a margin of more than 700%?

PIPS is not giving 775% a year, they give 276 a year, big different ha?, 2% a day is included your initial investment.

Visitante, they give 775% a year if you do 1 year at 100% reinvestment, and the 2nd year at 100% withdrawal, using their own simulator.

Don't forget money compounds monthly at huge rates.

BTW, it would STILL be a Ponzi even if it was just 100-200% per year.

Do you know what rates are possible and what rates are impossible in a sustained basis in the markets? Do you expect to earn more per year than either Bill Gates or Warren Buffet out of a scheme you just found in the internet?

Can't you open your eyes to that? It's kinda obvious, you know?

WOW the only people even reading your stupid site are you and PIPS forum members simply because you posted the link.   Maybe you should find another profession because you have a lot of speculation and no FACTS.

Get em strait buddy...Here are a few to get you started seems how you need a hand...


PIPS Premier (has just been started up and has several products running on it already)
PIPS Financial Services (the licensing arm to take deposits legally from anywhere in the world)
PIC Capital (dealing with leasing and loans)
PIPS Realty (Property investments)
PICPAY (PIPS' own e-currency)
PIC Trust (trust company registered in New Zeeland)


CORPORATE BRIEF

Brokers
Refco Group Ltd. LLC is the world's largest non-bank futures commission merchant with more than US$3.3 billion in global client equity and holds membership in all principal International Exchanges. CBOT, CME, COMEX, CSC, EUREX, IPE, LIFFE, LME, NYMEX, SGX.

Fund Corporate Directors
EC Corporate Management incorporated under the Malaysian Companies Act 1965, Licensed and regulated by Labuan Offshore Financial Services Authority ("LOFSA") to operate and conduct full range of activities permitted under Labuan Trust Companies Act 1990. EC Corporate Management services include provision for Corporate Director, the expertise to act as a Local Manager for the purpose of providing trading documentation services, administration i.e. back office services and managing the operational transaction flow of the trading activities.

PureInvestor
PureInvestor.Com Inc (Company No. LL 03518) incorporated under the Labuan Offshore Financial Services Authority Malaysia.Company Directors: Bryan Marsden CEO,Foo Ming Lam,Phan Sew Ken,EC Corporate Management. Pureinvestor.Com Inc are the owners and operators of the Pureinvestor Portal.

PureInvestor Private Fund Inc.
PureInvestor Private Fund Inc (Company No. LL 03560) incorporated under the Labuan Offshore Financial Services Authority Malaysia and is currently authorised up to US$100 Million. Company Directors: EC Corporate Management. PureInvestor Private Fund are Managers and Custodians of the Investment Funds.

Trading
Pureinvestor Trading is contracted out to independent Traders on a performance basis, this ensures maximum returns are achieved. The Asset and Portfolio Managers are however directly employed to manage the Trader activities and implement risk management policies.

Trustee
EC Trust (Labuan) Sdn Bhd is incorporated under the Malaysian Companies Act 1965, Licensed and regulated by Labuan Offshore Financial Services Authority ("LOFSA") to operate and conduct the full range of activities permitted under Labuan Trust Companies Act 1990 including acting as Trustee, agent, executor or administrator; incorporating or registering companies; settling Trusts; and the provision of management and accounting services to, or directors , secretaries and registered offices for, offshore companies. EC Trust provides the registered office and other services to PureInvestor.com Inc and PureInvestor Private Fund Inc.


PIPS Team Management


Bryan Marsden (CEO and founder of PureInvestor.com Inc)
Born in England, Bryan was trained and qualified as an Electrical Engineer in 1967. Working for the General Post Office, he developed his knowledge and skills in the areas of facilities Management until 1970 when he joined the Royal Air Force for a period of 5 years.

On leaving the Royal Air Force, Bryan continued his Facilities Management career with the National Health Service and various Facilities management organisations in th eprivate sector.

In 1986, Bryan established a Facilities Management partnership which successfully undertook major projects for corporate and public sector clients including IBM, LIFFE, London Stock Exchange, Credit Suisse First Boston Bank, Texaco and British Railways.

In 1994, he ventured into Malaysia to develop Facilities Management business inetrest and undertook Consultancy / Project Management projects at Kuala Lumpur International Airport, Guthrie and IOI in the palm industry.

Utilising the finance, analytical and business skills gained through many years in the Facilities Management industry, Bryan began the process of designing the Pure Investor model and initiated its launched in 2002.

Bryan's experience and expertise in wide variety of businesses and industry sectors has been teh guiding light for the growth and development of the Pure Investor Group.
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Alan Foo Ming Lam (Executive Director of PureInvestor)
A qualified accountant by training and profession. Alan is also a graduate in Food Science from Wyoming University, USA. His initial years as an accountant, between 1989 and 1994 with Tor & Cp, a Kuala Lumpur-based public accountants, exposed him to auditing, accounting, taxation and financial consultancy.

Eising from an audit trainee to general manager of Tor & Co, Alan took on more complex tasks, includinf financial consultancy for SMIs in multiple industries.

Five years later he joined as a business partner in Cheng & Co, another Kuala Lumpur-based public accountant and was primarily involved in business development activity of the firm, adding new top-notch companies to its portfolio of clients.

In 1996, Alan was appointed executive director of Top Assignments Consulting and since then he has been actively involved in the development of SMIs in Malaysia between 1997 and 2000, Alan has successfully assisted in securing close to RM90 million in loans for more than 20 companies from major commercial and goverment banks in Malaysia.

As the executive director of consulting frim for SMLs, Alan holds regular dialogue with Central Bank of Malaysia (Bank Negara), Credit Guarantee Corporation, Goverment Development Banks, the Malaysia Economic Planning Unit, under the Prime minister's Department, the Ministry of Finance in Malaysia and Commercial Banks, including offshore banks.
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Phan Sew Ken (Director of PureInvestor)
Phan is a Malaysian born of Chinese parentage. She undertook her teacher training at the Malayan Teacher's College and spent 10 years teachong young children in Goverment Schools.

In 1986, she undertook a number of business courses and ventured into the business world, taking up posts in the roles of secretary, administration and office manager with various international companies in the construction, development and infrastructure industries.

Her love for teaching young children saw Phan establish her own preschool company in 2000, providing education through nurseries, kindergartens and day care centres.

Phan's knowledge and expertise in administration has been invaluable in the setting up and operation of the PureInvestor offices.
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Gary J Nichol (Director / General Manager of PureInvestor.Com Inc) In Charge when Bryan is not in the office.
A result oriented leader with proven success in managing and controlling multimillion dollar companies with diverse interests, ranging from golf course development to investment and finance, Gary joined PureInvestor.Com late 2003 after three years as regional director of Asiatic Investments Ltd, an international offshore investment group with offices in Hong Kong and Seychelles.

A skilled negotiator with sharp business acumen, Gary has track record of bringing companies fron the brink to profitability and implementing drastic corporate alignment programs which positively contributed to profitability ahead of targets or doubling of the share price within a short time.

With a strong background in and a passion for landscaping. Gary set out early in his career as general manager with Suncoast Greens Pty Ltd, a golf course renovation and contracting firm in Brisbane.

Six years later, he left to lecture at Queensland TAFE, Nambour, Australia in golf course management and horticulture. Gary is credited with being the first Australian lecturer to design study modules in gold course design.

He left lecturing for better prospect with Rodger Davis Golf Course Design in Queensland as its chief executive officer and moved to Malaysia in 1991. Before taking up this international posting, Gary, who studied civil engineering and landscape architecture at Queensland University of Technology, was national sales and marketing manager for a year with one of Australia's largest resort developers, Roach Property & development. A year earlier, he held a similiar position at Home Corp Pty Ltd, also in Sydney where he boosted bottom line profits and transformed company business in two years by the use of technology to re-engineer financial and investment products.
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Mohamad Ayub Abdul Malek (Director / General Manager of PIC Capital Sdn Bhd)
Mohamad Ayub is a Corporate Banker and as Director cum General Manager of PIC Capital, he is responsible for the Portfolio Team looking after investments in various hire purchase and leasing activities of the fund. He brings with him more than 15 years experience in risk assets.

Mohamad Ayub has held a number of roles during his 20-odd years in corporate banking, credit & marketing and venture capital.

He was previously AFFIN Finance Berhad's (AFB) Assistant General Manager of Marketing & Business Development. Besides ensuring AFB's risk assets, he monitored the effectiveness of the credit and marketing terms and personally veted all corporate proposals prior to presentation to AFB board of directors for approval.

A Hartford University, MBA graduate, Mohamad Ayub started his career in 1977 with pharmaceutical manufacturer, Inchcape Group of Companies Malaysia, as a production executive tasked with the smooth running of the production lines.

Seven years later, he left to join IBM World Trade Corporation as marketing representative. Between 1986 and April 1990, Mohamad Ayub served with Chase Manhattan Bank N.A, Kuala Lumpur and Oriental Bank Berhad as credit & marketing officer. In May 1990 he was appointed Assistant Vice President (credit & marketing) of Security Asian Bank Ltd in charge of maintenance of corporate loans portfolio and business development.


*IMPORTANT EDIT: THIS CALCULATION ONLY HOLDS TRUE FOR A LINEAR MEMBERSHIP GROWTH (see bottom of post)*


So today was a slow day at work, I was bored, and I decided to confront “said words” with cold mathematics.

First a bit of infos about me. I am a member of PIPS, but unlike most of the people who post here, I’m not a man of blind faith. Only logic, verifiable facts and cold mathematics are my religion .PIPS likes to throw around a lot of incredible, mind-blowing numbers, numbers that almost always made me smile with a “yeah right” expression on my face. I’m sure a lot of you, people who wish to stay anonymous and not post, think like me. I’ve already posted a few messages here, and also been called a troll a few times (thanks guys, I love you too!).

Anyway the calculation that will follow is based on one and only FACT: the fact that until now every single member has been paid their withdrawals. I’ve looked all around the web and I couldn’t find any single message about a pipster not being paid (well unless PIPS “silence” them before ).

I’ll be doing the calculation based on the worst case for us members/best case for pureinvestor.com. I’ll consider the current growing rate to be 6000 members per month (could be more or could be much less, the calculation would still be proportionate). Still following the worst case scenario, I’ll consider that every member has put their reinvestment on a poorly planned 60% since the opening of their account.

To avoid complex calculations, I’ll assume that all members took the $450 account option with no additional investment. I know it doesn’t reflect reality, as many took the 3*$170 option and many others added more money to their $450 account. But that would only add complexity to the calculation, without really changing the ending conclusion. But if you have some free time to kill, go ahead…

So:

6000 members after 18 months: that’s 6000/18 = 333 new additional members on average coming every month, on top of the previous month growth number.
That makes us a total of 333*(18+17+16+15+14+13+12+11+10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1) = 56943 total members in PIPS today (I think that matches pretty closely what has been told too - for *PIPS* alone -).

Now all these members spent $450: that makes a total of $25,624,350 in PIPS bank account, accumulated in 18 months.

Ok now time to pull out the trusty Torben Simulator and calculate what members got paid so far: (Total withdrawal * number of members for each month)

For those who joined
18 months ago: 7677.76*333 = $2,556,694.08
17 months ago: 6478.70*333*2 = $4,314,814.20
16 months ago: 5439.76*333*3 = $5,434,320.24
15 months ago: 4542.22*333*4 = $6,050,237.04
14 months ago: 3768.70*333*5 = $6,274,885.50
13 months ago: 3101.19*333*6 = $6,196,177.62
12 months ago: 2533.25*333*7 = $5,905,005.75
11 months ago: 2047.38*333*8 = $5,454,220.32
10 months ago: 1630.99*333*9 = $4,888,077.03
09 months ago: 1276.15*333*10 = $4,249,579.50
08 months ago: 979.14*333*11 = $3,586,589.82
07 months ago: 736.07*333*12 = $2,941,335.72
06 months ago: 541.71*333*13 = $2,345,062.59

I’ll stop here, assuming newer people are holding on withdrawals for a bit.
So Total Paid until today = $57,851,936.69

To recap, in 18 months:
$25,624,350 into PIPS
$57,851,936.69 out of PIPS

So, following that worst case scenario, there is like 2 times more money taken out, than money brought in. Therefore, unless my math is totally messed up, there is no way that PIPS could be a ponzi! (that is, paying older members with newer members money).

And hopefully with the Allianz insurance around the corner (ETA anyone? Been waiting since August now…), we will be assured that the money PIPS make is clean money



===================================


ADDED EDIT:


Nostrade wrote:
Yautja wrote:
... as I considered a worst case scenario. By worst case I mean a scenario that would benefit PIPS the most (they would have to pay us the less possible amount while getting as much money as they can from us).


...and this was what I pointed out. An exponential growth of members would be the worst case scenario (PI gaining the most - as you write), not a linear one (333 per month). Fact is that we were less than 10.000 members in mars/april this year...

Nostrade


Yes, thanks for pointing this out Nostrade. The calculation, in its current state, only holds true in the case of a linear growth.
But if there were only really 10000 members by April 2004, then the growth would be EXPONENTIAL (which would indeed mean lots more money for PIPS bank), as we are about 60k members now.

Now since I can’t draw the member’s growth curve without having more data on membership pre-April 2004, I can hardly determine any amount of money taken out.

I’ll only be able to do an accurate, exponential-based calculation in like 4-6 months from now. So until then, you guys will have to rely on the conventions stuff for those who can go there, and what you can find on the web for those who can't. Sorry.

Just thought I would add that so far this year with my own investing in stocks alone I have been able to achieve over 100% in ROI.  Also  on one real estate deal this year I bought and sold a home for a profit of $20,000 having to use only $500 of my own money up front and this was in just short of 2 months.  If I can achieve what you call impossible then I better tell the world so I can be famous......oh and your quotes on Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are retarded at best.  Both of them were able to gain way more than what you have posted here....get your facts straight.

Visitante, it IS possible to have returns in excess of 1000% per year on any given year.

It IS impossible to promise those returns and start paying them in a 2% daily basis.

Do you understand the difference?

Or do you really believe Bryan is the Jesus of finance and only he can get those returns, and he decided to spread them through the face of earth even while not doing the same for himself previously?

Do you really believe that?

Yep, Nightmare, since you are Portuguese, if you have anything to do with www.pipsportugal.com, it might happen that the CMVM might want a word with you.

Ok, lets see if we can get this discussion to a more proper level, too.

Let me ask you something I ask all PIPSters.

If it turns out to be a fraud, what will you morally do? Will you hand over the money you got from other people you even assured was no fraud?

If Bryan is Jesus, then that makes you the anti Christ :)

Well consider this.

For over 6 months there have been serious problems with
the referral scheme. People signing others up did not get
their commissions, and members on the PIPS forum were
SHOUTING for it to be fixed. Scores of people would not
bring in new people because of it.

Now, if PIPS were a ponzi, would it not focus on fixing that
problem a.s.a.p.?????

I give you the 2 possible answers:

1) Their computer programmers are really stupid and just could not do it, whereas all scammers could
2) Bringing in new funds is not really important, and they rather focus on strenghtening the programs that bring the 2% in.

seeing all that their IT have accomplished, it only leaves option 2.

Happy Pips Member (not Visitante)

PIPS Member, there seems to be a general confusion as to what a Ponzi scheme is. You - and others - are thinking that to be a Ponzi Scheme, it has to have a MLM structure.

Well, it doesn't. Not even Ponzi himself had a MLM structure. To be a Ponzi scheme all it has to be doing is paying the interest for some investors from the Capital of others.

And, given that PIPS promises a return that is unattainable on a sustainable way (noone EVER managed those kinds of returns, not Bill Gates, not Warren Buffett, noone), this is SURE to be happening.

Get my point?

And when it turns out to not be a fraud, will you pay all the people do didn't join the interest that they would have gained?

Visitante, maybe you haven't understood. It CANNOT NOT turn out to be a fraud, for the simple fact that there isn't enough money on earth to keep that thing going for more than 6 years or so.

It IS a fraud. It's as obvious as it gets.

So I ask again, what will you people morally do, will you people turn the money over to those that will get hurt?

Incognitus,
Where did my post indicate that I think Ponzis need an MLM structure?
Pips does not have an MLM scheme.It only pays a straight $10/m for personal referrals.

I was pointing out that they have not been helping the process
of getting new members in, by their inaction to fix the
referral commissions. Members were angry, not because of the
$10 per se, but because it made pips look unprofessional.

You were (are) saying that all funds come from the (new) members.
I was saying that if that is the case, that PIPS would have focussed on things that help getting new members in.

I think it's not a scam. Your opinion, which I respect, may differ.

Happy PIPS Member

The $10 referral is not the main driver for people into PIPS. The 2% per day is. This kind of pyramid doesn't need the referral bonuses, as much as Ponzi's didn't need any referral either - what brought people in were the outrageous promised returns.

Bear in mind that this isn't simply "my opinion". It's a pratical impossibility for it NOT to be a scam. It isn't a matter of opinion.

Your statment are 100% wrong!!!

Don't bring Sorros, Gates or Buffet on the table before you know what you are talking about dude.

Buffet, Gates & Sorros are counpounding their interests and they have exponential ecrease of their money and it is much more than 30-40% per annum!!!!

I know at least 10 companies paying 100% and more per annum since decade to their members. No one is a PONZI.

Just don't compare apple with orange...

Or you wont be credible

IRobot

IRobot, you are wrong. Both Soros and Warren Buffet compounded below 40% per year, and to prove that, let me take this copy+paste from Warren Buffett's latest letter to his shareholders:

"Average Annual Gain — 1965-2003 22.2"

That's 22.2% for Berkshire Hatahway, the real numbers are slightly higher because they also got some valuation increase, but they still lag 30% per year (I must say I used 30-35% to be exagerating in the upside).

Of course, PIPSters believe the internet just dropped them a plan that outperforms Warren Buffett by a few hundred percent AND is legit.

yes, right.

Have no doubt I know what I am saying. Have no doubt that scam will blow up.

If you don't believe me, you can always check it yourself here:

http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2003ltr.pdf

Give me a break this is WITHOUT compouning...

Nope. This is the annual compounded rates.

Compounding makes rates smaller.

And the 775% I quoted for PIPS is also yearly compounded. The 1.9% is not compounded daily, but it also does compound monthly.

Irobot, the 22.2% from 1965 to 2003 comes to 259000% after all those years.

The 775% on the PIPS thing would beat that after the THIRD year. If you started with as much as Warren had in 1965, you'd have more than him after 3 years.

And you still think PIPS is legit? Even looking at the raw numbers without any Warren Buffett comparison should make you open your eyes. Come on, do you REALLY believe $472.5 can grow that much, that fast?

And do you really, really think it's legit after seeing these numbers, man?

Let me also quote something else from Warren Buffett for you ... he didn't even have ONE year above 60% from 1965 to 2003. And you expect that PIPS thing to turn out several hundred percent per year for whoever opens an account with them?

Jesus, man, are those eyes open yet?

If they are, then please go to the PIPS forum and copy+paste our discussion over Berkshire Hathaway, maybe it opens some more eyes there too.

I can tell you your artical is bullshit.

You missed one characteristic of Ponzi in your article. And I can also tell you, it's that Ponzi doesn't have products or services. Does PIPS have? Go find your yourself before you making nonsense. :x

Products or services are kinda irrelevant. And besides, PIPS is paying out money NOW and what products/services is Pureinvestor conveying now that are growing at the rate PIPS grows? Even the animated bible is in the future, not now. And you have no data on the products/services either ...

And also, what does it matter anyway? Are you saying Pureinvestor is going to outperform Berkshirehathaway by a few hundred percent? Berkshire hathaway was based on products and services too ...


And it not being an exact copy of Ponzi is no excuse. And Ponzi DID have products/services. Stamps and their trading.

Look people, it doesn't get more obvious than this.

I know you are possessed by blind faith, but DO take into account the numbers, figures, what is possible, what is not, what has happened in the past, etc, etc.

This IS a scam, and no one is going to present it much clearer than what I am doing, except when it blows up.

Those PIPS units don't go on forever.  They stop earning interest in 180 days.

The simulator takes care of that.

BTW, I forgot one argument I might need to add to the article: business is not as predictable as the returns from the PIPS program. That alone shows that the returns from the PIPS program are independent from business.

Look man, there's nothing more I can say. This is a very, I mean VERY obvious fraud going on here. It will blow up. It's sad that people are ready to con others to their advantadge, but it's reality.

why don't you mind your own business and get on with your life and let others get on with theirs. i have an absolute right to spend MY MONEY the way that i wish. If i go to a casino and lose that is my problem not yours. If i give money away that is my decision.

You have no right to interfere with other peoples lives.

Goodbye

fredo

Ah, I'm as much for liberty as you are.

But it happens that this scheme is a scheme to defraud people, and most people can't see that. Although they have the right to blow up their money, they also have the right to be informed.

One more thing, the "migration" will one day be final, just like every other "migration" out there. It's already odd that the functions to keep pouring money in are functional, and the ones to withdraw it aren't. Funny.

Hello Incognitus

I would like to know how long this PUreinvestor compnay has been around, and how long PIPS has been going on?  If you could point me to some info on the internet by way of links, I would be grateful.

Thanks

Sorry, their website is having difficulties so I can't easily link you to the specifics in it, though you can try at www.pureinvestor.com. PIPS is reportedly running 18 months already, although some previous "programs" were rolled into it from earlier (at least another year).

So, I went to the site, how come you say it will only last 1 year if it has already been running for 18 months?

It's exponential. Exponential phenomena go like that.

For instance, in a atomic explosion, also an exponential event, there are around 16-18 "generations" of reactions, yet the last 2 or so account for most of the energy output of the bomb.

Same with this phenomena. The reason for the "quickening" is simple. The returns from the first few members are compounding and are now very reasonable values. For each of them that tries to withdraw some amount from PIPS, you start needing hundreds of new entrants to pay ... and yet the values keep growing, and the new members become older in the scheme, and they too start withdrawing at an exponential (value) rate, etc, etc.

It has no chance of surviving. For it to go beyond 1 year would mean the scheme would have to infect millions, and become the largest pyramid EVER. It wouldn't survive anyway, though.

It might also last much less than a year. The problems with withdrawing as of late (both huge delays and the impossibility during the migration) might point to a much shorter life, but that's just a supposition.

I am the same visitor from the last two visitor posts

Why do you seem so hyped up about this?  I read your site, and also the PIPs site, and both forum (yours and PIPS).  It seems that EVERYWHEREo on the PIPs site that it says there are no guarantees, yet you attack PIPs as if what is being said completely can't be true.  I read through about 100 threads on tehir forum, and no where does it say that this will last forever, furthermore, the CEO stated that he gives it a shelf life of about 25 years.  Is that so hard to believe?  I personally have worked for a real estate genius who constantly flipped properties and mode 1000% returns in 30 days. And some times much much more.  ONe time he made $460,000 in 30 days by using $500 of his own cash.  That is a pretty good return.  Granted, those don't come along everyday, but even a few of those a year start to add up.

You are wanting to police the world and save everyone from them selves, why can't people just find out for themselves? You are just pushing you one opinion, and you haven't shown any proof, of your position, while Bryan from PIPS and the many members that have taken the time to respond to you have offered much proof.  

You are so concerned about a business that wants to help people by paying them for their money instead of a bank, do you think that al of the people in the world are just like you (seem to be) in that it is a dog eat dog wrld, and everyone must look out for themselves only?  I find this a pretty lame statement, or where would we be without the UN, unicef, WWF, and all of the other charities and helpful entities in the world.  There are people and companies that have a desire to help others, and not just themselves.

You stated that Bryan, if this were a real thing, would do this for himself and make millions of dollars.  Did you ask him if he maybe already did this, and he als¿ready has millions of dollars for himself and his family??  Didn't see that anywhere.

I am a very open minded person, willing to listen to everyones views and opinions, and also to play devils advocate.  YOu are just mudslinging.  I won't even try to insult you, because that is beneath me.  But it seems that you are just out to push your own views without listening to anyone elses possibilities.

I have just joined PIPS, as it is only $450 (not $472.50 as you stated, one error that I feel compelled to correct, I was able to contact a PIPS member and get a trade in Funds for equal value, and didn't have to use a credit card)  I made sure to not invest more than I can afford to lose, as it states clearly on the site that basically, yes, PIPS could drop at anytime, I am well aware of this, so I hope you don't feel the need to prtect me for myself.

I look forward to you offering any other proof, and I have bookmarked your page here to check occasionally and see what other things you have to say.

Why don't you spend some time investingating some other fraudulent schemes now??

I focused on PIPS cause PIPS was the largest most incredible one I could find. Now I'll simply be following it to its logical conclusion.

Bryan made himself millions of dollars alright. Using this PIPS system, but not quite like the other people use it.

As for the rest of the post, I rest my case, it's tiring to try and open so many eyes to a truth that should be self evident. Following PIPS forum, you see stuff such as "Where does the money come from?" that should, by itself, make everyone open their eyes, and yet they don't and just go around with stupid arguments...

Then another guy brings up a sucessful hedge fund as proof that it can be done, while going over the fact that the very sucessful hedge fund averaged 30% over the years whereas PIPS promises a whooping 775%.

etc, etc.

Of course there's a phrase in there saying "there's no garantuees", but hey, don't you find it odd that while there isn't any garantuees, you can actually compute your returns FORWARD? Do you know how stupid is it to offer incredibly high returns that can be computed FORWARD and yet say there's no garantuees?

As for moving on, surely I will, I've got a lot of other stuff to do, but I'll always keep an eye on PIPS to see the final moments "live". This is history and I want to see it happen.

incognitus........

get a life man and quit worrying whether pips is a fraud or not. you obviously have no money in it so what the f*** do you care. Or do you? Go away. nobody gives a shit what you think.


another pips member

I gather you wouldn't care if you saw a old man being robbed in the middle of the street either. Or if you saw a blind man being short changed in some financial deal.

Well, I do care in those situations, and PIPS is no different.

I don't recall PIPs ever laying down a set contracted return rate.  The assumption that PIPsters, the simulator, and yourself make is that it will always be 2% a day.  I would check the PIPs website to see if buying a unit that lasts 180 days contracts a 2%/business day return for the length of the unit.. but the website is a bit slow and I have to wait 15 minutes for my account's login to expire.

Whoops.  Ah, looks like I need to read more before I post.

The simulator is provided by Pureinvestor, and the rate is indeed 2% a day for trading days (well, 1.9% net), compunded monthly.

For my calculations, I used the official simulator together with the following assumptions: 1 year at 100% reinvestment, 1 year at 100% withdrawal. I only compared the initial outlay ($472.5) to whatever one would be able to withdraw in the 2nd year. I didn't take into account whatever units were left after that, either (so the real rate is actually higher).

To be factual, Incognitus, when using the simulator from Torben (which you might have found by doing some real research), the return, using your scenario, is 543.56%.  
Torben's simulator is the most accurate, as it accounts for all weekends, non-trading days, etc.

Now, I know you'll still say that kind of return is unachievable.  However, take this one example:  http://www.boulat.com/hyop/private_forex_performance.html
In three months, they've managed to accumulate 113% return in the Forex market.  It IS possible to get those kinds of returns, if you're an excellent trader.

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  No kidding... Incognitus an excellent trader???

He don't even know how to run is own proffession as journalist...

A failor that's what he is. That's why he is always after those who are succeding on something...

You know what? We are spending so much time with him...

Ok, although it's odd that the official simulator wouldn't be the most accurate, I do believe that.

But there's a fallacy in that thinking about trading. Over ANY period you can achieve such returns, like 113% in 3 months, or 500% in a single day, or 150% in a year like I did in 2002.

However, you cannot PROMISE to hit those returns, since you're never certain to hit them, and for large amounts of money it is indeed IMPOSSIBLE to hit those returns reliably.

Hence, it's impossible to build a program like PIPS based on the possibility that the returns MIGHT be achieved. This is complex, but believe me, that's how it works.

Even Warren Buffet had a compounded return of just 22.2% over 40 years, and his best year in the last 40 was below 60%.

IF PIPS was for real, both Warren Buffett and every other Billionaire would be putting money into it ... indeed, they'd buy the outfit outright. Indeed, there would be no PIPS and no outfit to buy, cause if someone was able to produce those returns reliably, he wouldn't need any third party cash (like the deposits).

Get my point?

Believe me, it might take time, a lot of people might make money off other people's back in PIPS, but in the end there's only one possibility: it's a fraud.

Besides, look at Bryan himself. He knows these trading claims would make no sense, so what does he say? That there are 11 "brick and mortar" companies that actually contribute heavily towards the returns.

Again, this makes no sense. All those companies are starting up or growing, so they are all investing ... if you know something about how companies work, you'll know that when they are starting up/growing/investing they don't throw out money, they consume it. So, they CANNOT be the ones generating PIPS returns.

There's no doubt at all. It's a fraud. The only real doubt is WHEN and HOW it blows up. (the how is particularly important ... will it blow up cause there's no more money or cause the guy takes the money and flees?)

Visitante, dunno who said I was a good trader or not, but fact is, my returns since I've opened my US account beat at least 95% of the quoted mutual funds/hedge funds.

Of course, PIPS would beat EVERY investor and EVERY fund over almost ANY time frame. And guess what, someone chased you all over the world to give you those returns ... right.

As for *journalist*, you should ask Luso about that mail. It was between "quotes" for a reason.

I am really scared about PIPS. I believed incognitus' words now. It can't be true if you use a very little of your wisdom...But I have joined , has no way to out...and only hope is PIPS won't disappear after I withdraw my principle money...but that seems very difficult
hi ,buddy , if my worries comes true, PIPS will crash during the endless migration period. let's wait and see...

Nah, at least in the PIPS forum they're already talking about it being back to normalcy and the migration being done.

The way people are reinvesting the funny money, it might well take a while to implode. But you'd be smart to at least withdraw a sizable sum as soon as possible.

Meanwhile, it seems I am no longer the only doubter about PIPS. Check www.HYIPReview.com.

yeap, I DO withdraw a sum of my money. A guy want to join PIPS ,and exchange other ecurrency with my picpay. I should warn him about the ponzi risk about PIPS but I hasn't. Maybe that is the nature of humanbeing. Everybody wants more money but nobody realise the risk...I am selfish too...God forgive me.

Incognitus,could you do me a favour? I cant view the article(HYIPReview) you mentioned above, can you post here?Thanks a lot.

Well, everybody is greedy, or such a thing would never fly.

Still, you would be unlucky if the thing blew up now ... doesn't seem likely if they resume withdrawals, people are so greedy they all seem to be reinvesting the funny money, at least if one is to believe that post on their forum every everybody is gloating about going 5 months or more at 100% reinvestment.

It's so funny ... reinvesting funny money and finding 400-1500% returns in a few months natural.

Incognitus,by the way, although I think you are wasting your time to tell the truth because most pipsters want the money dreams instead of truth, I still show my respect to you. At least , I think some PIPS members are waking up from their dreams since your post on PIPS forum. Blind faith on PIPS is very terrible thing. That is my experience in PIPS forum since I joined PIPS.

Well, there's only one reason why this whole matter is indeed wasted time of sorts ... it's cause there's no money to be made in KNOWING that PIPS is a Ponzi and will blow up. So the value I'm getting from this is just from exposing a fraud for what it is, and the interest in seeing it happen real time.

But it's good training. In the markets, you need to be aware of everything to stand a chance. You need to recognize what's true and what can't be true, etc, etc.

There is a conspiracy filling in the PIPS forum...I think. Many old PIPS members claimed PIPS is a honest programme, and tried their best to defend PIPS. That doesn't mean they DO believe PIPS is a honest programme. Instead, they know PIPS is a ponzi and also know PIPS will last longer if  new money flows in this programme. So they dont want anybody post negative posts on the forum so that new members will put their money in...Shame on them. Shame on me...

Maybe. Well, I've done my part on that. I've completed reports for the FTC, SEC, FBI and now I'll try to get the story out in the open at a major newspaper/newsmagazine. Seems interesting enough, what reporter wouldn't like to have been the one exposing Charles Ponzi?

OK. Well, do you really think SEC FBI has the jurisdiction right toward PIPS. Coz it is said PIPS was incorporated in Malasia...

Now that's funny.   :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

What a big waste of time that was.

They have no jurisdiction over the source, but the law applies to people that distribute the thing in the USA too.

"distribute the thing"

What are you blabbing about?  No one distributes anything in the U.S.  It isn't MLM and NO part of PIPS operates on U.S. soil.

What is it that you don't understand?

Conferences are made and organized, people "sell" this thing and refer other people to it. If the activity is found illegal, some of those people might be in trouble. People running websites, etc. To publicize an illegal scheme is illegal itself.

Publicizing, promoting, etc, all of that is "distributing".

In the latest scams of this type, the authorities are even starting to try and put blame on the investors themselves (since they are the enabling factor in a Ponzi - and since some investors do profit from a Ponzi).

No, this isn't an MLM (I agree with that, even if there's a small reward for recruiting).

BTW, a lot of people in the PIPS board seem to think that since there's no recruiting, it can't be a Ponzi. You might as well tell them that such is not the truth. Financial pyramids and Ponzis do NOT need to have recruiting to be pyramids and Ponzis. The defining characteristic is paying some members interest from other members' capital. The original Ponzi itself had no MLM characteristics at all.

Wow, you are really misinformed and your limited knowledge proves that.  Conferences aren't "made and organized" to "sell this thing".  I suggest you do more DD (like listen to entire Vegas convention online).  Conventions are put together for members to learn about PIPS in more detail.  It is NOT a "rah rah sell to everyone on the streets of Hawaii event".  



Haha, nice usage of the "if" word.  Again, PIPS is legal and above board (the proof is out there), whether you like it or not.



I guess ignorance is bliss.  You obviously have no idea what you're talking about and how PIPS operates.

 :roll:  :roll:  :roll:

You know, for a group of people that colectively don't seem to understand that there's no such thing as hidden 14% per week, 100% per month, "sure thing" trades available to those with money, you do use the words "ignorance" quite a lot.

To make people learn in more detail about PIPS, is the same as publicizing and promoting it. Or what do you think authorities think when someone says "this pays 2% per day"?

Don't worry, something will be done. I think that within 15 minutes of starting to look at this thing, authorities will conclude its a fraud.

You people really should brush up in math, economics, business, finance. It's a shame to read the kind of things one reads in the PIPS board. It's a double shame when nobody comes out and corrects the members that say the complete irrationalities they say. The guys harping about 20-100% returns per month for large accounts are so far from reality as to be ludicrous.

BTW, PIPS has nothing "above board" at all ... I'm yet to see the first statement from their fund. Where is it? Where is the accounting on that thing so people with knowledge of accounting can go over it?

Don't harp about how it's been audited. Nothing's been audited, there's not a single document with the numbers out there. It's incredible that people plunged $300mn into a thing where there's not even a published P&L.

Go to Malaysia for yourself and see all the proof you need.  That includes balance sheets and audit reports.  A PRIVATE company does NOT need to disclose all financial statements on a public forum.

Please, pipmaniac/incognitus, stop now before digging a deeper hole.  BTW, I conlcude that YOUR a fraud.

1) There being offices in Malaysia proves absolutely nothing. Or do you think Ponzi didn't have offices of his own? His were in the USA, not Malaysia. And it didn't stop him, did it?

2) Ahhh ... and you think an investment fund is a private thing? That it doesn't have to disclose at least with some frequency its holdings and accounting, as well as the accounting of the managing firm? Oh yes, that's so "above board", speccially for something that is managed out of Malaysia.

Also, refrain from those empty phrases, like "your a fraud", and "stop before xxx". Those say nothing, the only CLEAR hole here is that PIPS fraud. It's a OBVIOUS fraud. It's laughable that there are people that can't see that. I would understand that there are people that don't WANT to see that cause they're making money, but for someone to honestly believe? Fools.

One other thing, phrases such as "doesn't have to disclose", "SEC has no jurisdiction here", etc, etc, are also indicative of fraud. EVEN when they are true.

Dude, you need serious help... i'm outta here.

I'd be more worried about being a criminal or being involved in a criminal scheme.

Ahhh ... I forgot, it ain't criminal, it's all above board and pays a modest 2% a day because Bryan is a Genius that makes money trading while globe trotting, and his 11 brick and mortar companies are also huge money makers even before starting their activity. Not to mention that if those were so profitable he could finance himself at 10%, but he thinks paying 500% for the loans is so much better.

PIPS is a huge Ponzi which I never seen before...Bryan , that so-called CEO , always show up around the world like a jester...Something must be done to stop this scandal.

Actually, there are doubts amongst PIPSters themselves ... the www.pipsportugal.com site just took out all their promotional material and just kept the fórums running.

why are you so negative? I mean, this program is doing so much good to so many people.

It's all in the article.

Ponzi schemes always end up hurting more people than those they "help", be definition.

Incognitus, since this article, as well as your previous one, fails to present any new information, facts, or original ideas regarding PIPS, I would reccomend correcting some of the spelling mistakes and gramatical errors you made.  I mean, you're going for that "well-learned financial expert" image aren't you?  The least you could do is proof-read the shit that spews from your head before your post a link to it on our forums.  The simple fact is, Incognitus, everything you've said in both of your articles has already been brought to our attention by some other "detective."  Unless you can come up with some NEW ideas, I would reccomend investing all this free time you seem to have in something more useful, say, an elementary grammar lesson or two?

I do, however, have one question for you.  The notion of placing a cap on membership to PIPS has been brough up in the forums many times, I think Bryan even mentioned it once.  So, my question to you is, IF there is a cap put on membership to PIPS in order to create a slow, steady growth of investors, would this not be evidence enough that PIPS is indeed a legit company and not a Ponzi scheme?

I look forward to your answer.

I have just one answer. Try writing what you just wrote in portuguese.

Also, if you spot mistakes, you'd be a whole lot more useful if you pointed them out for me to correct them, as I would.

A cap on membership would have to be verified. He could say there's a cap on while there was none, after all he's already claimed the 5YIP was insured by Allianz when it was not.

A real cap on membership that was not a % of the existing members, would spell doom for PIPS in a given time frame.

However, initially a cap would work in reverse: it would attract more people and thus further the Ponzi, since a lot of people would be pressed to subscribe before the cap was hit.

Look, Incognitus, you are obviously a well-educated and intelligent individual....and I respect that greatly.  I am a PIPS member and I have my doubts.  Is there anyone who is just starting in this thing that doesn't have doubts???  I would think that anyone not admitting to some skepticism is either a fool, or lying to themselves.

I jumped in with my eyes wide open and I am not promoting the site to others.  I guess I just said "what the hell" and threw in some $$ to see what will happen.  Honesty and honor are my creed and I will never lie about something even if it is for my own good.....with all that said, here is what I have to say about PIPS:

There really is no proof.  Those who think that ROI in a spreadsheet is proof are incorrect.  It is mere numbers on paper.

Those that think having buildings, employees, licenses, etc is proof are also incorrect.  Many scams appear to have a legitimate foundation.  This adds to the appeal and helps attract investors.

Those who have been paid cannot provide proof either.  I believe those who say they were paid and I believe in the amounts they profess...but that is not proof that I will be paid, or that others will be paid, or that all of us will be paid.  IF PIPS fails...who loses?  Those that have not been paid (new investors).

Bryan...  Obviously a well liked man...charismatic and charming, available to his members, willing to debate doubters...etc.  As much as we all like him and respect him...remember this:  Just because he is all of these things is not PROOF that PIPS is legitimate.

I'm truly sorry fellow PIPS members, but if you think that what you have been touting as proof, really IS proof, then I feel sorry for you.  The only two things we really have are HOPE and FAITH.  I have plenty of hope, but I hold my faith in reserve.  Keep in mind that I also remain open-minded and I will watch and wait.  I do NOT profess that PIPS is a scam, nor do I profess that it is legitimate.  I do profess that it is exciting and that I am happy to be a part of it.  Whether I succeed, or PIPS succeeds remains to be seen..Either way, I will be happy to have been on the ride.

Incognitus....why do you care so much about this subject?  I would like to know what drives you.  Are you really a concerned guy out to save us or do you just enjoy the controversy?  Be honest and let us all know.

Wow, you're the most realistic PIPster I've talked to up to this point.

What drives me is simple. I don't like scams, I don't like scammers, and when I spot one I do my best against it. If you knew me from previous postings about the tech bubble, you'd know what drives me as I acted exactly the same back then too.

Thank you for your comment, and yes, I try to be a realist, even if it will make me unpopular with my fellow Pipsters (or anyone).  Were you scammed at some time previously in your life?  Is this where you get your motivation?  I am not trying to gather information to slam you, just trying to understand you.  I do not like scams either, but I do not go around trying to save those who might get into them.  PIPS is my first and only attempt so far at making money from the internet (aside from eBay), so I am sorry to say that I do not know you from previous posts you have made or from previous programs.

No, I wasn't scammed.

But somehow, I've always had a thing against the herd instinct that produces these scams as well as bubbles. And it makes me very nervous that anyone would prey on that herd instinct.

Be aware that sometimes I don't even have anything to gain by exposing these things. I don't stand to gain nothing by warning people about PIPS, and even in stock market bubbles, many of them are not able to be used on the short side cause they're so powerful.

Just because you don't know of them does not mean they don't exist. I not only know of them, I have a monthly income from them, and have had for some considerable time now.

OK maybe not "sure thing", but reliable enough, about 85% of the time.

So it seems that your ignorance of these ventures justifies the terms used against you.

It is my opinion that people should not state things are factual when they are not in possesion of ALL of the facts.

Hasta luego, dego.

Well, there are 14% per week or 100% per month schemes, but they're all tied to illegal activities, such as lending at casinos.

The proof that there aren't any of those schemes available to the big money, is the big money's returns themselves.

One way that PIPS could be sustainable, btw, was to be engaged in some OTHER illegal activity and then not being a ponzi. But I don't believe in that.

What about all the money doublers and triplers out there?  I've seen some sites clearly state that old members are paid with new members' funds.  Have you ever reported them to the authorities?

I happen to know that the ones I am involved with are completely legal. How can you state as a fact that they are not. More speculation on your part.

You know, you would be a whole lot more credible if you stopped reporting things as fact when they come straight off the top of your head.

If you don't know what you are talking about, and it's clear that you don't, quit talking!

BTW in case you haven't noticed, I am not speaking in support of PIPS. I am just questioning your legitimacy as a spokesman on the issue.

Visitante, I focused on the largest one. But you're right, HYIPs, doublers and whatnot are part of an incredible explosion in scams, and they should be treated as a single phenomena.

I figure if people are able to see PIPS for what it is, they'll have even less dificulty seeing the others.

Truth is, these things will never be erradicated, people are just too greedy and believing. I won't write any more articles on PIPS except for a final one when it implodes.

As usual,

only B******T SORRY DUDE BUT THE ROI ON THE GLOBAL AMOUNT PI IS INVESTING IS ONLY 0.075% PER DAY....TO BE ABLE TO PAY 1.9% PER DAY TO ANY MEMBER (INCLUDING INITIAL INVESTMENT).

SO SORRY DUDE BUT I REALY HOPE THIS STORY WILL NOT END JUST LIKE THAT...

EASY TO MAKE YOUR CALCULATION NOW...

To the other visitante, while maybe I'm not the most perfect spokesman for this issue, I do seem to be one of the few available.

Sometimes you have to make compromises. The perfect or the best is not always available.

At least you could address the issues of your stating things as fact when it's clear you are speculating.

You don't know about my private, offline ventures so you label them as illegal, without anything to back it up.

Put up or shut up.

Describe the ventures, and I'll show you how they don't relate to what PIPS can be doing.

Understand that having deals that produce 1000% in a single day does not explain PIPS. It might be hard to, but the only thing that matters to compare to PIPS is the ROE at the end of an entire year, of that same business.

To the excited 0.075% guy, you simply don't know what you are saying, and are implying that 95% of the capital is working with the sole objective of being able to pay 500% to the other 5% of, incredibly enough, third party capital.

That makes no sense at all.

I won't describe them for two reasons:

1) I am bound by strict NCND agreements.

2) It took me many years to nurture the required contacts and I have no intention of giving you, or anyone else, a free ride.

I have never stated that these ventures relate to PIPS in any way. They don't.

I am simply pointing out that you are speaking from a position of ignorance, regarding what is possible and what is not.

I have said more than enough. To those reading this, just be careful who you believe. All that is stated here as fact is supposition, at best.

Adios.

Well, I have facts on my side: the entire Forbes list of the wealthiest people on earth does not benefit from those kinds of returns. The entire list of hedge funds does not benefit from those kinds of returns.

You benefit from them? I'm glad for you. Since you don't disclose them I cannot rebate them and show how PIPS cannot be taking advantadge of them.

That being so, I must remain steadfast in my opinion, as my opinion is the one based on easily verifiable facts.

By the way, I've managed mutual funds and have enough knowledge in finance to know baloney when I see it.

There's no sustainable, low risk 100% per month deals out there that only rich people can get into.

All the huge return deals that exist tend to be one off, and most are not predictable or reliable for long periods of time.

Winning the lotery and saying that it provides a 100000% return does not make it possible for a scheme like PIPS to exist.

Well, I am a pips member been in for some time. I understand the concerns but we all don’t know what is in store. But as members we took the risk correct? So we all are well aware we can lose. Time tells everything:!:

2nd.

You guys have been saying you can’t make returns of 600 or 700 % a year. This is totally incorrect!

I have a friend that’s a manager of a Loaning Agency and they make returns of 480% to 700% a year. Proof! I have seen it and no it’s not a scam! And flip let me tell you do they ever pay taxes!

The ROE on that loaning company is 480% to 700%? Pity that it isn't quoted in the stock market so that we could verify it.

Ahh .. and another thing, companies that have high ROE's trade at a Price to Book premium. Which means that you can't get the high ROE's anyway. You have to pay the higher price.

Why don't you give us your name and mutual fund to prove us what you are saying?

You don't give us any information that make you credible!

Although the PIPSters might have me as "not credible", I have been around for long enough that some people here in Portugal know that I am credible, for instance for what I wrote in the Pararede saga.

I don't need to have any credibility regarding the PIPSters, my arguments do not need me to be credible, they are credible themselves. My name as already been made public, but I want to remain "incognitus" here cause I want to be able to say things that mainstream media usually doesn't say.

so when do you think it will blow up ?
and if it doesn't happend will you as much time as you taking now, to say sorry to bryan ?
All I wand to say Don't shake a "boat"

Anywhere from a few weeks to one year.

It COULD last longer than that if PIPS turns out to convince millions of people for billions of dollars. But that would make it the largest ponzi ever, which is unlikely.

I would apologise to Bryan if he managed to register the PIPS fund with the SEC and he published the auditor's report by a well known firm one could contact. Just those 2 steps would do.

Incognitus...

Can you explain to me how a "criminal" structure like PIPS can distribute Debit Cards, sponsored by MasterCard among their members???

Thank you

Mastercard does not go over the details of the issuing company. As long as there are funds in the bank accounts, that's all Mastercard wants to know. Same goes for Refco serving as their brokers. Or for HSBC serving as their bankers.

BTW, it seems the link that brought you and others here has now been deleted. You should be suspicious of a group of people that are so bent on erasing any dissenting voice, any different opinion.

Is this true? If it is then maybe something is starting to go awfully wrong.

http://forum.pipsinc.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21174



Has anyone who started in PIPS from the old clone system, gotten this message?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: REGULAR MATRIX ACOUNT

Dear PI Members,

This is to inform all the regular members that the 2% INVESTMENT for
regular program has been expired on 29th of OCT 2004. All regular
members
are advise to withdraw the available fund before we take the further
action. There are three options for regular member to make the
withdrawal.
Please follow the instruction below to make the request:-
.
.
.
Since the expired date was on 29th OCT for all members in regular
matrix,
one whole week will given to the members to make a withdrawal of
available
fund. As per the request to transfer the available balance, it have to
be
done before 14th of OCT 2004.

Failure to make the request, the regular account will be deleted without
any further notice.


Thanks and regards,
MALA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is this a mistake, someone in my download received this and thought the program was going under. Since he was in the clone matrix program, this should not affect him. Correct?  
_________________
Greg Nanos

When I met bryan I heard that they were registered with the canadian SEC

Visitante

Registered with Canadian SEC???  Impossible. :D  :D

Oh ok I am not sure... but there way a question raised and he said something about the sec contacting them ... and the sec wanted them to register with them. That’s all I can remember.

(sorry bout last post)

Their Forum is off the air for Housekeeping and upgrade.

I must say that they use for the fórum the same software as Thinkfn: it's PhpBB, an open source project. It needs NO housekeeping and upgrades, it's very stable.

It starts to look as if the scheme is about to end. No support, no fórum, no withdrawals ...

Pipsinc.com

Is still up I am not worried.

Give it time. And stop being so negative. You have made your point. Now time will tell!

For someone who thinks he knows it all, it's simply amazing he doesn't know how to read updates.  They stated the forum would be down for a few hours.  Also, the withdrawal function was enabled earlier today.  Get a clue and a life.

Ernst & Young will publish an audit report early next year.  Just to further humour you and show what a fool you really are, PIPS, PIPS Fashions, PIPS Bistro, Pic Realy, Picpay, and Pic Capital are all registered under the Companies Commission of Malaysia, the equivalent of U.S. SEC.  What does this mean?  THEY ARE LEGALLY REGISTERED IN THE COUNTRY THEY OPERATE BUSINESS.  So will you say the Malaysian govt. supports a Ponzi? ... that's what I thought.

See for yourself.....

http://www.ssm.gov.my/findroc.htm

Note the strict guidelines for registering a business in Malaysia.

Enough said.

Visitante, you can set up companies in any country (have them registered) with no problem.

It's NOT the same as registering with the SEC.

Regular US companies - like those mentioned - do not register themselves with the SEC.

As for the Malaysian goverment supporting a Ponzi - well, I don't really know how their laws handle Ponzis. It's not the same everywhere.

As for Ernst & Young publishing an auditing report on the whole scheme ... THAT will be the day. And mind you, I don't mean E&Y auditing the Bistro. It's PIPS that needs to be audited.

Anyway, I guess the only thing that can convince you is when the thing finally implodes.

It's quite hard for them to be registered with the Canadian SEC, because there's no "Canadian SEC", securities regulators in Canada are regional, there's several of them.

But don't let that stop you.

It really was housekeeping ... PIPS forum lost about 10000 posts or so. I think they removed all doubts, literally ... ehehe.

I'm still keeping my prediction ... a few weeks to a year.

marklv at pips forum wrote:

Just empty speculation. I agree with the comment about poor organization (sorry Bryan but it is true) but everything else seems to be just verbal farting.

There is an obsession with Ponzi schemes in this article that has no relevance to PIPS. I just don't see the analogy. As Ponzi schemes have been tried many times before, why would Bryan risk jail in order to do it again? It makes no sense. Only an idiot would go to all this trouble to run a simple scam.

The fact is that Bryan - unlike Warren Buffet and others - does not deal in shares or derivatives trading alone; there are other, much more sophisticated financial instruments that he uses. As someone else has rightly pointed out, PIPS is unconventional. It relies on huge leverage to raise funds and special high yield trading trading deals with the UN and other supranational organizations. If PIPS was just another mutual fund or hedge fund company it wouldn't make much more than 20-25% a year with extreme risk. As it is, the risk is low and the gain enormous. Why don't other investment gurus like Soros and Buffet get involved? Heck, they either already do (with their own money only) or they don't need to because they already have all the money they need. Can you hide billions? Sure, just use a complex web of offshore companies with nominee directors and you can hide as much as you need.

Last edited by marklv on Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:21 am; edited 1 time in total


Do you have any idea what he is talking about when he mentions trading with the UN and Supranational organizations?

I invested a little. I agree with you about the herd effect. None of the PIPS 10 or 11 Companies are generating enough or any return to support the PIPS Fund growth. In my research I did find a Help Wanted Advertisement where Bryan was seeking out Traders to manage $millions for a 20% cut of the profits There was no date on the Ad and I found it on the Vault web site. So he may be getting a good return if he's using leverage in the FX market. In some of Bryan's dialog and I think it was with you he metions that you don't understand leverage. I'm as baffeled as much as you are about this Supposed Transparent Organization known as PIPS that won't divulge anything about it's finances and investment strategies.   Keep up the good work

If there's someone that doesn't understand leverage, it's not me. I understand it pretty well: leverage increases returns if you're right, and increases losses if you're wrong. And you're not always right.

As for trading with the UN and supranatioal organizations, well, those organizations have access to the regular markets so, unless they were fraudulent themselves, they could get market rates. If they could not get market rates, that would be just because of 1 of the 2 following reasons:
1) They were so risky that the market wouldn't finance them;
2) They were fraudulent.

Neither bodes well for trading with them when the rest of the world doesn't.

The thing about the traders I've already solved. If they were so good they'd be at hedge funds or have hedge funds themselves, or just manage their own money.  You could get good traders, but you wouldn't outperform every hedge fund on earth by 450% per year with low risk. Not possible.

Besides, you see the truth: the companies can't be generating the cash - yet Bryan says onlçy 2% of the cash comes from trading ... so ...

Look, there are no miracles in finance. It's easy to shoot down every argument that's made about how these returns are produced cause there's no miracles in finance. In the end, only one explanation remains: it's a ponzi.

Another explanation would be possible, but I don't think it has merit: it's dirty money getting cleaned. One of the reasons I don't think it has merit is funny: it would simply be TOO EXPENSIVE to clean it this way. You must laugh at that.

Someone go tell the nitwits at the PIPS Forum that not every link towards the articles here, or every negative comment there is made by me. I've been banned long ago, and I only went posting there with one other id afterwards, which has also been banned already. I probably won't be posting there again ... no patience.

When it happen. Uhh.... Nova is crumb comparing with this one

Any estimate on how many people and money Nova Lights took in before imploding? And for how long it lasted?

I figure that it has to last until after the convention in Hawaii. Hope I get my money back by then.

Maybe, but weren't you drawing a parallel to Nova Lights? I think that Nova Lights also had an upcoming convention and didn't last until it...

Whoknows exact figures? I am sure - nobody. Mu guess - not less than 20M. Some people said 50M,80 or even 100M.

Nova lasted 19.5 months.

Yep, good figures are hard to come by. The Nova Lights author was captured, was he not?

Yes he was. He lives in state of Arizona. Don't know his current status.

Just a quick note on Nova Lights.  I invested and lost in that U.S. based non-licensed program.  I know all about it and the case is pending in the state of AZ.  There is no comparison between Nova and PIPS.  I could list so many differences here it's not even funny.  For one thing, Nova was NEVER going to hold any type of "convention".

I could go on, but it's not worth my time.

Seems to me a lot of the investors in these HYIPs are veterans from former HYIPs.

I got the "convention" info from another NL veteran. Dunno if it's true or not, cause I never studied the NL episode.

But PIPS even if "better" than NL, it's still no different and the end will be the same.

This is not to be mean, but someone should tell Bryan to fire the current production team for that bible for kids project, it seems like something done by amateurs 5-10 years ago.

If they're really serious, they should hire someone like http://www.turboforce3d.com/

The idea behind the series seems good enough. But the production, if it is to be serious, REALLY needs to be done by professionals.

^^^ LMAO

PIPS DID hire professional filmakers/producers nimrod.  Try listening to the convention and find the details yourself.

Ahhh...my friend, I was an amateur doing that kind of sheet 10 years ago with was just 3d Studio or whatever. We're now on 3d Studio Max 7.

I know amateurish work when I see it, even though I only did a couple of things AS AN AMATEUR.

Check PIPS site, the Gallery, and then check the link I gave you. You'll see the difference. I am not asking you to trust me, I'm asking you to trust your eyes.

Besides, I wrote the last post as HELP, I did start it like "This is not to be mean". I really didn't want to be mean. If they are going to spend money in that project, let it be handled by pros. Like I also said, I liked the general idea of a bible for children even though I'm agnostic. I think it would sell. If done properly.

An excelent post in scam.com ...

This is funny:

babeluba
NewBies



Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1

 Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:10 am    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I have an SS that goes for 10 years (Norwegian), and after this time my withdrawals are an 18 digit amount (USD $308 767 355 741 456 000,00
). I don't even know what to call this number...  
 
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Incognitus,

I read his posts and I can tell you he's not very attentive.  For instance, he said, " Look at their Premier $1 million plan. They "guarantee" not just 2% per trading day, but 3% per trading day, and for 5 years."

I don't even have to bother with the rest of his post.  That one statement shows his ignorance of the facts.

I have been following this debate with much interest.

Someone posted a link to the Malaysian SEC site. I went into it and yes I found that a number of PIPs companies were registed there.

I do not know a lot a the finacial markets but do relaize that it is probably a simple matter to register a company and the fact that it is registered does not neccesarily imply that they are profitable and doing the right thing.

I found a link on that site entitled "Services" and apparently you can go into their offices and do counter searches on any company registed there.

On the list of things you can search for are some of the following

Particulars of Directors, Managers and Secretaries
Objects of the Company
Incorporation/ registration Particulars
and most interesting Balance Sheet and P and L Account

I f someone following this forum lives in Malaysia or is visiting there could they go into the offices and do a counter search particulaly for the Balance Sheet and P and L.  

I know in Australia you can go into the ASIC website pay a fee and get a copy of any Annual Returns that have been lodged ( I don't know if that is for only publically listed companies but I did find out info on a private company once- perhaps they had to sign a privacy waiver, don't know)

It might be worth a shot and if we had this info I think it would provide some concrete info to this debate instead of the speculation.

If anyone has any info on what info you can get about a private company from the Malasian SEC could you please post it.

Thanks

This is not true at all.  The mods (Karin Hernandez, Neo, Awty) and the criminal admin (William Louden) for Nova Lights were planning to have a convention in Phoenix, Arizona in February 2004. But then they backed out when it was decided it would bring too much attention from Feds such as SEC...

Visitante, most knowledgeable people see PIPS for what it is, a Ponzi, right away. They don't bother with the detail you pointed out (the returns are not insured, supposedly only capital and earned interest is). You should be more worried, though, cause that product is being sold as insured (capital plus interest earned) when it isn't. And Bryan has stated a few times Allianz was insuring it when it isn't.

Betty, I contacted the Malaysian securities regulator and they didn't seem to know the thing existed but they'll look into it.

betty, I see your confusion ... the link you saw was to a company registery. You can incorporate companies at will, that doesn't prove they're legit, it just proves they've been incorporated.

It's a whole different thing to register some investment vehicle with the SEC, and supposedly with any securities regulator (though some will be more sloppy than others).

Just did a further update on the unofficial FAQ, because of this "register" misconception that's going around.

Understood that all businesses has risks, but as for Pureinvestor, the risk is only 4-5 months. After the 5th months, all smart and careful Pipsters probably already had their initial capital returned and the remaining daily 2% accumulative is just PURE profit. What's there got to LOSE in taking a short term risk?
Moreover, since the program started, non of the Pipsters complained that they did not receive money as requested through Picpay withdrawal for the past 18 months and most of them are from the Golden Womb Day, which started as Pyramid Scheme. If not for Bryan to turn around of what's left over of their remaining money into the 2% program, all these pioneer Pipsters could have lost all of their monies instead of becoming a rich pipsters now. Is this what you called PIPS, "SCAM."
And same goes for the 1Mil$ PIPS SECURE Plan. The risk is less than 2 months with 3% daily. The difference i know is that the 1Mil$ program cannot be registered online. Signup and withdrawal of any monies will have to be made in one of the appointed banker in Singapore.
My ignorant question is, "Do SCAM companies involves 3rd parties like Banks /Government Authorities in operating their businesses?"
And with your ultimate professional search and advises on SCAM, you did mentioned that PIPS (already existed 2 years) will be gone in another year or maybe earlier. What IF PIPS is still around by then.
Please do enlighten me.

I've got easy answers to all those questions ...

1) Regarding the short term risk, you didn't fully grasp the concept of a Ponzi scheme. In such schemes, the number of people losing is much, much greater than the number of people winning, and the money lost by participants is more than the money gained by participants (because there are leaks to the organization). As such, the "time at risk" is an irrelevant concept. Also, Time, under Ponzi schemes, is also compressed: the longer they last, the less likely they are to last longer (because of the need for an exponential number of entrants, arising from the exponential nature of the interest paid and members taken it).

2) Regarding no one having lost money, you should have read the articles with enough attention. Nobody loses money in a Ponzi scheme UNTIL it implodes. When it implodes, everyone that didn't take as much as he put in, loses money. It's a one time event. And like I said in 1), when that happens much more people lose than win, and the total value lost by the losers is more than the total value gained by the winners.

3) The GOlden Womb program starting as a pyramid should, in itself, lend even more credibility to my opinion: the authors have done it at least once, and for it not to be twice, it has to be something unique. Do you really think it's something unique? (it can't be, it's impossible. This is not inside the box thinking, it's reality, it's mathmatically impossible).

4) Regarding the "secure"/insured program, you are assuming that it really is secured/insured. That assumption is wrong. If the PIPS program turns out a fraud, every other program will be a fraud too, and the promises about insurance/securing principal will turn out to be fraudulent too. Besides, you already know that the 5YIP is being sold as insured while it is not. Bryan said Allianz insured it and they did not.

5) Regarding PIPS involving Banks and Goverment authorities, the answer is simple: Companies CAN be set up to in any country without much scrutiny as to their activities. As such, the Malaysian government did not sanction PIPS operating there. They simply don't KNOW what PIPS is doing (though they might come to know in a short time). PIPS and other PI companies were simply incorporated, they received no specific license from any securities regulator to do wath they are doing (the often mentioned license refers only to setting up a fund, and is not issued by a securities regulator). As for banks, Banks do business with people that open accounts. Sometimes they might turn suspicious, sometimes they don't, but they established no out-of-the-ordinary partnership with PIPS. Indeed, the latest problems with CC's seem to be a NEGATIVE attitude by banks and clearance houses towards PIPS.

6) Finally, what if it lasts more than a year. I'll hand it to you here, my OPINION is that it lasts anywhere from a few weeks to a year. IF it lasts more than a year, it STILL is a fraud, but it will have become the largest Ponzi in Earth's history. That's very, very unlikely, but come to think of it, SOMEONE has to set records, right?

I've pointed 2 easy ways for PIPS to show it's not a fraud: register the investment vehicle with the SEC, and have a well known auditor go over the investment's books and post the report. That is not going to happen (even though there are promises regarding Ernst & Young, they'll never materialize). If and when the auditor's report comes out, one would simply have to call the auditor and ask if the report is real.

"Facts", in PIPS, increasingly seem to be the same as "Bryan said".

Go to http://www.fool.com and search for Pure Investor...although there are no articles on it...why would they allow a ponzi to advertise with them? You will see them listed under Sposored Links when you do the search. If it does not pop up press search again  a few times to see if it does.

You can buy sponsored links/ads and no scrutiny is made of your company, whatsoever. Anyone can buy them, as long as they pay.

Btw, I was curious as to whom you are (I know back at the PIPS forum they all think you're me). Are you portuguese?

(not likely or you'd use the portuguese Fórum, of course ...)

By looking at the PIPS forum and all the trouble there, I'd say my "weeks" estimate might be closer to the truth than my "1 year" estimate.

I'll bet you they are around longer than that. You only have speculation on this. How can you compare other companies to PIPS. It does not make sense what you say. All the companies you are trying to compare to are actual investment companies with stocks, bonds, mutual funds. PIPS is not an investment company. The very backbone of the company is in real estate which is very lucrative if done properly...look at Trump.

Thanks, Incognitus for clearing up that confusion relating to licensing with SEC.

On the Pips forum whnever there is a debate of this kind, Admin always says that you can go into the offices and ask for documentation.

Has anyone gone to the offices and asked to see any finacial records. I don't mean  something that is prepared by PIps as you can create anything you want, but something official.

I assume and again I don't know a lot about world finance that if you have been in business since 2002 as PIPs say they have been albiet in a different form you would have to lodge tax returns or the like according to the regulations of the country you operate in. Has anyone seen any form of dcumentaion like this. If so could you let us know.

You poor misguided self-rightous soul. You have way too much time on your hands or you need a new line of attention. I must first say I am a PIPS member.

That being said, you could better spend your time going after a true ponzi scheme I unfortunately am a member of....the United States Social Security System. It began with (numbers approximate) 28 people supporting one person. Then dropped to about 16 to 1 then 8-1 and now is about 4 to 1. Sadly, U.S. citizens are enslaved by this gov't system. Rail against it and incite the poor citizenery to rise up and turn on it...disolve it and be better off. Or you might take a shot at legalized gambling, which by all accounts, takes advantage of the worlds poor and disenfranchised. Walk through the casino door and you have no chance of long term gain, period. You will lose your money.

Join PIPS, and first caveat advertised is..."Don't invest money you CAN NOT AFFORD to Lose!" This should be a sign to everyone that you are entering risky terrain. A notice that you may infact lose all of your money. So if you are a little old man or woman, whom you seem to purport to care about....They should be smart enough to understand what that means, and not risk their life savings. Nor should anyone else.

The 2% program is NOT Guaranteed. It will be paid daily as long as the funds are available to be paid. When they aren't, then 2% will not be paid. As for the simulator being a guarantor of the 2%, it is only intended to show what the numbers would be based on one ASSUMPTION...and that is the fund does well enough to pay 2% daily.

The 3% 1 million dollar fund, needs no defending. Anybody who has been smart enough to have an extra million to invest in a fund like this, should certainly be savy enough to investigate the situation long before writing out a check. I don't think they need you and your white horse trying to save them from that dastardly Bryan.

Comparing what W. Buffett does with PIPS is ridiculous. As is comparing what I do with that of Mr. Buffett. When we join PIPS, we are taking money that WE, Not you, can afford to throw away with the full knowledge that we may infact never see it again. But it is fun and exciting to watch the figures grow and converse with like minded people. If it works out, it is about the only chance a small guy has a chance to become like Mr. Buffett. If it fails, it was worth $450 to me to make new friends and have fun and exciting dreams. It's not just about the money. It's an adventure..a gamble...a chance to live wild and be carefree with some money.
But being an anal rententive self-rightous crusader, you don't seem to possess a wild carefree bent to your personality. Rise everyday and climb into your armor, mount your majestic steed and ride into the sunrise and save those people that need saving. Leave the crazy, fun, carfeee world to those of us who can afford to toss money out the window to us, we don't need your rightous indignation or alarm bell ringing.

Please fight the good fight for those who need and want you. PIPS members and future members are adults and are free to do with their money as they see fit.

Good luck to you mighty warrior.

Bigwally

Incognitus, as the saying goes, "SELF PRAISE IS MONKEY PRAISE."

WHY?????

Cos' what you have written here are just speculation without concrete proof that PIPS is 100% SCAM company by emphasizing the word's, "IF" in your statement.

1) Regarding the short term risk, .........................

By now in PIPS, many pioneer Pipsters are being paid more than 5,000$ to 10,000$ per trading day. The biggest payout check is 140,000$ as reported by the CEO, Bryan.
Base on your mathematical calculation, "How many confirmed new members with a min. $450 fully funded payment required to pay out this amount?"
Moreover, new members also have the option to register without having to pay CASH directly to Pureinvestor by utilising the Trusted transfer of Available Fund in the PICpay System.
Then, where do PI gets this regular  big amount of money to pay the Withdrawal of what will be received from unexpected new members with a minimun investment of $450 for the past 18 months.
Bryan also did stated that, PI do not need an immediate exponential number of entrants to sustain PI growth. He preferred a constant stream of gradual and steady growth of new members so as the current PI Staff can cope effectively.
And currently, more improvement upgrading works on IT new data centre just completed for Faster and Easier accessiblity in retrieving Information. Is there any logic for Scam company to spend Mil$ just on IT works to enhance the services after much complaints by impatient Pipsters.
At this moment, there seen to be more Gainers than yet to be any Loser since PI started the program back in 2002.

The word's, "IF" as shown in your statement tell me that you are NOT on the 100% SURE whether PIPS is PONZI /SCAM.

4)..........IF the PIPS program turns out a fraud, every other program will be a fraud too, and the promises about insurance/securing principal will turn out to be fraudulent too

6)..........IF it lasts more than a year, it STILL is a fraud, but it will have become the largest Ponzi in Earth's history. That's very, very unlikely, but come to think of it, SOMEONE has to set records, right?



No offense to you......,but proof further in convincing me that PIPS is PONZI /SCAM without emphasizing the word's, "IF".

Wundering, Trump went bankrupt.

betty, for sure they (PI) filed accounting statments. But that doesn't mean the accounting statments will be consistent with what you see publicized, and more, even if it consistent, it doesn't mean it's true. Only an auditors report by a well known firm that has more to lose than to gain if it lies, would ever make those accounts believable.

Besides, you can easily publicize the accounts through the internet. They do everything through the internet EXCEPT that small step. It doesn't make sense.

bigwally, all fine and dandy, except that scheme is a fraud, and it deserves to be fought for the fraud it is.

You don't seem to make the connection that, for you to make money, at some point someone is going to lose his. It's not an investment, it's a scam perpetuated by those that created it and those that promote it and defend it ... like you.

Also, bigwally, I too am against the SS scheme as it stants. It should be done through a capitalized fund. But you know, it's not a current problem, and future problems do not worry current politicians.

Visitante, I am 100% sure PIPS is a scam, a ponzi scheme, but with the publicly available information it's impossible to say exactly WHEN it blows up. Only Bryan can know that, and he ain't telling.

The explanations in the PIPS forum never stop, now they are wrongly comparing PIPS to a stock and saying it comes out of revenues, etc, etc. Baloney, 1) there ain't enough revenues; 2) PIPS would be an exponentially growing expense anyway. Etc, etc. There's a 0 chance PIPS is legit, and the illegal ways to make it work (trading in drugs, weapons, etc) don't make sense cause PIPS would simply be too expensive as a money launderer.

Incognitus,

I'm 100% sure you're a jackass.  I'm also 100% sure you are wrong, and PIPS is legit.

LMAOATWTTB

You're also 100% wrong.

One other thing, are you so badly educated you can't refrain from insulting other people? Oh well. I guess it's normal, only stupid people can really think PIPS is 100% legit and have no doubts.

WHOA, WHOA, WHOA,............ my friend Incognitus, you keep biting your figure nail insisting PIPS is 100% Illegal /Scam /Ponzi without reasonable proof.

And now, you SCARRRRING us in accussing PUREINVESTOR involvment in nation worst crimes trading in DRUGS, WEAPONS, etc in order to be able pay us Pipsters for the past 18 months since 2% Program started.

Is that what you really meant (DRUGS AND WEAPONS????????). Why then, authorities all over the world (especially the U.S Government) did NOT hunt down Bryan & Sharon on the ground they landed, openly having CONVENTIONS in the current US /CANADA TOUR.

I can tell YOU, your statement is gravely inappropriate and i would not raise another question for your most STUPID answer.

You are just bluddering without reasonable proof. Get out of this forum and get a life out there. And you are most welcomed to join us Pipsters for a fun ride in the Pips Wonderland.

Maybe you should read what I wrote AGAIN. I stated the precise OPPOSITE of what you said.

I stated that about the only way to make PIPS last would be to engage in those activities, but I think that there's 0 (ZERO) chance of that being true, because as it stands, PIPS would be TOO EXPENSIVE as a money laundering scheme.

It's laughable. PIPS is so impossible that not even money launderers would consider it.

Another very good post on scams.com by flightdocone:

True ..Trump did go thru bankrupcty..but where is he now?...hmmmm..let us see..oh look..an article on him ..my my my..I guess he is still rich after all http://www.askmen.com/men/business_politics/38_donald_trump.html

I think you need to research the real estate market more. It's funny that your only comment was that Trump went bankrupt yet never acknowledged the fact that real estate.if done properly ...can bring in alot of money. Think about it. Buying up foreclosed or going to be foreclosed houses or business properties....coming in buying them up cheap then leasing them out to have residual income coming in every month.

Well, I have no doubt that when pips implodes Bryan will be rich too. So what is your point?

I'm still trying to figure out your points. Seems you don't understand business models and structures of business.

Well, actually I do understand businesses and their structure. And Real Estate CAN be a nice business, you're right. But it can't be a nice 2% per day business, that I'll tell you.

Besides, Real Estate involves heavy payments/expenses upfront and only generates real money at the rear end of the deal. Because of that, it can't account for the money that's supposedly being made in PIPS, either.

The full 2% isn't made fully by real estate..but I bet a good size chunk of it is. Let's break down the expenses to find out where the heavy payments you are talking about are.

Normally you have a mortgage..but thats elimnated because he's using cash..mainly some of our money thats in the 2% program.

Closing costs and taxes are a norm...but usually pretty small compared to the cost of the property.

Yearly property tax (depending on area and if they apply)

Insurance for property
 
Electric,gas,water, phone..all turned off so no extra bills coming in.

Possible maintenance of the properties like painting before leasing out. Any once in a while repairs.

So we have a one time closing cost and sales tax. Then insurance property taxes to worry about. Most of the time its a once a year payment for each. It really depends on area for the property tax and cost to insure. If going into the right areas it would usually be pretty low.

The ones PI concentrates on are people going into foreclosure but not yet there. Basically helping them out by negotaiting with the bank a lower buy out cost for PI then leasing the property back to the person. So the original maintenance like painting and getting it ready is kind of out of the way. You also have other ventures they are into like buying out shopping strips from owners in same situation of close to foreclosure.

Then we income from picpay. Charging a fee to transfer money in and out of their payment gateway. So we have another small chunk of money being contibuted to the 2%. There is also a small fee for being in PIPS so another small contribution to the program.

The big money in RE is not in those situations. It's in getting permits, building and selling.

You are forgetting it is residual income... I do belive they are into development to but I really haven't seen the info on any development projects they are doing yet. Although the PIPS Bistro is a start. In development it will take a while to get that money back because of the building time to the end sale will take a while. So the in between time you have money coming in still from your leases and so forth.

Visitante, you're talking about some low margin businesses paying a 2% return per day on their capital. It's not gonna happen.

The Bistro is consuming money, not earning it. And even if it was earnings it, come on, the PIPS 2% funds need to generate more than $6 million per day ...

Here is one of the points you are missing...They don't need to earn that full 2% per day on all their capital..remember 60% of of it is their own money..and 40% is the loaned money..so they need to earn less than 1% per day to pay back the loans. I am sure they have plenty of properties under their belt to contrubute to it. As well as money being made from other sources such as picpay, PIPS membership, and a very small amount of trading.

So you are telling me the real money is in building and selling of the properties but then tell me the PIPS Bistro is consuming money....So would building a property...it would take alot of money going out before seeing it come back in when its finally all built and sold.

You seem to be hung up on the fact that no one business can generate that money. What you are failing to see is multiple companies together generating the money as well as future companies that will start earning more money so it can keep paying more and more money out while people are compounding their money.

You will get your proof in around 2 years. They will have an IPO on the Hong Kong exchange from what I have read. I alread have a feeling on what your response is so it's useless to argue how they earn the money with you.

Visitante, I've already explained that one and why it makes no sense: it assumes the entire capital of a company is being dedicated to pay the returns of a very small portion of money contributed by the members, and furthermore, that small portion could be had at 8-10% instead of 500%.

That explanation carries no logic and furthers my argument that it's a fraud.

What I said about properties AND the bistro makes sense. Yes, properties and the bistro could earn money in the future - but they are NOT earning it now and yet PIPS behaves as if they are (including Bryan saying that only 2% of the PIPS returns come from trading).

That furthers my argument ...

Hi.

I am a PIP member and I agree with Incognitus.  I do not believe PIPS can last.  The numbers get two big after 3 or 4 years.  There is no way PIPS will be able to generate enough income to pay members at that time.

I consider my "investment" a gamble.  I hope to be able to withdraw my initial investment out and maybe even make a small profit before they fall.

But I may have waited too long.  Over the past 6 weeks members have had a lot of problem receiving payments.   Although the payments seem to still be coming,  PIPS is having trouble.  

Hopefully, I have not waited too long.  I hope I can at least still withdraw my initial investment.  If not I understood the risk when I gave them my money and I will not complain because I have always seen it as a gamble not an investment.

I have place my bet.
Lucky or maybe Unlucky

Okej, so I've read this through...

Would you say it would be possible to make 30% per year, incognitus?

30% has been achieved by a few gurus over decades, yes. But even those gurus say it's not sustainable at that rate.

And indeed, it isn't. If anyone continued growing at 30% at some point in the future he'd be larger than the entire economy.

But to answer the question. It's possible over long stretches and depends on how much money you are applying in it. It's harder with billions than with millions. It's kinda easy with thousands.

Okej, thanks for your quick answer.

Next one would of course be how long do you think a company can grow 30% per year, Incognitus?

I'm very well aware that nothing stays for ever. Civilizations comes and goes and the earth will one day seas to be so...

By selling something people want at a good margin to an increasing number of people.

Now, the problem with PIPS, is that PIPS is growing and paying like it's growing even before the underlying companies grow, which shows it's all a fraud.

Unless, of course, you're somehow willing to believe that the underlying companies have already produced something like $500mn in free cash flow. Do you believe in that?

I will answer your questions in due time. Please let me finnish and just answer my second question

30%, depending on starting capital, 30-35 years or so.

30-35 years?
With an gain of 30% each and every year, not missing one?

I would say 5-10 years...

Nope. It's possible, though highly unlikely, for it to last 30-35 years.

But you are already missing a point. That would be average growth. NO business will have a 30% straight line growth over such an horizon.

PIPS is also stupid in that regard, not only do they promise impossible returns, they promise them with an impossible volatility as well (0).

Ah, that make more sence...
I also thought 30.35 years to be much...

Allow me refrase my question... How long can a company grow a minmum of 30% per year?

I don't know the answer. Though there might be statistical studies on that. And of course, quite a few companies have sustained runs of 5 or more years like that.

I have to go ... make your point, I'll answer tomorrow.

So, we can agree that it is quite feasable for a company to grow 30% per year the first 5 years?

Okej, will continue tomorrow

God night

No. While its is POSSIBLE, it is also UNLIKELY. And since it is UNLIKELY, it can't be PREDICTED well.

What I fail to understand is why PIPs just doesn't bring that promised audit forward. ( well perhaps I do...)

It would put a stop one way or another to these endless debates and what a great marketing tool they would have. A HYIP with auditored reports posted on the internet. I should image it would be a first and people would be clamering to sign up.

Bryan would not have to fly half way aroung the world speaking at endless dinners and meeetings which surely would be a bit taxing after a while. A lot cheaper to have an audit done.

I have put the minimum amount into PIPs and treat it as a bit of a gamble but surely those people who are supposedly putting in 10s of thousands of dollars would have flown up to Malaysia with an accountant in tow to do a thorough check of the finacial satus of the company. I know I would if I was investing that kind of money. Yet we never hear from them.

And when any poor soul posts a legitamte request for information on the forum he is blown away. They are not slamming PIPs just asking for information.

With regard to the  5 year plan surely if they offer death and disabilty cover wouldn't you have to have some documentation in case you wanted to claim. At this point we do not even know who the insurer is even though people have already signed up.

There seems to be a lot of questions and no quantifiable answers.

To those who say that everybody should do their own dd, that is true and everyone is responsible for their own actions but there are people out there who get carried away with the thought of high returns and debates like this are important as it may make them think twice about investing more than they can afford to lose.

I heard of one fellow who put an extra mortgage over his house, against all advice, to put a large sum in another scheme (not PIPs) only to have that scheme fall over in a few months taking all his money with it. Stupid I know, but it just points out the need for free and open debate about HYIPs.

I sincerly hope that PIPs is legitamte and is just suffering growing pains but the more you think logically about it the stranger it seems. Perhaps I just don't have the vision to think "outside the box".

+ 1 900 % en 6 mois Yes possible !!

http://capital.fr/contenu_editorial/pages/trophee/portraits/portrait_duport.php

 :lol:   max 22%  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

whatif

Let me tell you something my Friend:

1. I am number 1 Recruiter in the world for Giicorp, http://www.giiglobal.com
2. I am an Accountant
3. I run my own Mortgage Company in Australia
4. I have my Own Property development company in Australia
5. I am a Daytrader

And I run another 3 companies.and have been in Business for 20 years. SO I know My Shit. When I invest or Take anything on, i make sure I know everything about the company even the Colour of the Directors Underpants, thats how detailed my Due Diligence is

I have made every possible mistake you can imagine in Business to get where I am todayand I know what to look for if somethning is a SCAM

I have gone thru PIPs with a fine tooth comb, Because I KNOW when something is for Real and

Let Me tell you PIPS IS THE REAL THING

IT TAKES ALOT TO BLOW ME AWAY, BUT PIPS HAS DEFINETLY BLOWN ME AWAY AND LIKE I SAID

PIPS WOULD HAVE TO BE ONE OF THE GREATEST OPPORTUNITIES OF ALL TIME.

WINNERS ARE GRINNERS    

BASHERS/TROLLS LIKE YOU ARE LOSERS!!!


PS. I SUGGEST ALL THE BASHERSTROLLS WHO HAVE RECENTLY COME TO THE FORUM, USE YOUR BRAINS , JOIN PIPS , MAKE A SHIT LOAD OF MONEY AND START PROMOTING PIPS, I GUARANTEE IF YOU DONT YOU WILL REGRET IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Incognitus, any comment on the above Pipster testimonials???????

Incognitus /Pipmania, appreciated you spend so much times in reporting to Newspapers, Magazine, FBI, SEC,........etc. 1) May i ask you to give us the reasons for NOT accepting Bryan open invitation to have a face to face dialoge with him in his malaysia office or attending anyone of his convention? 2) Why didn't authorities crack down Pureinvestor for running their businesses as you always have said,  "It's illegal, scam and Ponzi scheme.", despite Bryan and Sharon landed and travelled freely with their so called criminal activities on the U.S soil.

Visitante, I am not whatif.

That post was moving, but it did contain a huge hole in it. If the guy is such a well informed investor, with companies and all, how would he believe that scam without at least an auditor's opinion? I mean, the scam is preaching impossible returns, and you don't at least try to have the opinion of someone that has seen the books?

It makes me think that in his investing he doesn't look at the company filings either, but I find it odd that him being a business owner, he wouldn't look at his own accounting.

Visitante, the authorities are not "all seeing". 170k people all over the world simply isn't that visible unless someone points out the scam.

Remember, not a single PIPSter complains while the funds keep coming. Ponzis usually attract the authorities' attention when they implode and the complaints come, not before.

As for accepting Bryan's invitation. Exposing this kind of thing doesn't pay anything. Do you think I would go to the further waste of time and money to expose it further? I mean, he's running an online business, he can publish the books and the auditor's opinion like every other fund out there, like every other company out there, and It would be me that would have to go around the world to meet the guy? I don't need to meet the guy, what I need is numbers and a telephone number to confirm them.

Incognitus,

What you really need to do is get a life.  PIPS is a PRIVATE company and in NO WAY has to publish ANY kind of financial/audit report or prospectus online.  There are no guarantees in PIPS and no one is forced to join.

Visitante, the thing is a scam, and although no one is forced to join, the most uninformed, most needy people will tend to join, because of the hope that $475 might change their lives.

You will see mothers putting that money into PIPS instead of buying toys for their children, you will see retirees putting their funds into PIPS, you will see heads of families taking new mortgages to sink into PIPS in hopes of sudden riches.

And then it all implodes. In similar schemes, like FLO, there seems to be talk of suicides and all.

There's a reason why Ponzi schemes are illegal.

By the way, are they still paying? It seems there are withdrawals older than a month already. People really believe those guys, it's incredible. 10-15 days with continuous IT trouble, weeks to get withdrawals ... usually these kinds of signs would happen right before the final implosion.

Good Morning, Incognitus
I see you are already busy...  :lol:

Okej, for you to spot my posts I will call myself "E"...


The main reason for a company to go bankrupt is that it grows to fast. I believe Incognitus will back me up on this...

Now, where were we...?

Unlikely, you say?
Is it not true that a company that survivse the first two years has a very good chance of staying another 10+? Is it not the first two years that are most critical?

So, I believe we can agree on this now:
IF a company survives the first two years it is very likely it could continue growing with a minimum of 30% per year for another 3 years

Note, I'm not saying this is PI. These are just hypotheses...

/Mr. E

E, the main reason companies go BK are liquidity crisis, often arising from lack of business or unprofitable business. "Growing too fast" is usually not the reason, unless the huge growth is also unprofitable.

Even if I agree that a company that lasts more than 2 years will tend to last a lot more, the following statment is not true, meaning a company that lasts more than 2 years is very likely to keep on growing more than 30% a year. It isn't. If that were true, and taking into account that most companies alive are more than 2 years old, the whole economy would have to grow close to 30%, and it grows at 4-8% (nominal) instead.

Also, E, I know you're not talking about E. But do take into account that IF you were talking about PI, 30% wouldn't cut it. They pay their "lenders" (PIPS holders) more than 500% per year, and it compounds. Any growth below 500% per year would inevitably lead to bankrupcy sooner or later (this would not be true in a regular company where the loans don't compound).

Ok, then we have different oppinions here, allthough what you stated comes into what I just wrote. If a company grows to fast then the outcome would be a shortess of capital...  :wink:
This usually happens to new companies, that has a good idea but the profits might take to long to come into the company. They tend to run before they've learned to walk. Expanding is usually a costly thing and if a company is expanding to quickly, liquidity crisis is bound to follow...



Of course not. I said that it is not impossible.



/Mr. E

Before the "it could", you placed a "it's very likely". It is NOT very likely.

If a company has profitable growth, there's no lack of funds to keep it going. The world is awash in liquidity. That's another reason to doubt PIPS claims. If their companies are so profitable they can pay 500% interest, then surely enough there are hundreds of banks willing to finance them at 10%.

You mean it is allmost impossible to grow 30% per year?

/Mr. E

1) Couldn't be the authorities are not 'all seeing', with PIPS Conventions touring openly across Europe, US /Canada and soon to be in Australia. And you have repeatedly said that you have reported the PureInvestor Scam /Ponzi to the authorities concerned (SEC, FBI...ETC.) for further action.

2) In recent PIPS forum, a small fraction of Pipsters start complaining the payments are slow, this and other matters are being raised.
Why didn't the authorities concerned noticed it? The forum is always open to the public for viewings and comments.

And as for the original case of Charles k. Ponzi, he was arrested (BEFORE his scheme imploded) by authorities forbidding investors further deposite of money into his company.

3) My sixth sense tell me that you will NEVER get to the BOTTOM of PI until you have the chance to meet up with Bryan. That's the reason  'Convention' is neccessary for Pipsters to meet occasionally in assurance that PIPS is a Real deal.

I maybe gravely wrong about it, IF PureInvestor shut down in the next few weeks as what you may have predicted, I 'll be a "DEAD ROASTED DUCK", then. AND, IF NOT........................................ :D  :D  :D

Good Luck and thank for your precious times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1) The reports to the authorities were made only recently, and those authorities are notoriously slow;

2) The PIPsters are starting to complain in the forum, not to the authorities.

Ponzis's scheme imploded after it was exposed by a large circulation newspaper. Authorities are also act much faster if it's out in the papers.

3) Conventions add nothing, and meeting Bryan adds nothing either. Nothing beats an auditors' report by a large firm (and then you'd call the firm to ask if they really did it).


My prediction is for several weeks to one year, I acknowledge it could (but is not likely) to last more than a year. At the same time, the recent troubles seem to point more towards the short end of the prediction than the long end. Hope that clears up the prediction.

Okej, lets continue, since neither you nor me knows the liklyhood for a company to make 30% per year... I myself made 20% per month with one of my companies (until I was foolish to lay it down and start another one...) so I figured 30% per year wouldn't be so hard, especially if you've managed to survive the first two years.

New question, in which I have no clue, when does it start to be hard to make money? I'm now talking about stock-market-business of all kinds (including Forex). Is it with a capital of $1M, $10M, $100M, $1G, $10G, $100G, $1T, ...?

What I'm looking for here is an answer for how much money will it take before you start to have problems investing it. There must be at some point, logically thinking...

/Mr. E

Shouldn't be clear cut, but anything above $10mn probably starts to be much harder to grow at incredible rates.

And even below $10mn, while it's possible to grow at incredible rates, you never have the CERTAINTY that you'll be able to do it, and hence you can't pay any fixed dividend, see?

Hmm...
So, over $10.000.000 it starts to be hard to make 30%, i.e $3.000.000, in a year... Did I understand you correctly?

/Mr. E

The discussion about 30% is pointless,  can you make your point?

I'm trying to figure out at what point it start to be hard to make 30% gain per year on capital. I have no clue since I've never had that kinda money...  :(

/Mr. E

30% is always hard, for the simple reason that on average the market returns much less than 30%, meaning the players that actually get 30% are very few compared to those that try.

Having less money does make it easier to get the 30%. At some point, having too much money makes it harder, but it's still a pointless discussion, in that making the consistent 30% is already hard no matter what money you start with (decent amounts, of course, doubling $1 is kinda easy).

So it's easier for 1.000.000 people to double $1 than it is for one person to double $1.000.000...

Conclusion of this would be to hyer alot of traders and give them a smaller capital each to "play" with. Am I correct?
In a way divertyfying your capital... Not to have all eggs in one basket...
Meaning it would be better for a company to have 10 traders with $100.000 to inveset rather than having one investing $1.000.000

/Mr. E

The $1 was extreme. If one does as you said, one ends up with market returns.

Diversification makes large returns harder to come by, even if it reduces the risk.

What do you define as large returns? 3% per month?

/Mr. E

What's a normal return on a month (in avarge)?

3% per month is a huge return (42.5%/y).

If you are talking low risk, a GOOD return would be around 1% per month compounded (12-13% per year). There are some funds managing that, using arbitrage techniques, etc. Bear in mind that these returns, even if low risk, would not be set when you entered the fund. It's what is realistic you might get, but it's not cast in stone.

A bank would be hard pressed to give you anything above 0.5% per month compounded.

Okej, so one could in avarage expect to make 1% per month (if not going to the bank where you'd get half or even less...)?

In other words I'm lucky to have found GII who has been paying me an avarage of 5%+ per month these last 22 months... heh  :) (stock today worth $5, started at $1 january 2003)

Now, I assume that the 1% you refer to is for a guy like me who doesn't know zip about trading. How much does a professional daytrader usually make per month?
Question is based on that the company has to make a profit after having payed me my 1%...

/Mr. E

No, on average people make much less than the 1% per month. That was the "good" scenario. The average scenario would be around the best the bank can give you, 0.5% per month.

A single stock, a single oportunity, might give you, in retrospect, MUCH more than that. But the keywords here are "Might" and "Retrospect". You cannot be certain of how much it will give you, and you might actually lose money on it.

The 1% I refer to is for some very experienced fund manager. A guy that doesn't know trading stands as much chance of losing as of making money. A professional daytrader might make on average 15-20% a year or more, but those are the good ones, some might make 1000% but might go BK right afterwards. Look up Victor Niederhoffer. Overall, daytraders seem to lose money.

Why do you need a pro to make the 1% per month? For starters, because almost no company will pay 1% per month. Only very poor credit prorspects presently pay 1% per month, and if they do it's cause they already have some bankrupcy risk.

After knowing all of this, do you really believe that there a profitable company out there paying more than 500% per year?

One other thing. One can come up with COUNTLESS examples of investors making 50-100-200% in a year or in a trade.

But remember, those are "after the fact" returns. In a large population where each individual has his own return, some are bound to be very high because of sheer luck. Some are also bound to be very low out of sheer bad luck.

Over time, very few people end up earning more than 30% per year. Which means that no one can promise "a priori" linear returns above that.

Okej, I have some questions regarding what you just wrote but we'll leave it til later...
Final question I have is leverage. Is it possible to get a leverage of 20 times?

/Mr. E

It's possible to get leverage of 200 times if needed be.

But do remember that if you are levered it works both ways,and if you are levered 20X and the market moves 5% against you you are totally wiped out (this is simplistic, margin calls would mean you'd still keep some money, but the move to take you out of the market would also be much smaller than 5%).

Something else to ponder is that there IS a reason for there not being virtually any low risk forms of making more than 10% per year. The reason is simple, it's called arbitrage. There are almost limitless pools of capital available for ayone that can come up with a low risk, profitable, scheme. And this capital costs 8% or less per year.

Now, any low risk arb that crops up over 10% or so would get exploited by these limitless pools of capital till it vanished below the cost of the borrowed capital.

There are no miracles in finance.

PIPS is having lots of problems paying.  See below a quote from PIPS staff.
==============================================

Thursday 11th of November 2004 at 07:51:52 pm
Dear Sir/Madam,

Sorry to say that I can't confirm with you when your withdrawal will be released. However, we will try to solve it as soon as possible. Please be patient as we are here trying to solve it as soon as possible.

We apologize for the inconvenience and thank you in advance for your patience.
Posted by: Rozy Bt Ramli

===============================================

At least they are not making promises.  Even they admit they don't know when they will be able to pay.

Warm Regards,
Lucky

If they are able to delay withdrawals without people freaking out, they might go on paying for an extended period, with greater and greater delays.

Now, lets look at this PIPS...



You state that they need to make 500% per year. I'd say that's impossible to do and why should one do it? It doesn't make sence...

So, question would be: How did you come up with this figure?

/Mr. E

It's more than 500%, I am being nice and saying 500%.

How do I come up with this figure? Do the following, use a simulator, put in the initial investment, compound at 100% for a year, withdraw at 100% for the next year. Sum up the withdrawn money, compare to original investment.

How much did you make, %wise, per year? This is money withdrawn against money put in, you can ignore everything else (there will still be ROI in the account, etc, ignore that).

That money must come from somewhere. That's the cost of the original money.

In truth, I'm only able to be answering this much cause the bloody S&P has been going laterally for 4 days now.

Well some people are starting to get worried but they really want to belive that they have found a magical solution to financial freedom.

Below is a quote from one member.

==============================================

PIc Pay... has always been good to me!! i Just am in need of my funds Badly and i check from time to time on my bank wire to my bank and its not there.... i just signed up a member to PIPS and as of right now becouse of everything that is going on with the site and the withdrawl funtions i am looking pretty stupid!!. i talked great about the program and i got info to back it up but yet i got no current proof to back it up since my friend has invested allot of money i cant even get a simple wire... and it makes me look stupid!!! even though i have ALLOT OF FAITH IN PIPS/PIC PAY!!!!. im just sayingl... my friend doesent got much and is looking foreward to the hollidays and asked me if he invested with him and his Wife in november a good amount of money.. would he have good $$$ in for christmas!! i said YES!! couse i believe in PI!! now the withdrawl function is TAKING FOREVER!!. i feel embarassed . i dont feel the need to contact PI/PIC PAY couse i know they work extremely hard!!!... i just need help as most members do!! MR Burn SiR... Please Help!!! i know you have always reasured me.. but as of now i see no update from PICPAY website or PI website on withdrawl status.. Mr Burn!! Please shed some light on this problem for me... i know you have never let me down and you are here for me and all of us that work together as a family... PLEASE help us get our funds and we are in need of them desperately and are tired of having are FAITH in the COMPANY rocked and challenged!!!. THank you!!!

GODBLESS!!!!

Aaron.


==============================================

But there is really nothing they can do. No one has any paper work or anything that would say they are legally owed money from Brian. In fact they only have a web site and the web site has lots of warnings that the money is not secured and that it is high risk.  Unfortuanately everyone does not take this advice.  

I personally do not feel sorry for people who suffer because they invested more than they could afford to loose.   If you let greed override common sense than you will suffer.

I have invested in PIPS.  I hope they can remain open at least 3 more months so that hopefully I can at least withdraw my orginal deposti.  But if they fall before I can get my money out so be it.  I understood the risk and rolled the dice.   I like to gamble and I have always understood that PIPS is not an investment.

Lucky

Okej, I will try it out.

What's an S&P?

/Mr. E

S&P 500, the market is boring as hell in the last 4 days.

It's worse than I thought ... they are blaming the withdrawal delays on the slowness of a computer ...

Since some members are waiting since the beginning of Oct.  which is 6 weeks, they must haave really slow computers.

With all the money that Brian can generate you would think he could afford really fast computers.

I get the following (wanted to know on one year, not two, easier to count):
100% reinvest during 6 months then 100% withdrawn:

Insert $450
Withdrawn $4632,52

=> 929,45% in one year...
Am I making something wrong? You said 500%

/Mr. E

I used 2 years and I came to 775% per year.

I said that I was being kind with the 500%. It's more, I know. My point is that at 500%, or 400%, or 200%, or 100% the conclusion is just the same: it's a scam.

Mmm... yes...
Makes sence. I'd say most people wouldn't take out all, hence getting a steady income during infinit time... So let's count on your 500%...

$1000 given into PIPS would cost them $5000

Then I read that they have a leverage of 12, which is not impossible according to you.



(yes I know the danger with this, but investing in PIPS is highrisk so...)

What would the interest be on such margin? 3%? 4%? Let's say 5%...

$11000 into PIPS costs them $550

So, so far the cost would be $5550 for a capital of $12000... That's less than 100%. Even less than 50%...

Allthough I agree that to make 50% every year is highly unlikly.

Am I right so far?

/Mr. E

Incognitus, I'm very tired of your threats on Pips forum. You was banned already twice there but you continue attacking Pips and calling all us "criminals". Your attacks to Pips are attacks to me and to all my hopes which I have put into Pips, the best Company all around world! Consider yourself warned, if you continue doing this thing I will hire the best hackers to bring your site down forever!

An angry Pipster.

Angry Pipsteer, you are behaving like a criminal. Including explicit threaths and all. Besides, I didn't check, but if you're on a developed country, I could get your IP, sue you for damages, and actually have proof that you were behind any future attack.

Also, if you really believe in PIPS, then you'd think that PIPS needs no further entrants, and that if people leave it's no problem either, so you'd have no problem with my "attacks".

E, that leverage theory is the official version.

In reality, if you trade consistently with 12X margin, what happens is that you go BK quite quickly. Leverage works both ways. It would also introduce an incredible amount of volatility into the earnings.

And besides, the logical fallacy in such thinking has already been poinmted out: if you say that PIPS money + margin is used to support the 500%, then you're saying that 95% of the capital involved in this venture is solely dedicated to support the other 5% at a rate that is 50X what the profitable venture could get elsewhere.

Simply put: it makes no sense.

Just trying to be logical here...
So, you agree that my math is correct, allthough you don't believe it would work cause it would be too easy to go BK, whenever a dip comes in.

You are in fact stating that no investment-company is constantly working on margins... Are you really sure about this?

/Mr. E

E and Incognitus,

It is not margin that allows PIPS to pay 500% to 900%, it is the Bristo.

Of course, the Bristo is not open yet but I have seen pictures of a building under construction that said PIPS Bristo.   So it must be true.  Also once the Bristo opens surely PIPS will be able to pay 1000% to 2000%

Don't you agree?

E, a lot of companies work on margin.

Only they base their margin use in low risk, highly diversified instruments, and they achieve at most 20-30% returns per year with those strategies and even then those returns aren't consistent, they have considerable volatility.

Banks are a prime example of large "margined" entities. ROE's of 20% are rather common, but those come from a lot of different businesses within banking (and both interest, commissions, etc,etc).

Thank you

To bad I never got to know what volume on money one could expect things to get harder... That would be my last puzzle-piece needed for my DD...

I promised earlier to answer your questions. I'm ready

/Mr. E

What was I about to ask? Can't remember.

Heh, that's ok.

But I must inform you that what we together have come up with prooves that we both don't know the real answer to PIPS, hence your accusations might be illagle rumour-spreading, since they are not based on facts...

We've just come to the conclusen that PIPS could work with less than 500% gain per year.. Now that IS a fact.

Note, this is not a threat. Just a friendly warning...

If you'd like to continue (and I believe you will) then I advise you to start digging up real proof, so that you can back up your theories. Yes, I admit that their are alot of if's but we haven't come up with any proof of any of these if's to be wrong...

If you have any questions please feel free to pm me at PIPS-forum. My alias is Nostrade.

Until later

 8) Mr. E

Listen, nothing more is needed to say PIPS is a scam. It's an OBVIOUS scam. The interest rate they promise together with the volatility they promise can only be produced by a scam.

It's useless to try and find proof beyond that. The only other conclusive evidence against PIPS is in the bank statments, and we're never going to see those.

I have no fear at all that I might get sued for "spreading these rumours". If I were to be sued, I could ask for the relevant documents. With those documents, it would be easy to show PIPS is a scam.

It is those defending PIPS that really need to open their eyes. Here is a scheme saying they pay 500%-700-900% per year with zero volatility and no need to ask for the money in the first place. And you people believe it's NOT a scam? Jesus.

The ones that should need to prove that they're not a scam are PI/PIPS. And they should have the documents to show that they are not a scam, but they don't show those documents. Why? Well ... cause they ARE a scam.

E. It's only a question of time. Meanwhile it would be very ethical if you and others didn't spread this scam further.

Pips should show some proof, end of story!

I fear Ingocnitus is right, I hope he isn't, but I think he probably is!

Well, I don't know...

You first stated it could last for 30 - 35 years... Now the volume of money compounded during that time sais it can't be. However we both agreed it is likely it will last at least another 3 years, hence why shouldn't I invite friends and familly-members to this, knowing they'd get their initial capital back within this timeframe?

I understand your point of view and it is logical, but you can't say it's a scam until you've prooven how or why. So far you've only based your proof on the fact that it's unrealistic to believe a company should make 500% or even more just to be able to pay its investors. We've both together and in a friendly way thought forth a way on how this could be feasable with less than 50% per year... That's 10x less  :shock:

I appriciate your concern, but you need to come up with something more to convince me/us. I know PIPS isn't going to last forever, but how is it going to end? As I see it there are three scenarios

1. Directly, all loose. It's a scam
2. When time comes no more units will be possible to buy. Hence it will be closed over a 180 day period.
3. Remaining capital is divided among the units and then closed.

/Mr. E

I see the withdrawel option is up again...
Heh, I thought it would take another week. Well, indeed good news.

Incognitus, I invite you to PIPS. Would you like to have me as sponsor?
Based on the calculation we made, do a calculated risk on loss towards gain... I'm warning yout hough. It's highrisk, and there exist a possibility that it is a scam...

 :D Mr. E

The withdrawal option is open which means you can process a request for a withdrawal.   It does not mean that PIPS will actually send the check or complete the wire transfer.  

There are still people waiting on money for weeks.  So yes you can process a withdrawal request and begin your wait for money.

Of course PIPS may fold at any moment.  People will only believe the "we are having computer problems for so long".   More and more people will start trying to get their money out as they see the many excuses by PIPS for not  completeing the withdrawals.  

PIPS will fall quicker when more and more people want withdrawals.  PIPS will last longer when people are satisfied to look at their ROI and do not try to withdraw.  But all the excusses by PIPS could cause a panic attack of the members which only means a quicker PIPS death.  

Lucky

E, you're distorting all I said. I said 30% is difficult and unlikely. And besides, they promise 500%, not 30%. The 30% returns already have a lot of risk in them, you can't leverage them to get 300% or 600%.

Hi! Incognitus
I want here to congratulate you for your demonstration about Pips.
I tried on the French forum (but I must say that before I was a believer and joined their program) that Pips cannot achieve such return in the long haul.
My conclusion was close to your's so the French was thinking now that I was you incognitus.....
I want nevertheless to say here that I'm pseudo 'napoleon7' and that I'm not incognitus.
Today I served them a little économic study about the money supply (you know what I will say......if your earn $1 another on earth lose $1) for explain them that Bryan system cannot work (money supply).....
This argument is imparable......so my topic was deleted....
Its this way Pips work.......
Imagine they organized a poll for see if I must be banished or not...
Now like I have money in this potential scam if Bryan don't hold his promises I will make a charge back on my cc.
Its crasy to read that some persons will leave their works while they get some money from Pips......Incredible...
On my part I joined because I must say that I was impressed that they was incorporated and their 11 businesses....
My fault that I maked no DD....All this positive post on the forum too was a decision to join........
This people know what they do.............in marketing  :)
Its always a bad sign when you are banished while you don't agree what the multitude think.......
Glad to have found to you on this forum....
Cordially, Marc

I saw the references. You were not the only one being accused of being me, either.

It's all in the calculations we did together above...

Salut Napoleon7
You do know that it is WF who is moderating the french forum, don't you?
As far as I know WF is like myself just investors. We are not working for PIPS...

To quote Incognitus, try not to distort things...

/Mr. E

E, not it's not, and indeed, you have a very poor grasp of finance if you think it is.

You seem to think that EVEN if 30% were likely (which it isn't), then you could happily leverage 30% to 300% or 3000%.

My friend, it don't work that way.

Okej, I'm listening. Why isn't it?

As pointed out before, I don't no zip about speculating in stocks. Actually all that I have invested in regular stocks has allways been a loss, while all I've speculated on internet MLM's and other investments has given me a gain... Perhaps PIPS will be my first, who knows... I haven't withdrawn my initial capital yet

/Mr. E

It's easy.

You never get 30% linear returns, no matter what you do. There's always volatility in those returns.

Leverage amplifies volatility. For instance, if when you are unleveraged you can expect a 15% maximum drawdown, when you are leveraged at 2X, the maximum drawdown turns to 30%.

Two things happen when you have larger volatility:
1) You can get margin calls that take you out of your positions at the worse time possible;
2) You make many more mistakes because of the fear when you're in a drawdown ... meaning your unleveraged and leveraged returns actually drop.

Finally, for any decent 20% drawdown or so (which is more than normal for a strategy able to produce 30% average returns), 5X or more leverage more or less guarantees you'll go bankrupt.

There are no miracles in finance. Ah, and the 30% average returns probably include some leverage already.

Okej...
So why do one use leverage? I thought it would be to boost your investments, thus giving you a higher gain (or loss, of course).

/Mr. E

As per the logic above, you can use small amounts of leverage in volatile instruments, or you can use large amounts of leverage in low volatility instruments.

Trouble is, the instruments you can leverage more yeild little, and leverage has a cost, so the total return by applying a lot of leverage never gets too much out of hand. LTCM used huge amounts of leverage in rather tight arbitrage plays, and managed to do well (30% plus for a good while) until they got unlucky. Even low volatility instruments sometimes have a little more volatility, and when you're leveraging huge ...

Put another way, leverage increases returns but also increases risk. Sometimes, you can do with a little more risk for a little more return.

PIPS works as if no such relationship exists. That's another clue as to its nature.

I tend to disagree here. Bryan told me and explained about the increasing risk with having a margin; "With a margin of 25, if you loose 4% your whole capital is gone". He also emphasized not to invest money one could not afford to loose "Even if PIPS is more stable today than it was one year ago, it is still considered a high-risk investment"

But back to the leverage (hope I'm not annoying you)
I still fail to see why you say it is not true that PIPS is having a leverage of 12.
I do understand your 2 points, and of course point 1 beeing quite annoying...

/Mr. E

Here you go:



/Mr. E

Seams like others are counting aswell. Interesting to see that his outcome is the same as mine, PIPS will end when they have to much money to invest (one of my first questions to you :wink: ).
He predicts 47 months. Pretty much concures our mutual prediction of three more years.

Now, I'd like to hear what you have to say about this:



/Mr. E

What I want to know here is why you (Incognitus) refer to the "Jesus of finance." It seems to me, Incognitus, that you think you are the Jesus of finance. Why do you continue to bash PIPS when the best you have are distorted speculations of what is mathematically possible. What are your credentials? What makes you the expert on what is possible and what is not possible? Are you a mathematical genius? Or are you indeed the "Jesus of finance?" No matter which one you are self proclaimed to be, you are so far off base and diluted you make me laugh.

I am telling you right here and now, that over the past two years and 23 days I have achieved a 7306% return on my money. Let me spell that out for you in case you misunderstood me, that is SEVEN THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED SIX PERCENT on my money. Althouogh this was not achieved through the PIPS program, I know firsthand that these types of returns are possible. I am living, breathing proof of that. You have nothing but misguided, uneducated, speculative pessimism. Prove you theories!! Show me your audits!! Come on mister SEC slap it down on the table, show me what youve got.

I didn't think so junior. You should go find someone else to play with because you are way out of your league. Until you can prove your speculations (even though "mathematically" they are somewhat feasible) you have proven nothing to me nor have you made me a believer of your ranting.

I am beginning to wonder who in the PIPS company hurt your feelings so bad that you have to spend every waking moment trying to discourage people from the program.

Get a job dude, you have way too much time to waste.

If PIPS had a leverage of 12, its returns would be all over the map, and it would be incredibly risky to be paying a fixed 2% dividend. The disclaimers about risk in PIPS are there not so much because of the risk, but to make the thing more realistic. It's laughable to talk about risk, and then project 2% per day going forward 2 years.

"Proven PIPS member", It gets tiring to say this over and over. Returns of 10000% in a day are POSSIBLE, returns of 7300% in 2 years are POSSIBLE. However, they are extremely UNLIKELY and UNPREDICTABLE. Hence, you cannot payout 2% per day counting with them in the future.

Once you grasp that, maybe we can talk further.

As for being the Jesus of Finance, Bryan is not the Jesus of Finance, he'll turn out to be a common thief. And I am not the Jesus of Finance either, what I am telling you here hundreds of thousands of other people would say the same, they're simply not aware PIPS exists.

Incog ... you really are what your name suggests. And stupid to boot. You keep saying the same things over and over and never come up with anything even coming close to proof. YOU HAVE NO PROOF OF ANYTHING YOU HAVE POSTED. Hence, you are simply a lame moron who likes to hear himself talk. Give up and go shoot yourself in the foot. You have shot your big mouth off more than enough, now choose some other part of your body to abuse.

I have to repeat myself often, cause some PIPSters are too dumb to get it the first time. It's a sad reality.

But then again, someone managed to convince you people that a perfectly laughable scheme is for real. It doesn't surprise me that no proof short of it blowing up will ever satisfy you.

Also, I can understand that some of you are just protecting the money tree. It's sad, but it's reality.

Some PIPS don't even realize what they say.

yes, you that made 7306% on two years, please can you explain and prove HOW you did it? Or you are one of the PIP members that THINK they have 7306% in ROI and not money?

You ask for proves, but you say you did 7306% from what base? US$100 to US$7306? Is that it?

You are a joke!!!!!! You tell the others are juniors, and come up here telling jokes to us...

Please, go to PIPS forum instead... Where you can come up with this things and everybody believes you...

Incog, you simply cannot slammed the man for any crime's yet to be commited. The truth is, PI /PIPS is already 2 year old and that Pipsters still receiving money as promised except some delay in current withdrawal due to technical errors in the Old Server before the transfer of PIPS data from 3rd Party's Server to PureInvestor new data centre as reported by the support staff, Anusha. She's just one of the common PI staff couldn't possibly be lying the Pipsters as posted in the PIPS forum.

'Do not paint the whole picture's with just one brush.' Who knows........, your baseless accusation of Bryan could turn out to be just another one of the world Financial Genius (instead of 'll be a common theif) like Microsoft Bill Gates. Before this common salesman started off his business, who would be believing an undergraduated university drop out could become the world richest man on earth.

You wasted much of your energy and times bashing PIPS here in your forum without concrete proof except speculation and mathematical impossibilities of PIPS out of the box possible financial achievement as what Bryan said.

CLONNING is successful. What's NEXT.......................????? Only the person think 'OUT OF THE BOX' knows!!!!!!!!!!!

My conclusion is................., anything beyond reasonable doubt is 'POSSIBLE' out of the impossible in the revolutionary world.

Further arguement here is pointless for as long as new Pipsters are getting their initiate capital back in every 4-5 months for as long as PIPS still having its business running. No one possibly can predict what's going to happen tomorrow.

Did you read the "unofficial FAQ"?

I've already explained that people receiving money changes nothing. People getting more than they put in changes nothing. It's still a scam, when it implodes, as every Ponzi scheme implodes, more people will lose than those that won, and more money will be lost than won.

As for the Bill Gates comparison, it makes no sense. Bill Gates didn't base his business on paying impossible interest rates when he could get money at 1/50th the price or less.

Mr. E -

posted this example of PIPS paying

My WT last monday(11/08/04) just complete.....only took 4 days....2 more days will be in my BANK....
_________________
ZAM-ZAM ALKAZAM....


Which I do not dispute that some people are occassionally getting paid.

My point is that PIPS is having trouble paying all withdrawals.  There are people waiting since OCT 9 for wire transfers.  

You can go to the PIPS formum and the PICPAY formum  and find lots of people begging for updates on when they can expect to recieve their money.


Until PIPS can pay all withdrawals within a reasonable amount of time.  I stand by my opinion that they are having problems paying.


Lucky

Indeed. Picpay money is already starting to change hands at a discount to face value...the market is starting to price in doomsday. There are people talking about 20-30% discounts already.

PI is paying out $1,000,000 a Day

If it is a pyramid scam, to sustain it, you need at least
2222 NEW accounts a DAY.

We would need to recruit 11,110 members a week.

Since PIPs generated $1 million payouts
per day since September... i think...?

We would have needed to recruit:
44,440 members per month.
That is 88,880 members in 2 months.

Personally, I have NOT recruited a single member  
Have you?

Would Your Recruiting Cover the Payouts
- as required in a pyramid scam.

Anyone knows?

In the hope that all existing overdue payment settled within next few weeks. what you gonna says??????

Several misconceptions you have there.

For instance, you are assuming Bryan is telling the truth. Since PIPS is a ponzi, Bryan won't be telling the truth most of the time.

Then, you are assuming that each new member brings in just the minimum amount. You know that to be very false.

Next, you are assuming that withdrawals, even if true, were always one million, and they were lower before ... (they are increasing exponentially, though ... meaning the life of PIPS is getting shorter and shorter).

Finally, you are talking like they are actually PAYING the 1 million per day. But it happens that with all the delays, they really AREN'T.

The thing is a sure scam. Instead of trying to justify it so much you should ask why would Bryan pay you 500% or more per year when he could have the money for 10%. Or why Bryan doesn't publish the supposed audits he had.

Visitante, paying all outstanding withdrawals doesn't change the nature of the beast, it just means the beast lives longer.

If you understood exactly what we are talking here, you wouldn't even make that question.

Them being late in the withdrawals is not part of my central argument, it's just a clue that might point to a shorter life than expected.

Lucky, call up the support for further confirmation. Pipsters in my region still receive payments promptly.

I got you Incog, you are WHATIF!!!!!!! replying the same statement as posted "Pyramid Scam Calculation."

No matter whatif, PIPS is Scam /Ponzi to you............................in hope that it imploded as soon as possible to proof that you right about it.

yes, yes, whatever.

But hey, you are right, I want that ponzi scheme to implode as soon as possible. The longer it lasts, the more people will get hurt. By design.

==================================
Lucky, call up the support for further confirmation. Pipsters in my region still receive payments promptly.

==========

I have called PIPS & PICPAY.  I am one of the ones waiting for a WT from the 9th.   I do not hate PIPS or PICPAY.   I hope to be able to get all of orginal money back within the next 60 days and I hope they stay open long enough for me to even withdraw more than I orginally deposited.

But I do not believe that PIPS is a great run company that will last for years and years.   I believe that they will fall at some point.  I hope that they do make it another 10 or 12 months.   But I consider it a gamble and not an investment.

If PIPS was to fall, I would have no hard feelings toward Brian or staff.  
His web pages clearly says that it is high risk and I accept it as that - high risk.  I do not try to argue that they are a safe investment and a well run company.  PIPS is exactly what Brian says it is a High Risk and don't invest more than you can afford to lose.

I have taken Brian at his word.  I do not pretend that I have made a solid financial decision.  I have gamble some money and hope to make a profit but I could lose all my orginal investment.   I accept either outcome.

Lucky

Proven Pips Member, maybe you should look and see who posted what before you start calling names, he? My answer was made assuming those returns came outside PIPS. Another poster answered the way you are saying.

Nobody is going to "hold me accountable for the slander". And you know why that won't happen? Cause it's a scam, and if it went to court, it would become an exposed scam. I've already said that in the FAQs, you weren't paying attention.

As for the rest of your post, since It has so many insults I am forced to delete it. Anyway, my credentials are more than enough for me to say what I am saying, but like I said previously, ANYONE with the least bit of knowledge would be qualified to say the same.

Yesterday Marc / Napoleon7 wrote the following:  

(It's a long post and you can find his entire message on page 13 of this forum.  I am just coping a couple of lines where he says he will do a charge back against Brian / PIPS.)
====================
Hi! Incognitus
I want here to congratulate you for your demonstration about Pips.
I tried on the French forum ...... in this potential scam if Bryan don't hold his promises I will make a charge back on my cc.
.......
Glad to have found to you on this forum....
Cordially, Marc
============


I would just like to say that I think Marc is very wrong to complete or threaten a charge back.   The site clearly says it is high risk at no point does Brian/PIPS  gurantee these returns.    I think you are a complete dirt bag if you are willing to take the money if a high risk investment pays but will do a charge back if they are unable to pay.  

You are simply a thief who wants to gamble for high returns but do not have the balls to stand behind your decision to put money in a high risk company.   IF you are willing to take the profits you should be willing to take the potentail loss.

Brian has been honest.  The site clearly says it is high risk.  

Lucky

Lucky, I understand your point against Napoleon's attitude, BUT he would be right to do a chargeback if it became public that PIPS was a scam, for the simple fact that the site AND the forum AND Bryan keep saying it ain't a scam.

I think both sides made good and bad points but the truth is both sides are neither right nor wrong.

Those who think it's ponzi have no proofs (only bank statements could prove that PIPS is investing deposited millions).

Those who thing it is legal business have no proofs too. People beeing paid is not an argument because every elaborated ponzi pays perfectly for some time.

I think it could be legal in the past but could become ponzi lately.
Pureinvester was relatively small fund which paid 1.9%. Pureinvester had not autocompounding option.

I read 1000s opinions. Some are positive some are negative. Who is right? Who knows. But right now I see too many red flags.

Time will tell.

So you delete Posts that speak truth, much like you have acused PIPS of doing. Hmmm, looks like everything has gone full circle here. And you still refuse to answer the question of what your credentials are. You are very good at skating around all questions raised about your credibility. And if you are so certain that this is a "Ponzi," why havn't you gone to the authorities? Why don't you answer some of these questions instead of avoiding them with redirected BS?

I will tell you why, because you have no proof and you have no answer.

Well said.......... LUCK,. hope for the BEST!!!!!!!

Poven, I deleted the post cause it was your 2nd or 3rd one filled with insults.

My credentials include both academic and profissional experience in the area. I've got a postgraduation in financial markets and products, as well as a college course on the same (I think it's a BA or something for americans), and I've worked in finance positions for around one decade. But I wouldn't need any of that, anyone with a bachelor's in Economics could tell you the same and he'd be right too.

Another second, minute, hour, day, month, year, decade, century and we all probably be six foot underground :D  :D  :D

Yep, Keynes said as much.

But this isn't the long term I'm talking about.

Hi *****,

If you have all the proof and evidence, WHY don't you report PIPS to the authorities.

All talk and NO ACTION, makes incognitus - a coward hiding behind a website.

Talk, talk, talk and some more talk .....

Talk is cheap ........  ******.    :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x

How very impressive. As far as insults are concerned, that is all you are doing here. You have called Bryan and PIPS a scam, a lie, you have even gone as far as calling Bryan a common thief. You have also stated that PIPSters are "too dumb" to know what is goin on here.

If those are not insults, I do not know where you come from. Where I come from, if you sling mud around like that and you have no proof, you can face prison time. It is called SLANDER my friend. It so easy for you to point the finger without the burden of proof. Perhaps you should be the one paying attention to what YOU post.

No, those aren't insults. What do you want me to call the PIPS scam? It's a scam, a ponzi scheme, what do you want me to call it? And what do you want me to call its author?

As for the "too dumb" comment, I was being insulted at the time, I might have exaggerated in the answer, but there really is some lack of inteligence on the part of those that think that $450 will make them rich in a year with 0 effort and a linear payout.

Even if i do lose money in PIPS...........is WORTH my laughable forum here. Everyone knows that "Laughter is the best CURE medicine". Incognitus, you 'll tell me that you 'll have your last laugh when PIPS imploded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When it implodes there will be no reason to laugh, cause a lot of people will be depending on it, will have sunk money they couldn't spare into it, will see their lives destroyed, etc. It always happens like that. Check that little comment on talkgold.com about FLO (another scam) which I reproduced in the FAQ article ... there's talk of suicides and all.

When these schemes last little, they only catch hard core players. When they last this long, they catch a lot of unsuspecting "real" people.

Incognitus says:

Lucky, I understand your point against Napoleon's attitude, BUT he would be right to do a chargeback if it became public that PIPS was a scam, for the simple fact that the site AND the forum AND Bryan keep saying it ain't a scam.

=====

Okay, I see your point.  But if he is taking the moral high road than he should not take the profits.   If you are moral you should not want to benefit from a scam or ponzi.

If he says he will do a charge back if PIPS is determined to be a scam or ponzi, than if he is truly honest he would also return any profits he has taken before PIPS fall.    

But I got the impression from his post that he was more than happy to take the money but would do a charge back as soon as things did not go his way.   From my point of view that iis no better than being the actual owner of a ponzi.    You are either moral and honest or not.    

From my point of view and I understand that maybe no one will agree with me.   If you are willing to take the money (for as long as it may last) than you should also be willing to take the lost of money when it falls and not cry when you lose your money.   Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose but I always take responsiblity for the decision I make and I did choose to deposit money in PIPS.   Time will tell if that was a good decision or a bad decision but it was my decision.

Lucky

Well, I read the whole article and I have to admit most of it is just leading questions answered by speculation. I'd like to know how some of your answers proves it ISN'T real. I could speculate the same about any Fortune500 company then, couldn't I?

There are stocks that gain 700, 800, even over 1000% if you know what you're looking for. There's a tiny company coming up right now that just invented an anti-spam software that relaly works who's current stock is expected to gain 790% within a few months of this product releasing. It's a risk, absolutely, but it's possible to make those gains.

PIPS does not guarantee that 2% return, I don't know why you argue as if they do.

Regards incognito, I don't know what you're trying to prove.

I see your point.

When PIPS does implode, there will be many people that profited greatly from it basically by participating in a illegal scheme that will ruin many lives. Yet, those people will somehow rationalize that they deserved the money, and no one will be returning it to the victims for sure.

Well then lets do the math to see what "mathimatically impossible" really is. In two years I made 7306% on my money. There are 730 days in a two year period. So lets take 7306 and divide it by 720. Hmmm.... let's see...by my calculations that comes out to 10.0082191 every single day of that two year period. So now, what is it that you were saying?

Proven, it's rather simple: how certain are you of making 7000% NEXT year?

Pioneer Pipsters started $450 or more already proven rich in paying off all the debts and many more and what you gonna say about it. And you still be calling PIPS Scam /Ponzi, anyway.

Well, they got that money from other people. Since PIPS is a scam, when it implodes it won't be much different from them having ROBBED the other people. Specially when they keep defending the program, lending it credibility and making it last further. While they did not commit the original crime, they sure as hell perpetuated it.

Who has actually claimed certainty in the PIPS program? Absolutely not a single person. Everyone is aware of the risks involved and it is stated on the site that it is a great risk. It also states that you should not use grocery money for this endeavor. If people are depending on PIPS to make them rich and they are using money that they should be using for bills, then shame on them. There is no false lure in this program, it is an opportunity with known risks. The stock market is the same thing.

As far as how certain I am of making 7000% nect year, who knows, but I do know that I will make more than 2% per day over the next year. And I am far from the "jesus of finance." You have to be one of the most negative people I have run across, you should get out and experience some of the good things in life instead of hiding behind statistics, calculators and speculation. There is more to life than trying to destroy hope.

There have been no promises made with the PIPS program. You are preaching to the choir.

Proven, It's one thing to say there are risks, it's quite another to run a ponzi while screaming "we are no ponzi, we are no ponzi".

As for you being certain that you'll make more than 2% per day, I must say you're the only person in the world with that certainty. You should be proud. Not even a single one of Wall Street's best paid traders (deserving or not) has that kind of certainty.

What motivation does a Wall Street trader have to spend every waking moment making millions upon millions of dollars for other people? They don't! You know as well as I do, Wall Street traders are paid on a comission basis. THey will spend thier day trading until they think they have made enough money for the day or until the market closes. That is the lifestyle they have become accustomed to. That is where there expectation and thier motivation ends. Let them put thier own money in the market and then see how thier level of education, motivation and research effort rises. I would be willing to bet exponentially.

You are talking in circles Incog, you have no basis for your rant. There are so many variables to what is possible and what is not. You are the ultimate pessimist and I speculate because you have been burned one too many times. Forgive and forget, let it go, you are still alive, be happy for a few minutes if you dare.

A lot of "traders" run their own hedge funds and take a large cut out of the performance commissions. NONE of those funds generates anything close to 2% per day. Indeed, very few make it over 100% in a regular year.

Sorry, but you simply don't know what you are saying. This isn't an insult, but you don't know how the market is structured, what is possible, what isn't, what you can predict, what you can't and so forth.

Blah, blah, blah. Once again you speculate what I know. You do not even know who I am , yet you already know me better than I know myself. You never cease to amaze me with your crap.

Why don't you just break down and put the proven formula in text right here on this forum that PROVES PIPS will not work. When you can do that, I will not say another word. Until then you will remain a speculative naysayer.

Sure, the formula goes like this 0.368*(1+7)^n. The 0.368 is $0.368Bn, the present size of PIPS 2% fund. You can substitute n for the number of years you'd like, and see how much that fund would need to grow to for PI to keep its promises. You will see that after 5 years or so the numbers become completely stupid, proving that the scheme is unsustainable.

It's unsustainable because it's a fraud. Things like promising a 5 year plan, saying the plan is insured by Allianz, etc, etc further prove it's a fraud. In 5 years time it is a certainty that there will be no PIPS and no PI either.

As for saying that thing about you not knowing something, I said it cause you didn't seem to know how some of the best paid traders are paid, and how funds take their commissions, etc.

Mutual funds take a % of assets, those don't have much motivation to take risks. But hedgies usually take 20% of all the profits, so they do. Yet they can't match you or your certainty.

You are basing that formaula on the fact that the only money going into PIPS is coming from new signups. If that were the case, I would be inclined to agree with your formula. Since that is definately not the case, you ar once agin incorrect. Do you even have a clue what PIPS is about and where thier revenue comes from?

No, I'm basing the formula on no money coming in, and no money going out. I'm basing the formula on the theory "we don't need new entrants". Or "new entrants will be the same as withdrawn money".

But that's besides the point, The formula reflects the promise implicit in PIPS. It's an impossible promise.

Although it may be impossible to stick a feather in your ass and fly, it is not impossible to achieve returns above and beyond what is traditionally known to be. Who are you to say that PIPS is not one of those anomolies?

I have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that it can be achieved by achieving it myself. I have layed your so called formula to waste. There is no degree and/or school that can help you to understand anything out of what is traditionally known or recorded. I feel sorry that you have no belief in the unknown nor do you have any outlook. You live in a box and you will continue to limit yourself because you have no idea what is outside of that box.

Do you believe in God? Do you have any faith toward any particular religion? How do you know it is the right one? How do you know there is a God if you do believe in such a thing. There are millions of people out there who think that is an impossibility, but I bet you would argue it if you have any faith or belief in such a thing.

You should let sleeping dogs lie my friend, because you are very liable to get bit in the ass. You shouldn't go around telling people what can work and what can not, especially when you have no clue what is under the surface.

Let's get real incognito...

I don't mind if a business eventually folds or an investment eventually didn't make it but where's your proof something illegal is going on?

You seem so sure, go ahead, prove it  :wink:

Bryan Marsden also talked about an IPO for PIPS in a year or so.  That means it would be a totally legit business entity owned by shareholders.  PIPS members would be able to get in on the ground floor and when the stock jumps, we'd all benefit.

If this does happen what will you have to say about it then?

Proven, the IPO won't happen. Like the Ernst & Young audit won't happen, and the Allianz insurance of the 5Y Plan won't happen.

Macabress, virtually all of these schemes are illegal. You know that there are a lot of lies flying around, that the companies can't be making the money that turns into ROI, and that the scheme is impossible. You also know the guy tried a MLM before building this Ponzi. What doubt do you have that it will turn out illegal?

No I don't know incognito, but you just admitted you're going on complete speculation.

I know a ponzi and pyramid scheme is illegal, that's not a point at all.


Show me proof that PI is illegal.

PI is a ponzi, ponzis are illegal, thus PI is illegal.

However, it might not be illegal everywhere in the world. But what does it matter? It's a scam, it's a fraud.

And then you say "show me proof". The definite proof will only come "too late". Right now I've exposed all the arguments that can be made. The only thing remaining is for PIPS to blow up.

I've also pointed out what can be done to disprove my theory. It would be rather easy to do what I said, yet they don't do it. What further proof do you need?

Disprove your theory? You haven't even proven it yet.

Why can't you just admit you have no proof PI is illegal?

Actually, with all I said, it would fall to PI to prove it's legal. Indeed, the minute they say "2% per day", they have to prove they are legal.

It is you believers that take such a claim and believe it without asking for proof.

I have given all the proof there needs to be given as to why PI is a scam. The only thing missing is it blowing up.

I believe PIPS needs Incognitus and other people questioning their operations.   If PIPS is a honest group of corporations that is able and willing to pay out returns that are unbelievable than the opinions of Incognitus will not hurt them.

If PIPS is not truly earning what they claim to be earning and are paying out using membership monies, than Incognitus opinions needs to be heard by people who may be investing more than they can afford to loose.

Below a few comments copied from the PIPS formum.  Some people are getting in trouble because they are not receiving their pay outs.  

From Grateful:
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:08 am    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Not happy, the bottom line is this is costing me money and my credit rating because I can not pay my truck payment. Hope they don't come and take my truck cause I absolutely need that truck to pull my old trailer with that must be moved and the store is too far to walk. I was told I would be paid this week, but it did not happen. So how long really, I am depressed.


deda writes:
My other withdrawels did not go over a week but this has been two weeks and finds me down to my last few dollars and a stack of bills. Now I am wondering if I need to go look for a job to build my bank account up which is not easy to do at age 57. I need the security of knowing when I request a withdrawal I am going to receive it.

====

There are more examples on the PIPS forum but I do not need to copy all of them here. Everyone can go there and read the PIPS  forum

So  INCOGNITUS you are needed to remind people to not gamble away
their life savings,  do not think you can get rich and retire from $450 "investment".     INCOGNITUS keep up the good fight because some people have not heard what you have to say and are getting themeselves into financial trouble.

PIPS is not guaranteed.  At best it is a very high risk proposal and at worst it is a pure and simple ponzi.   Please don't fool yourself into believing that you have found the easiest way on earth to become a millionaire


Just a reminder to everyone - do not "invest" more than you can afford to loose.   Do not try to retire on an "investment" that can fall at any time.  And don't blame Brian or PIPS if you can not pay your bills.  Take responsiblity for your own life.    

Lucky

Well, ego doesn't make a person right incognito.

I also don't understand faith investing. Never heard of it.

PIPS does not guarantee their returns. If you want to say it's a risk because of that reason, then ok, but you have no proof it's illegal.

Faith investing is what people do when putting money into PIPS. How else can people rationalize putting money into an impossible scheme?

Also, no risk investment guarantees its returns, but only PIPS says they'll be 2% a day.

Listen.....I took with Bryan an agreement.....
I loan him money and he pay me back for eternity 2% per trading day....
If he is unable to hold is word he broke the contract......
My position is easy to understand and all layer 'disclaimer or not....while he has to prove me with facts that he can't pay me more again ' will given me right...
He want to given me 25 per trading day for the next thousands years.....I asked him nothing...the idea comes from him..Ok ???

Sorry for my bad English

Rectif not 25 bur 2% per trading days.....

Hey Incog, just found your board

I've seen you writing in PIPS forum, and always liked the points you bring up, and hate all the stupid responses people give.

I haven't invested yet, because I think it's too good to be true, and my questions on the forum have been answered by people with high hopes. When I questioned how PIPS could afford to pay me so much after 2 years (I came up with my 5 year billionaire plan) people said it would never get that high because no one can keep the money in long enough to achieve such high returns, which is totally false, because I could easily become a billionaire and after the first year be taking out enough to be very rich. People told me that only greedy people would try to get that much, and I should be thinking of helping the poor. GIVE ME A BREAK! This PIPS program is based on greed! 2 % a day is for the greedy, plain and simple. And then I read people saying that Bryan is fighting for the common man. His only goal is to make middle-class people become wealthy. OK, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Bryan having conventions, the best way to scam people is to meet them in person, and give them that personal touch. How do you think people got scammed before the internet? Or TV? Or Radio? Good old fashioned in person scamming is the best way to do it.

But after all this, I still want to invest. HAHAH. Damn, these guys are good.

Ah, I saw the answers you were getting on that post. Totally delusional. Although the plan promises 2% per day, you'd never be a billionaire cause only 5% of the people are "choosen" and would be able to resist withdrawing, blah blah.

They can't understand that the plan pays 2% so it would have to be viable even if no one withdrawed money. (this is curious, the only way that plan REALLY is viable, is in the worst possible case for a legitimate plan - if no one withdraws).

BTW, I took a beating in the S&P today. God, I should have stashed all my money in PIPS, I mean, I am so bad at this market thing I can't even get 1% per day and I'm all over the place, where if I just put my money in PIPS I'd have a zero volatility 1.9% per day ... geez. Today took me down from +46% to +42% for the year. Damn. PIPS would net me 500% by now with no sweat.

Listen...scam or not ...I have another concern very very more important....
How many people will go to ruin because of Pips....
I explain...
A great number of people claim in their posts on Pips forum that they have retire or would retire soon based on Pips checks..
Other loaned money by their bank because they have now a supplementary income....
Who will help all this people soon ?????
Nobody.....
That's the problem here when a potential Ponzi which pay a certain laps of time........
People become crasy .....especially the poors while they receive checks...
Tht's a real concern.....
How many people will go the ruin and not to financial freedom ??????
Just the contrary will happen......Believe me....

As I've pointed out, in the FLO scam there are people talking suicide and all.

Not that the stock market is much different, back in 2002 there was a accounting scam in MIR. I took my losses and went to RRI where I more than made it up, I tried convincing some people to go out of MIR cause it was smelling worse and worse ... in the end it went BK ... but even before it went BK a guy that was posting in the message boards commited suicide.

You dudes are funny  :wink:

They also state that it could be less and it could be more depending on the market. There have been several occasions that it was much less and Bryan took money out of his pocket to pay the returns.

In a situation that's highly unlikely, like PIPS, it's not wise to trust everything Bryan - or anyone else - has to say. You should always look for the simpler explanation.

The simpler explanation here is that Bryan tried an MLM, it failed, so he built up a Ponzi right after.

The complex explanation is the one being sold. Bryan tried an MLM, it failed, so he put everybody into a new program and turned himself into a financial wizard able to beat every other trader on earth by an impossible marging in a consistent manner and with close to zero volatility, then he turned around and decided to give everyone that came up with $450 a piece of his action.

Incognitus,

Where did you get such extensive knowledge and insider information on the PIPS program?

He seems to mostly be talking about FLO.......

FLO? I only mentioned FLO because of the consequences these kinds of schemes produce ...

Incog,

In the front page of your website you say to look at http://www.sc.com.my to see If PIPS is registered there. For those of you who are not familiar with that site, it is the securities commission in Malaysia. The thing that Incog did not mention is that there is also a section on that site that posts investor alerts. In other words, it lists scams, ponzi's, websites etc...  There is no listing for PIPS as being a scam either. Since PIPS is a Malaysian company and the SC in Malaysia has no listing for it must say something.

Incog I know you are going to rebut what I have said, and whatever you are going to say is not going to fly because if it was a scam the Securities Comission would definately know about it.[/url]

Incognitus keeps comparing PIPS returns with market returns.  Comparing apples with oranges.  He really has no clue.

Visitante, regarding the Malaysian securities regulator. They hadn't heard about PI yet. They have now. We'll see if they do something.

Of course, Bryan might have choosen Malaysia for a reason.

Remember one thing about ponzis: nobody complains while they are paying. So almost no ponzi gets noticed before imploding, unless it gets in the papers or someone reports it.

As for the market returns/otherwise. You must believe there are secret markets and debentures too. When I talk ROE I am not talking market returns, btw.

Whoever stated the above I wonder if you might explain to me why PIPS returns are different than market returns?

Thank you.

I think he means you should take into account Martian Returns, or the secret FED guaranteed debentures that pay 30-50% a month which I keep hearing about but only people having more than $100 million can buy (they must also be based in Malaysia and have formerly run an MLM to apply).

To the badly mannered visitor: IF ONLY it were just sarcasm. It happens that the secret FED debentures have been mentioned to me by more than one Pipster already.

See, Incognitus? Even you are getting converted...
Soon we will see you beeing one of the PIPS millionaires! :wink:

Incognitus,

If you work in the market, you are just as much a thief as anyone mentioned here. How about hostile takeovers and stocks involved in those takeovers. Think of all of the people you are putting out of work when you are invloved in the brokering of those stocks. All of the money being taken out of peoples pocket for doing nothing wrong other than being unlucky. You hide behind the SEC and whatever it is you think they stand for. The biggest thieves on the face of the Earth reside on Wall Street.

At least we agree in something, Visitante. There's a lot of thievery in the markets (not on hostile takeovers, though ... those are usually benefic for the companies involved and for the economies, if short term painful for the employees). But they're still the best solution available.

In the markets, as in Ponzis, people's greed is often exploited ... that's where the thievery resides, mostly.

Point taken, but when a company offers to pay you a salary forever and you get annual reviews for a raise in salary is it not a promise of stbility and riches to some degree?

When a company sells out because it is the best solution for whomever owns the company and perhaps the higher ups and shareholders, it is still a broken promise. That is stealing money from someones pocket. that is taking the way of life they have been accustomed to away from them without warning. Point being there is a risk in everything in life.

You use the term ponzi very loosely. There are no guarantees in life and if you are willing to take the risk to get into something then take responsibility for that risk. There is no ponzi in PIPS, all of the warnings are there, exactly like they are on Wall Street. You are flirting with moral delima as opposed to opportunity. Ponzi's happen on Wall Street all day every day. The only difference is that it is legal on wall street because someone in the SEC says it is. Who gave the right to one person or one group of people for that matter, to make up the rules?

I suppose now you are going to lecture about law and the way of life that we live by. Your problem is that you are a conformist, you follow the yellow line. You a very traditional and that works for alot of people, but it does not work for everyone. So why must you continue to badmouth a company that you have no information about other than speculation?

We are all adults here and we know what we have got ourselves into. Let people make thier own decisions. And by the way, you are not going to hurt PIPS with this forum nor are you going to save anyone by posting naysay.

Companies no longer provide contracts for life, so the logic doesn't apply (as much as it sucks).

I don't use the term "Ponzi" loosely, I only apply it to situations where one's interest is paid from someone else's capital.

Then there are pyramids and all kinds of stuff. The market sometimes builds "natural" pyramids, such as in the bubble, that are only sustainable as long as more fools keep rushing in higher and higher.

It seems Bryan has a closet filled with former programs that bombed. But of course PIPS is different. He's a Finance Genius now.

Here's an incomplete list ...

CEO Discount Malaysia

The Referral Machine.

Promote-n-Pay

Ads4pay.

nmbc

Allgoods worldwide superstore

AdMania Safelist

Then why are people referred to as "permanent employees?" The fact of the matter is, everything you describe in this forum happens in everyday lifeand in traditional and non traditional investments. PIPS is not the exception that is going to screw the world. Pips is nothing more than an investment vehicle. Get in while it is good and get out before it goes bad. The same as any other investments. There is always someone in an investment who is going to get the short end of the stick. Why are you so worried about something that has absolutely nothing to do with you? Why must you continue to badmouth PIPS.

Lets say you are a bank and you give a loan to John Smith. Well guess what John Smith files for bankruptcy and he doesn't have to pay you bac. Guess what you just got screwed lawfully. You knew what the risks were before you loaned the money, but you loaned it anyway.

Let people in PIPS enjoy it while they can.

Where did you get this list and can you prove he was the pioneer of these programs?

Other investments have a chance, and are sold in a way that people can know the risks they are exposed to.

Ponzi schemes are frauds cause they do not have a chance, ponzi schemes ALL fail, and besides, the organizers of a ponzi scheme NEVER identify it as such, so people do not know the basic risk they are exposed to (for instance, even if PIPS is clever and says that you could lose it all, they deny over and over again they're a ponzi).

And even then, as you can see from Enron, Worldcom, Adelphia, etc, if an invesment is sold in a way as to con you, they turn into frauds themselves and carry prision terms too.

Visitante, the list was given to me "as is", the source seems reliable. I think the list is imcomplete cause it doesn't carry a reference to other known failures, but then again, the list came with the caption "Marsden forgot to include a couple of his former scams for his resume".

Well I did some research and found most of the list to be true..but what was forgotten in the mention of this list is that Bryan was new to the internet marketing systems. Although successfull offline he was still exploring the internet marketing and ideals back then...I think one thing to remember is this was pre-bubble burst.

He even admits to being a "newbie" in online marketing in this article...it's burried a little ways down ..about 1/4 or so down the page

http://www.adlandpro.com/archives/102.htm

So, he's now claiming to have gone from a internet marketing bust to a finance genius able to remunerate funds at 2% per day, right?

Makes a lot of sense.

I did a search on Bryan's name and came up with the following site:

Stop Work Soon
www.stopworksoon.com

This site mentions that Bryan was involved with some of the programs that Incog mention earlier.  This is a pro Brian/PI site.  

I don't know who owns this site.  The who is info for this site is private.
Don't know how accurate their information is and where they got the info.


Warm Regards,
Lucky

In a strange twisted way, we just came to the conclusion that Bryan really is a pro at setting up these things. Amazing. No wizard of finance, but surely a pro at building these internet programs.

Like I said pre-bubble burst..back when he started the online venture it was new to almost everyone.

A history lesson..back in 95/96 AOL opened up the internet to everyone for a flat fee of 19.95 a month for unlimited usage. When that happened the the internet became the hot place to market..I believe Bryan tried his hand in it to try to catch that wave.

"New Mark Business Centres Sdn. Bhd. was formed in 1997 by Bryan Marsden to provide Facilities Management to the Government and Private sectors and has been successful offline providing consultancy and project management services on multi-million dollar projects.

In 1998 the company also started to focus on the global market through the internet and after 3 years of research and development the company launched its first venture in June of 2001"

Unfortunately when he started to go full force the bubble was about to burst. And as I also stated he was alread successful offline.

I think Bryan is just a modern day con man.  He is very good at  marketing and gaining peoples confidence.   He is so likable in person that people really want to believe him.  But that is the gift all great con men.

It is just unfortunate that some people truly believe and they risk too much and will get harmed financially.  It is sad.   But their own greed is part of the problem.   Greed and the lure of easy money can be the down fall of a lot a people.

Lucky

By Chac



I think I wouldn't lost the opportunity to transcribe here what out fellow South African Pipster Chac has left for Incognitus on the PIPS forum.
I believe you all Incognitus followers should read this.

Have a nice weekend!

Incognito:

Care to have a look at this?

incognitus,
Having read thru most of the 19 pages of this "post" I can say with all honesty that you raise some very valid points. Points, and numbers and figures that I myself have asked about for some time now...

However -- funny how there's always the however bit -- I don't buy the altruistic approach that you have put forward here. The general tone of this entire thread is that you have an axe to grind (dessite what you may have stated) and no earthly amount of conviction from another source is going to change your mind. That stated, I have no axe to grind with you or your beliefs about PIPS and it's eventual demise.  I have run some computer models on the formulas in Torben's simulator (I have to crack the sheet first..LOL !!) and they are sustainable over a period of time.  I've also had them reviewed by a math genius and he concurs. No, I wont name names... it's pointless, as you'll have some inane response.  Perhaps you are trying foir that "15 mins of fame" thing.... I don;t know or really care. Sorry...

I'm not nieve enought to believe that PIPS in it's current format will last forever. On the other hand, I've made FAR MORE MONEY out of PIPS this year than I have using your "tradiitional investment vehicles" a la George Soros, Bill Gates, et al.   I don't know if this is a Ponzi or pyramid scheme, but the proofs in the pudding dude.... What this program does is provide ordinary people an opportunity to invest a relatively small amount of money and make some significant returns. It puts them into the 'big' money, money that they could only dream about using the tradional US approach -- IRA, 401K, etc.  I personally know a number of people that have got out of debt and got their lives back together onver the last 2 years from investing in PIPS,.  Is that such a bad thing ??   PIPS also requires that a portion go to charity. $3 million this year alone.  Is that such a bad thing either ?

FWIW - I've met Bryan Marsden...... one of the many people that have.  My opinion?
He's either a very shrewd, very, VERY intelligent con-man, always 'on'.... who also likes to embibe a little -- or he's someone who belives in what he's doing... helping some normal people get something back from a system that has screwed them over for years.  I actually wasn't that impressed with him, his speaking capabilty or his 'vision'.. He's no apparent financial genius (or Jesus) as you posted earlier... if this was such an elaborate scam... why show up all over the planet where people can see you and meet you.  If this is the most elaborate and largest Ponzi scheme ever, the man would never make it to jail. He'd not live that long.  He says he's working outside the box, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt there.....  

BTW - since PIPS to does not offer, or imply sale of, securities (of any kind) to it's members, it does not have to be registered with the SEC.  Period. Read the regs..

So, I'm in... I have no moral reserves about taking money out. AThat's what I'm here TO DO.  And that is NO different than any company that RIF's (Reduction In Force) its employee's 'cus their job has dissapeared and in reality been sent to India, China or Brazil.

I work in the financial services field and let me tell you, the small investor doesn;t stand a chance.  With PIPS they do.... what more do I need to say....
Regards,

With all respect you are not right telling this. They do not guarantee. They almost guarantee ;)

Sorry man  PIPS is not a Malaysian company. According to Bryan it is registered in Panama.

More yet where do you know from that  PIPS 2%/day program is on company balance?

Answers, Answers. I'll do this out of order and leave the largest for later cause I don't have the time now.

First the math riddle. The problem with the math riddle is simple: for the 60:40 ratio to be mantained during the lifetime of the investment, the 60% portion (PI's part) would have to grow at the same speed as the 40% portion (PIPS funds). So the 60:40 ratio does not slow down the "needed" returns at all. Besides, the entire math scheme is based on a wrong assumption - that more than 95% of the capital in the scheme (60% of PI's funds plus the 12:1 margin) is dedicated to providing the outstanding returns of the other 5% in capital (PIPS funds). This makes no sense, speccially when those PIPS funds could be had at 8% per year instead of 500%+ per year.

Also, the use of huge leverage to increase returns has been discussed here already.

Second, the "math genius" question. If you had a math genius going over the numbers and he declared that it's sustainable over time, then he needs to go back to the math books again. It's very obviously not sustainable because of the heavily compounding nature of the scheme, in just a few years there would be more money in PIPS than in the world, and no math genius would ignore that.

As for "offering securities", no papers need to change hands for there to be a security offered. Indeed, most securities nowadays are dematerialized, they don't exist phisically. A "security" is nothing more than a contract, and PIPS is a contract too. PIPS is "sold" to US residents, that's enough for the SEC to look into it - granted they can't do a thing about PI but they can go after whoever promotes the thing in the US.

Yes, PIPS makes it possible for little money to turn into large amounts of money. That's its main lure. That's also the reason it's a fraud: cause consistently turning little money into large money in a short period of time with no volatility and no work is impossible.

"I always find it interesting to see how people try to question PIPS’ viability by comparing our returns to those generated in the stock market ( we’ve seen a few these types lately ). The logic to their argument is simple…”how can PIPS offer such high returns when global powerhouse companies like Wal-mart, Citibank, Microsoft etc can’t even do that?”

The answer to this is really quite simple…we get paid out of the company’s “revenue” ( All the money generated by the company ) while stockholders get paid out of the “profits” ( what’s left over of the revenue after paying out all the expenses ).

Comparing the 2 is like comparing apples to oranges.

If we look at Citibank’s financial statement for the year ending Dec 31 2003, http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=C&annual we see they had revenue of $94.7 Billion…

From that revenue they had to pay out $51.1 Billion in operating expenses ( this would include things such as salaries, leases, etc. )

That left $43.6 Billion left as their “operating income” and after paying taxes and interest there is $17.8 Billion left over in Profit or “earnings”.

Now Citigroup has a little over 6 Billion shares issued which means that each share represents around $3.15 in profit; this is also known as its “Earnings Per Share” ( EPS ).

The actual price of a stock will be a multiple of its EPS and is determined by what the market is willing to pay. Citigroup for instance has a current stock price of $46.21 which means that it is trading at 14.66 times its Earnings Per Share ( $3.15 x 14.66 = $46.21 )…this is called a “Price Earnings Ratio”. A P/E Ratio of 14.66 is quite normal for the financial services industry

How likely is it for Citigroup to see a huge spike in profits?

Revenues could increase drastically but in those cases the operating expenses usually rise as well, which means that the money left over ( profits ) would not be greatly impacted. And in normal market conditions a stock price will only go up if its Earnings Per Share goes up.

Now let’s look at PIPS…

Instead of sharing in the company’s profit, we receive our payment directly out of the Revenue…it would be considered as an “operating expense” to the company!! This is no different an employee of Citigroup receiving his/her wage…remember that Citigroup had $51.1 BILLION in operating expenses in 2003.

The reason our “returns” don’t fluctuate is because they are a defined “expense” and in no way are they tied to the “profit” of the company as they come out of the revenue.

Think of it this way…if you have an employee of Citigroup that makes $100,000/yr he/she will earn that salary regardless of whether or not the company turns a profit. The salary is an expense and is paid out of the revenues. The shareholder on the other hand only benefits if the company is profitable.

From my meetings with Bryan, he was very clear that PIPS has no debt. Of course they have to pay their staff and they have to pay us ( the debenture holders ) but the revenue they are bringing in ( from their MANY profitable ventures ) far exceeds their expenses, which includes the payment of our ROI.

When Bryan mentions that PIPS as a company has averaged 10% growth/mth for the first half of the year and 17%/mth since then, it is not hard to understand why!

Another thing to consider is that PIPS is a privately held company ( Bryan is the controlling shareholder ) and the retained earning are invested back into the company which only makes it stronger. When PIPS does goes public ( 2 year time frame ) we will all have the opportunity to become shareholders which will allow us to share in the profits of the company which will be over and above our ROI!!

The bottom line is that the PIPS model makes sense. People hear the returns and automatically try to fit this program into a “box” that they understand, which simply can’t be done. You can’t compare PIPS ( and our returns by extension ) to an equity investment because that’s not what it is. You can’t compare PIPS to a “hedge fund” cuz that’s not what it is.

It’s unfortunate but PIPS will not be understood nor will it be accepted by everyone. So let them write their reports and tell us that our collapse is imminent…it doesn’t matter one bit. This company is here to stay and gets stronger with each passing day. "

Now for the large answer ... My comments on his comments are underlined.



HI OLLI / INCOGNITUS

I HAVE READ A LOT OF WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY AND I AM NOT ANGRY WITH YOU. IN FACT I THINK THAT YOUR COMMENTS ARE INTELLIGENT AND WELL-EXPRESSED. I ALSO THINK THAT SOME OF THE RESPONSES YOU HAVE RECEIVED FROM MY FELLOW PIPSTERS ARE CHILDISH AND RUDE. SORRY ABOUT THAT. I WISH TO OFFER A RESPECTFUL RESPONSE TO WHAT YOU HAVE SAID. I’M NOT SAYING THAT PIPS IS GOING TO LAST FOREVER, BUT I THINK THAT IT IS MORE LEGIT THAN YOU ARE GIVING IT CREDIT FOR. MY RESPONSES TO YOUR COMMENTS ARE IN CAPS.

I've seen PIPS companies registered in http://www.ssm.gov.my/findroc.htm, doesn't that prove they are registered with the Malaysian SEC and legal?
No. That site is a commercial registery. In every country when you incorporate a company you have to register it somewhere, but that register does not involve any scrutiny of the company's activities. It is NOT the same as registering an investment vehicle with the SEC or another securities regulator, where due diligence by the regulator is performed. The only thing being registered at http://www.ssm.gov.my/findroc.htm proves, is that the companies exist, and that was never in doubt.

The Malaysian Securities regulator is at http://www.sc.com.my, and if you search their site for "Pips", you will find nothing.

PIPS DOESN’T DEAL WITH SECURITIES SO WHY SHOULD IT BE REGISTERED WITH A SECURITIES REGULATOR? ALSO, MALAYSIA IS NOT WHERE IT IS REGISTERED.

PIPS does deal with securities, as defined by Merriam-Webster: "an evidence of debt or of ownership (as a stock certificate or bond)". PIPS is by their words a loan, and hence an evidence of debt (even if they don't give you any papers stating it, they show it in the computer for you for sure). As for it not being registered in Malaysia, then you'd have to go looking in Panama (if it's still there). Point is, seeing it in the list mentioned about company registered in Malaysia meant nothing, what you need is to see the fund registered with a Securities Regulator. Since you can't, that's highly suspicious.

Where did all the Trolls go? & Why are all the Trolls just a few days old?
There are some things one shouldn't need to explain, but here it goes. Trolls are gone, and Trolls are only a few days old for the same reason: they get deleted and banned by the PIPS Forum administration, the same way that posts containing unconfortable facts get deleted.

THERE ARE PLENTY OF TROLLS THAT ARE NOT DELETED, YOU BEING AN EXAMPLE OF ONE. ANYWAY, IF I RAN A FORUM I WOULD ALSO DELETE TROLLS BECAUSE THEY CAUSE A NEGATIVE SPIRIT. YOUR ARTICLE HAS BEEN IN THE FORUM FOR DAYS NOW.

I was deleted and banned. Causing a "negative spirit" is a problem why? Cause it makes less people join and thus endangers the Ponzi? I guess the article has been there for days cause there's no one moderating it now, nothing is getting deleted, and it's going pretty nutty with even people close to PIPS crying that they're not getting their money on time.

Why doesn't Bryan/pureinvestor sue me for defamation?
It's simple. Cause the first thing I'd ask for to make my point, would be bank statments and auditor's reports. And with those, the fraud wouldn't last for more than 10 seconds. And any court would understand my request. Besides, I would also use the figure of "litigância de má fé" (bad faith litigation) to get me some money out of him, if he did sue.

I DON’T THINK BRIAN HAS THE TIME TO TRY AND SUE SOME ANONYMOUS GUY FROM WHO KNOWS WHERE? FACE IT, OLLI, THIS WAS A WEAK ARGUMENT!

Bryan has the time to moderate the board, and he wouldn't have the time to at least respond - like you did - to some very obvious questions? No matter the legal part. He doesn't sue cause he'd have to produce documents that would blow up his own scheme. Not suing is really his rational response.

ROI is paid daily, isn’t that a proof that PIPS is for real?
No. ROI is not money. ROI is just a book keeping entry. That means pureinvestor.com can pay as much ROI as it wants, forever. They could “pay” more ROI than the entire World money supply, cause they can manufacture it out of think air. If needed be, they could pay ROI at a rate of 1000% per day, and PIPS would still be viable (as long as withdrawals were kept low in spite of a surging ROI).

IF YOU SET YOUR REINVESTMENT TO 100% WITHDRAWAL THEN THE ROI WILL BE IN THE FORM OF MONEY, AND MANY HAVE ALREADY DONE THIS AND HAVE CASH IN HAND TO PROVE IT.

That is not the point. Withdrawals are at any point much smaller than aggregate, accumulated, ROI. My point is that ROI does not exist, only withdrawals do. Once withdrawals start outpacing intakes, the Ponzi is at risk. Without withdrawals, the ROI could be infinite and the Ponzi would still survive. Hence, ROI is not money.

Pureinvestor.com has offices, isn’t that proof that PIPS is for real?
No. The most successful Ponzi Schemes all had offices. Charles Ponzi himself had offices, and the MMM scheme in Russia had as many as 30 delegations and regularly used mainstream media to publicize its scheme. So having offices doesn’t prove PIPS is for real.

FAIR ENOUGH. BUT IT DOESN’T MEAN IT’S NOT FOR REAL EITHER.

Yep, you're right.


PIPS pays its withdrawals and there are a lot of people that have withdrawn more money than they put it, doesn’t that prove PIPS is for real?

No. Every successful Ponzi scheme pays their withdrawals for a while, or they wouldn’t be able to attract more investors. And in large Ponzi schemes, a lot of people withdraw considerably more than what they put in, that also attracts new investors and gives credibility to the scheme. But it proves nothing, cause a Ponzi scheme can easily be kept alive as long as withdrawals are smaller than the money intake from new investors (and even for a short period after that point is breached).

BUT THE WITHDRAWALS HAVE BEEN MUCH LARGER THAN THE MONEY INTAKE FROM NEW INVESTORS!

No they haven't. At least not until recently. If you do the math on the numbers that are available, you'll notice that up until October, the PIPS 2% fund was growing faster than the ROI alone would grow. That's a clue that money coming in was outpacing money going out. In October they seems to level. That's a clue as to why withdrawals became much more difficult in October. And then came the Migration, etc, etc.

PIPS has 11 brick and mortar companies making money for PIPS members, doesn’t that prove PIPS is for real?

No. The most successful Ponzi schemes usually get credibility from some underlying business. Charles Ponzi for instance based his scheme on a supposedly very profitable arbitrage between stamps of different currencies. Having “real” businesses takes away the focus from the obvious impossibility of providing the returns promised out of trading the markets. It is important to take the focus out of this, cause many people are aware that hundreds percent returns in the markets do not come easily or reliably.

YOU ARE RIGHT THAT IT IS HARD TO GET SUCH LARGE RETURNS THROUGH CONVENTIONAL INVESTING, BUT HAVING BEEN IN THE PROPERTY BUSINESS MYSELF I HAVE FOUND THE HUGE POWER OF PROPERTY INVESTING: AND A LARGE % OF PIPS’ RETURNS IS BASED ON PROPERTY.

Maybe, but as someone stated, it's easier to get large returns on property when the market is going up than when it's going down. Also, it's going up there are few foreclosures so you can't make much money in them, if it's going down there are many foreclosures, but they are hard to sell as well.

Anyway, PIPS makes some other irrealistic claims in the property field as well, such as financing people at rates 30% below the market. I mean, they're financing themselves at rates more than 5000% above the market, and then they turn around and lend it to people at 30% below the market? Doesn't seem a way to make money. Doesn't make sense.

It is, must I say, another clue as to the fraudulent nature of the scheme.


PIPS is audited twice yearly, doesn’t that prove they are legit?
No. For starters, even if they are audited, the auditor’s report is not made available. If the auditor’s report is not made available, you cannot know what the auditor’s conclusion was. They could be audited and the auditor could say “this is not viable” and yet, you would not know it. Until the auditor’s report is made available, this means nothing. When the auditor’s report is made available, you’d still have to phone or contact the auditing firm to know whether the report really came from them.

AN AUDITING FIRM THAT DISCOVERS A PONZI SCHEME WOULD BE OBLIGED TO REPORT IT AND MAKE IT PUBLIC. IT WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE. ON CHECKING THE INTERNET I HAVE NOT FOUND ONE OFFICIAL WEBSITE THAT CONDEMNS PIPS. PLENTY THAT COMMEND IT THOUGH!

Yes, that's why it's easy to see why there are no auditing reports made available. Cause there is no audits whatsoever (or, if they audit, they'll audit everything BUT the PIPS fund). Fact remains that there are no audit reports to be seen.

Also, you haven't noticed any official website condemning PIPS cause nnobody knew about PIPS until very little time ago. They're starting to know now.

Bryan is all over the world, he doesn’t hide, doesn’t that prove they are legit?
No. The most successful Ponzi schemes, like Charles Ponzi’s or MMM, all had public, well known officials. So having Bryan be well known proves nothing.

THE WORLD IS A MUCH SMALLER PLACE THAN IN THE DAYS OF CHARLES PONZI (IN THE 20’S I BELIEVE). BACK THEN THERE WASN’T QUITE THE SAME COMMUNICATION NETWORK THAT WE HAVE TODAY. HIS SCHEME’S WERE CONFINED TO PARTS OF THE US. IF PIPS WAS A PONZI BRIAN WOULDN’T HAVE ANY PLACE TO HIDE IN THE WORLD BECAUSE HE HAS INVOLVED SO MANY COUNTRIES AND PEOPLE IN IT. THERE ARE NO PONZIS THAT EXIST ON SUCH A LARGE SCALE. IT WOULD BE SUICIDAL.

You missed the point. Other famous scammers were very well know as well, and that didn't stop them. Why would it stop Bryan? Bryan has a past of making MLM's and stuff like that. Yet you choose to believe that he transformed himself into a finance genius, when it's obvious that he just came up with an upgraded pyramid scheme after trying several times.


PIPS is not a MLM, doesn’t that prove they are not a Ponzi?

No. A Ponzi scheme might not be based in a MLM (multi level marketing organization). Indeed, Charles Ponzi, the original, has nothing to do with an MLM. The defining characteristic of a Ponzi scheme is paying some member’s returns from another member’s capital.

FAIR ENOUGH.

Ok

Rich people can get PIPS returns, you only need enough money, isn’t it?
No. The rich can get into investment vehicles that usually outperform the traditional investments like Mutual Funds. These are called Hedge Funds, they are more lightly regulated and at least for the past decade or so they’ve been able to outperform almost every other category.
However, as you can check in www.hedgefund.com, hedge funds only go so far. A good return in a hedge fund comes to an average of 10-20% yearly, and the very best might have runs averaging 30-40% over a number of years. But none of them gets 100% or more average, and they all have a lot of volatility in their returns.
PIPS, however, is promising hundreds percent of return without ANY volatility (the returns are achieved in a straight line). This is not possible anywhere in the investment world, no matter how much some might harp.

THIS ARGUMENT IS BASED IN YOUR OWN EMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO AN INVESTMENT SCHEME WHICH SEEMS TO PROVIDE UNUSUALLY HIGH RETURNS. GRANTED IT DOES SEEM IMPOSSIBLE, BUT WE’VE ALL BEEN THROUGH THAT STAGE OF QUESTIONING AND WE’VE MOVED ON TO SEE THE EVIDENCE: PEOPLE ARE GETTING PAID! NEVER MAKE DECISIONS BASED ON EMOTION, OLLIE…

You are forgetting what was said a few points ago: getting paid means nothing in the scheme of things. Everybody will get paid until it implodes. In focusing in the "getting paid", you ignored the obvious: that it's unsustainable and impossible, and thus a scam in all likelihood.

If any doubt remained, a look at a Forbes listing would remove it: the richest people in the world are listed there, and their networth doesn’t increase nearly as much as anyone using PIPS could theoretically achieve. If they are rich, why can’t they do it? And if PIPS can also be subscribed by rich people, why is it that they don’t (the largest contribution according to Bryan was $300000)? Cause rich people usually know what they’re getting into, that’s why.

SO WHY HAVEN’T THEY TOLD THE REST OF US?

They have told the rest of us. They invest in hedge funds, mutual funds, their own funds, their own companies, etc, etc. They do NOT invest in secret debentures and programs offering 30%-50% per month.

The 11 brick and mortar companies make the returns possible, don’t they?
No. Most of the 11 companies listed by pureinvestor are starting up or growing. Companies at that stage have to invest, and thus they consume money, they don’t throw off money. So they can’t be making the money that pureinvestor claims they are.

I STARTED IN THE PROPERTY INDUSTRY LESS THAN A YEAR AGO (BUYING AND SELLING PROPERTY) AND I HAVE ALREADY MADE A TOTAL OF APPROX
$100 000 AFTER PUTTING DOWN LESS THAN HALF THAT! THAT’S MORE THAN 100% IN LESS THAN A YEAR, AND I’M JUST A BEGINNER. THE NEWNESS OF A COMPANY HAS NO BARING ON HOW IT CAN PERFORM. IT’S ABOUT BEING WISE.

While that would be true for someone just trading properties, it wouldn't be true for someone opening bistros or making movies. You invest first, you see the profits, if any, later. Later has not arrived for PIPS, yet theoretically the ROI moves up at 2% per day every day. Think about it.

Furthermore, PIPS is supposed to be a loan. Now, profitable companies can easily finance themselves at market rates, something around 8-10%. WHY would such profitable companies choose to finance themselves at hundreds percent per year? Answer: they wouldn’t.

THEY WOULD IF IT MEANS A FASTER GROWING COMPANY WITH UNLIMITED CAPITAL COMING IN TO FURTHER GROW THE COMPANY. THERE IS A LIMIT TO WHAT A LOANING INSTITUTION WILL GIVE YOU. ANOTHER IMPORTANT POINT TO NOTE IS THAT PIPS IS COMMUNITY ORIENTATED AND ONE OF THE AIMS OF IT IS TO HELP PEOPLE. THIS IS BEING ACHIEVED ON A DAILY BASIS. FIRST TIME I’VE HEARD OF A PONZI SCEME THAT DONATES TO CHARITY!

If their businesses were as profitable as they'd have to be to pay the 2% per day for PIPS funds, then they'd have access to limitless capital at 8% per year as well ... and what's more, is that if they were so profitable, pretty soon they wouldn't even need outside capital (contrast that with an exponentially growing PIPS fund).

Why do the 11 brick and mortar companies pay 500%+ for the loans instead of 8-10% if they are profitable?
Cause, either they are not profitable, or they are profitable but they’re only an excuse to make members think PIPS returns are possible.

REFER TO ANSWER ABOVE. ALSO, YOU SEEM TO HAVE A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT PIPS. ARE THESE FACTS YOU’RE SPEWING OUT OR YOUR OWN SPECULATION?

What fact has I "spewed" that sounds like speculation to you? The fact that PIPS pays more than 500% per year for the funds (a lot more, but I was being optimistic there), or the fact that if it can pay those kinds of returns then it could finance itself at 8%?


This question has been asked to Bryan, and obviously he didn’t have any sensible answer for it.

HE ACTUALLY DOES IF YOU READ THE FORUM YOU MIGHT FIND SOME OF HIS THREADS.

He never answered these questions directly. And the "search the foruns" answer is too lame, with every PIPSter always claiming it instead of answering the questions.

But, PIPS has been reviewed by the SEC, hasn’t it?
No. PIPS has not been reviewed by the SEC since the SEC makes no mention of it. If SEC approves, licenses or reviews any business, they publicize it. It’s their job. That’s they way they foster investor confidence. If you want to know if some broker or investment vehicle is legit when they claim to have been registered/licensed/reviewed by the SEC, you just have to check www.sec.gov for them. PIPS does not show, hence PIPS wasn’t reviewed by the SEC.
Granted, PIPS is based in Malaysia and is outside SEC’s jurisdiction. However, people promoting PIPS in the USA aren’t.

THERE ARE SOME OTHER INDEPENDENT WEBSITES THAT RATE PIPS HIGHLY.

Are you saying that there being some independent nuts rating PIPS highly is comparable to SEC or any other Securities Regulator going over PIPS and giving it the seal of approval?

Is PIPS audited by Ernst & Young?
No. PI claims that they will be audited by Ernst & Young in the future, but they haven’t been yet. And even if they were audited by Ernst & Young, you would still need to see the auditor’s report for it to have any value.

REFER TO PREVIOUS POINT ON AUDITING

PIPS doesn't disclose the auditor's report. As far as we can tell, they are not audited at all (and I don't mean the real companies, I mean the PIPS fund).

Is the Pureinvestor 5YIP insured by Allianz?

No. PI’s own staff do not confirm that even though Bryan seems to have said it at some meetings. PI’s own staff claims that the insurer is still being selected (even though the program is open and supposedly insured already). We do not find it likely that any well known insurer would insure such an mathematically impossible plan, but that remains to be seen. Meanwhile, contacts directly with Allianz have also produced the same answer: they are not insuring the program, they never heard of the program. they’ve been getting a lot of calls about the program and they think it’s a fraud.

THE 5YIP IS UNDERWRITTEN FOR THE AMOUNT THAT ONE PUTS IN, NOT THE RETURNS. NO INSURANCE COMPANY IS DUMB ENOUGH TO INSURE INVESTMENT RETURNS.

As per PIPS staff, the 5YIP is not insured yet. They are still choosing the insurer. Fact is, Bryan claimed several times Allianz was insuring it, and Allianz isn't. Allianz would look at the scheme and would never insure any part of it - I didn't mean the returns, either.

You should be suspicious when a company sells a product as insured and later you know - through that same company - that the product really isn't insured YET. What if it blew up right at the begining, he?

Is PIPS sustainable for 5 years?
No. For PIPS to be sustainable for 5 years would imply that the present capital allocated to it by members (approximately 300 million USD) would grow to the size of a large nation’s GDP in just 5 years, 3-6 times larger than Microsoft, 4-8 times larger than Wal Mart. And that in 5 years is simply impossible. Which means that PIPS crashes before then. Out own opinion, based in similar programs, on the numbers publicly available, and the ongoing withdrawal problems is that PIPS will last anywhere from a few weeks to one year.

WELL IT’S BEEN ABOUT A YEAR AND TWO FUTURE CONFERENCES ARE PAID FOR AND PLANNED FOR THE NEXT 2 YEARS. AGAIN AN EMOTIONAL REACTION TO A NEW PROGRAMME WHICH GOES AGAINST ALL WHAT WE’VE LEARNED, BUT WE NEED TO ADMIT THAT JUST BECAUSE IT HASN’T HAPPENED BEFORE IT DOESN’T MEAN IT CAN’T HAPPEN.

You really didn't answer any of what was in the question,. It's not about a programme going against all that we've learned, it's about a program going against cold hard numbers and being impossible because of it.

Does PIPS do its own trading?
The part of the returns that Pureinvestor claims doesn’t come from the 11 companies, is supposed to come from trading. Do they do their own trading?

No. They, according to their FAQ’s, “Pureinvestor Trading is contracted out to independent Traders on a performance basis”. So where are these independent traders? As we have seen, the hedge funds themselves cannot meet the kind of returns PIPS offers, and they have the absolute best traders, yet pureinvestor claims to have found not one, but several, traders that are able to outperform the entire world and yet remain anonymous. This is impossible, cause there are many much larger than PIPS hedge funds that would contract these traders if they existed, and would pay them more than PIPS ever could. Yet, the hedgies can’t find and contract them, so they can’t match PIPS’s returns. This is another clue about the truth.

THIS IS A VALID POINT BUT I THINK THE STRENGTH IN PIPS IS THE DIVERSE CROSS-SECTION OF INVESTMENTS, ESP PROPERTY!

You think that, but you've got no numbers to fall back on. In fact, you are accepting an impossible claim at face value.

Do IT Migrations always produce this kind of trouble?

No. How many times have you seen a $750 million online business go offline for more than a week just cause they were migrating servers? Zero. This is a very un-professional organization at work here, yet everybody is believing that they are producing returns that no one else in the world is able to replicate.

GRANTED PIPS IS NOT THE MOST ORGANISED OR SLICK ORGANISATION, AND THE MIGRATION WAS FRUSTRATING, BUT THIS DOESN’T MEAN IT’S A PONZI. BASED ON THIS LOGIC MY BANK IS A PONZI! EVERYTHING IS FINE IN OUR ACCOUNTS AND THERE’S ALWAYS SOMEONE ON THE END OF THE LINE WILLING TO LISTEN AND HELP IF THERE’S AN ERROR. THE ADMIN SIDE IS GETTING STRONGER.

That's not an answer for the question asked.

Warren Buffett did it too, so it’s possible to get these returns, right?
No. If you visit www.berkshirehathaway.com, and read the latest letter to his shareholders, you will notice that over his entire 29 year history, Berkshire Hathaway achieved a 22.2% yearly compounded return. And his best year was just under 60%. He also had a lot of volatility.


PIPS claims to be able to produce 500% or more per year, with no volatility. That the difference to Berkshire Hathaway is so staggering should in itself be self explaining as to how possible it is.

TIMES ARE CHANGING WITH MODERN INVESTMENT METHODS LIKE THE WWW.

Modern investment methods do not change basic math and what is possible or not.

If PIPS is so bad, why are there so many people ready to defend it?
You have to understand the nature of a Ponzi scheme. In a Ponzi scheme, the earlier members get paid with the money from the later entrants. So, everyone invested in PIPS has a large incentive to suppress any doubts about PIPS, so that the money keeps flowing in. If it were a legitimate business, the participants couldn’t care less about naysayers.

I WAS NEVER AT ANY TIME TOLD TO SUPPRESS DOUBTS WHEN I JOINED PIPS, NOR DO I FEEL OBLIGED TO NOW.

You don't feel obliged to suppress doubt, but you felt obliged to answer this document cause the organization itself didn't do it. That's a form of defense. Maybe you've convinced a few people that PIPS really is legit with your answers, making them put a little more money in and making it last a few more days. Then it implodes and is seen for the scam of it. How would you look upon your actions then? You'd have contributed to the furthering of the scam.

As it stands, they MUST care and suppress dissent, because dissent might keep new entrants from joining,
and that would speed up the end of the scheme.

BUT AFTER DAYS OF BEING ON THE FORUM WITH YOUR REPETITIVE BANTERING YOU HAVE NOT BEEN BANNED AND NEITHER HAVE OTHER SCEPTICS LIKE YOU. YOU HAVE NOT BEEN SUPPRESSED EITHER, AND PEOPLE ARE STILL JOINING DAILY BY THEIR HUNDREDS!

I have been banned. Since then, however, the Forums seem to have lost any kind of monitoring and have descended into chaos with people screaming about their withdrawals.

PIPS is part of a new internet phenomena called the HYIP (High Yield Investment Programs). Virtually all of these are scams, but since PIPS outlasted most of its peers, it is said that PIPS isn’t a scam.

I WOULD LIKE TO CHALLENGE YOUR STATEMENT THAT MOST HYIP’s ARE SCAMS. THERE’S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HIGH RISK AND SCAM. YOU SHOULD LOG ONTO HYIPinvestment.com AND SEE ALL THE HYIP COMPANIES RECOMMENDED THERE.

Login to talkgold and see all the ones blowing up. They're claiming that 95% of them are blowing up. 95% would be the same as 100%, cause there's always new ones cropping up (and thus alive for a while). It's also funny that all these "high risk" programs promise a concrete return (daily, weekly, monthly, hourly), whereas in the next step down in risk you never know what your return is going to be.

However, PIPS has the same trait as all the other programs, namely promising an impossible yield over time. That it lasted longer comes from just 2 reasons:
1) It is harder to withdraw money from PIPS than from other programs;
2) In a large population, some of the programs are bound to last longer.

THANKS FOR THOSE OPINIONS.

Ok

It should be said that PIPS is not alone in lasting longer either. A huge program folded last year, Nova Lights, that lived for about the same time as PIPS. It was, obviously enough, a scam. It also had server migrations, withdrawal difficulties, cheerleaders and everything else.


I CHECKED THIS ONE OUT ON THE INTERNET AND FOUND WHAT THIS WEBSITE (http://www.invesorama.wtcsites.com/closed.htm) HAD TO SAY ABOUT NOVA LIGHTS:
“WE ALL KNOW THIS PROGRAM WAS CERTAINLY NO TURKEY! WE MADE PLENTY ON THIS PROGRAM AND HAVE NO HARD FEELINGS TOWARDS ANYONE! MANY GOT CAUGHT BY JUST GETTING IN OR INCREASING THE SIZE OF THEIR ACCOUNT AT THE WRONG TIME. THIS IS THE NATURE OF THE BEAST THAT WE ALL LOVE BUT HATE TO ADMIT IT! “

ALL GOOD INVESTMENTS CAN COME TO AN END BUT THERE’S NO HARM IN MAKING THE MOST OF THEM WHILE THEY’RE ALIVE!

YOU HAVE SOME GOOD POINTS, OLLI, AND YOUR SCEPTICISM IS NOT UNREASONABLE, BUT YOU MUST BE PREPARED TO ADMIT THAT THIS COULD HELP PEOPLE FOR A WHILE. LIKE ALL INVESTMENTS, PEOPLE ARE ADVISED AGAINST INVESTING MONEY WHICH COULD CAUSE THEM FINANCIAL HARDSHIPS. THEIR FAULT IF THEY DO. SO I THINK YOUR WORK IS DONE AROUND HERE NOW. LET’S SIT BACK AND SEE WHEN HAPPENS!

Nova Lights was a scam. Are you saying that because some can make money in the scam then it's defensable? Then you are falling into what I said: older members DO have the motivation to defend the scam, as they are benefiting from it.

It does not change the nature of the scam/ponzi. In the end, it's a fraud.



HOPE THIS HELPS. CHAC
_________________
Chac

To the last visitante. All that text does not address two basic points, and it thus a flop:
1) That the companies if profitable could finance themselves at 8% instead of 500%+ per year;
2) That if PIPS is a cost, it would be an exponential cost, thus always bringing the downfall of the company (that's why ponzis don't work, anyway).

Here is a good question. Why would a perfectly legit company from the USA verbally confirm to hunreds of people at some of the U.S. conventions that PIPS was legit. The company I am refering to is Nevada Corporate Headqurters http://www.nchinc.com/

Here is their Better Business Burea report. http://worf.usshurdman.com/~vegas/commonreport.html?compid=53419

I makes no sense that a company of this nature would be involved in a scam. They would be shut down if they were. The name of one of the reps from this company is James Hughey that spoke at one of the conventions I attended. He verbally said that they have someone that does Due Delligence for their company and they found that PIPS was for real and legit.

Maybe contacting this company and see if they can put you in contact with the person that did the DD on PIPS to see what info you can dig up to either prove or disprove your theory.

Give me an e-mail address and I'll contact them with a few questions.

BTW, there authorities seem to finally be catching up ... here's what I just found in the PIPS forum:

Don't have an e-mail adress of the person but I am sure you can find some contact info on the website. It might be a general support e-mail but all you got to do is ask the name of the persons direct e-mail address.

I checked the website, but didn't find a general e-mail. I did find some customer service e-mails and stuff, but those didn't seem like the right path to ask this kind of question.

Well I have given all the info I can give you you...if you don't want to contact them and ask for James's direct e-mail or even call them to put you in direct contact that is your issue.

Now, I did find telephone numbers and all, but you forget that no one is paying me to do this, so I am not about to take on un-necessary costs to clear the issues for other people.

I would handle the issue through e-mail, if someone gave me a simple e-mail, there are customer forms and contacts there, but I am not a customer.

Incog

I could not find an email address for James Hughey  He is associated with the web page www.nchinc.com.  They specialize in setting up Nevada Corporations for individuals.   T

They have an Affiliate Program and a Pioneer member of PIPS has recommended that all US PIPS members contact them and set up an Nevada Corporation.   They are trying to avoid US taxes.  

Although I think this is a very bad approach to your taxes and I would not recommend it to anyone.  The affiliate who has recommend this is probably making a lot of money.    At one point, NCH was receiving so many calls from US PIP members that they set up a number just for PIPS.   James Hughey now is a regular member of Brian's road show.  James makes an appearance at the meeting and recommends that US people set up a Nevada Corporation to reduce their tax obligations.

Considering how much money NCH is making off of PIPS members I would not trust their DD of PIPS.

Lucky

But why would this company risk being shut down on a scam...makes no sense..They have been in business for 12 years.

Someone else brought up those points, too...




and, the answer:

...and, Incognitus, you still claim the 500-600% per year scenario.  As shown by those calculations, the real return needed, even after compounding, is 11.84% PER YEAR.

NCH is in no danger of being shut down.   Their business is setting up corporations for individuals.  There is nothing wrong with that.

The US has laws against PONZI but these laws only apply to the US.  The US government has no control over a company that operates in another country.    The US could not arrest Brian even if it was proved that PIPS was a PONZI.  The US simply can not apply their laws to another country.  

Brian has even said this himself.  He said he selected the country to register his business in that was out of the control of US and Great Britian laws.    This does not prove that Brian is doing anything illegal.  It just proves that he is aware of US, Great Britian, and International laws and makes informed decisions who where it is best to locate his business.

So it really does no good to report him or PIPS to US authorities.  Nor should you feel like the US authorities approves of PIPS because Brian can travel in the US.   The fact is the US simply does not have the authority to do anything to PIPS or Brian.


I

NCH would be shut down if this was a scam. They may not get PIPS but they would go after any companies involved with it. Theyare publicly admitting to people it is real so we have witnesses as well as on tape. If PIPS was a scam people would go after any US company responsible in convincing this was the real thing.

I still disagree about NCH.  I don't think they will get shut down.  

From what I have had heard them say is that they could not find anything wrong when they complete their DD.  But the next sentence was that everyone should do their own DD.  Also, when I have heard them speak they were not trying to recruit members for PIPS.   They did recommend that members of PIPS set up a Nevada Corporation.  Their is nothing illegal about that - They did not promise to anyone that PIPS was legit.  They just said they couldn't find anything and that everyone should due their own DD.

That was my experience with them.  They may have told you something else.   But if I was interview by the US gov.  I would have to say that they did not try to recruit me and that they did not make any promises about PIPS.  They did recommend that I do my own DD.  

Based on my experience I do not think they will get shut down.  If PIPS was proved to be a PONZI they would just say they were fooled liked everyone else.

But that is just my opinion.  If you feel better about PIPS because NHC DD did not find anything - so be it.   That's OK with me.  

Lucky

Regarding the math issue, the investor would NOT be the only one that had to receive a fixed %, or else PI would have to "find" funds to match the growing funds in the investor account. Without those funds, those assumptions about the 60:40 ratio fail.

regarding the 11.something% per year/500-600-700% per year comment: there are no miracles in finance, for a part of the funds to earn 700% per year, someone has to pay 700% on THOSE funds per year. It makes no sense to say that there are 20X the money invested making hay to pay those 700%.

That's why we have lawyers  :twisted:

I'm not the math wizard, but I believe those funds that you say PIPS must "find" are funded by all of the expiring units.  The units mature after 180 days, and those funds go to PIPS.





You obviously haven't looked at the math, then.  In that example, a daily ROI of 0.0444% is needed, and that is logically explained...

0.0444% X 266 trading days in a year =  11.84%

Off Topic from PIPS discussion:

Incog,

Do you know of any legit hedge funds that work with small investors. Say 5000 or so.   Do they require larger investments?

Thanks,
Lucky

Here is a good one. While PIPS is going to have their own in house legal team to start providing members with the ability to set up IBCs later on. NCH is going to be "partnering up" with PIPS to provide help with the Nevada Corporate legal work. There is a stronger connection between them.

Visitante, the math is wrong. The expiring units ARE factored into the 500-700% yearly returns PIPS provides to the members. Hence, PIPS must pay 500-700% on those funds.

For PI to match the PIPS funds at 60:40, PI has to grow its own funds at the same rate.

And in the end, it simply makes no sense to say that they only have to earn 10-12% a year cause they are leveraging it no matter how many times, cause that's like saying, here is 20-25X the money you invested, producing returns just for you. It's a stupid preposition.

Lucky, there start to appear "fund of funds" hedge funds that allow smaller investors in. However, I am not a hedge fund afficionado, since I usually am outperforming the hedge funds.

And being in a "fund of funds" itself is less appealing, too. And to get into a hedge fund you'd need upwards of $1mn to begin with. And not all hedge funds are good, either.

Incog,

Thanks for the info.  I myself could not find any hedge fund that would accept small amounts.   Thanks for your confirmation.

Do you have any finance threads in english other than PIPS?  (Sorry for the off topic post)

I currently have a small amount that I trade short term.   I just have 10,000 for this.    I am just learning.  I make a little and loose a little.  But usually over a month I come out positive by just small amounts.   My biggest mistake has been not stopping the lost fast enough.   Hopefully I am learning.

Currently I am reading Trend Following by Michael Covel.   Do you recommend any books.  I will need English books.  So far I have been unable to learn a second language.  I am not the smartest person.

Thanks for the help.
Lucky

Yes, there are other threads in english, and soon the whole site will have an english version, together with more english articles.

Posted a new update to the article (update 5).

Incognitus,

Explain this, directly of the Philippines Govt. site.....

http://www.dole.gov.ph/news/pressreleases2004/november04/352.htm

Thanks

We already knew they were giving out to charity, it doesn't change much, it's a "leak" in the system, apparently that leak was for $100k, which is very small given the kind of values we're talking about (hundreds of millions).

I was thrilled by something in that article, but it might have been the journalist's mistake ...

"Labor and Employment Secretary Patricia A. Sto. Tomas confirmed the remittance of the WCPUN donation by its investment arm PIPS, Inc., and the Isabellamina Foundation through Citibank-New York to the non-profit CGMA Trust Account at the Development Bank of the Philippines (DBP). "

Still, like I said, it doesn't change much. If PIPS said they'd be giving to charity, they HAD to give some to charity or people would grow suspicious.

Anyway, it's nice to know that when the thing implodes, at least some money went to worthy causes. It's not much, but it's better than nothing.

Incognitus,

You're too funny.  Here they are doing legitimate charitable work, and you still assume PIPS is a ponzi or illegal.  When will you realize that PIPS is the real deal?

Idiot.  :roll:

Well, they are doing charitable work so that they SEEM legal, what would you think?

If it is as easy as paying $100 000 to some charity and you'd suddenly turn your ponzi scheme into a legal entity in many minds, why not do it? They seem to have convinced you, didn't they?

It changes nothing, it just says $100k got out of the bag, nothing more.

If you rob a bank for $100mn and then turn around and give $100k to the Red Cross, will you then be legit?

:lol:  :lol:  :roll:  :roll:  :?:

Keep trying Incognitus, keep trying.

 :roll:

I don't need to, Visitante. Time is on my side. If you knew Finance, you'd know that when you have to pay 700% or more on the money you borrowed, time is not on your side.

Geez, open the friggin' eyes. Look at what is being proposed there and how outrageous it is. You seem to have no idea how amazing it is to look at a herd of people so able to believe in the impossible. So ready to dismiss hundreds of years of science as being "thinking in the box", while following a shepperd whose past includes several pyramids.

Thanks for your opinion, no matter how wrong you are.

 :?

Thing is, I am not wrong. It's close to impossible that I'd be wrong. Don't you understand that? It's not MY opinion. It's reality. Or do you think I'd be this stubborn if I could have any kind of doubt?

I mean, I trade the markets every day, rarely is anything black and white and we must be ready at all times to give up on our opinion. I'm very flexible because of that, but GEEEZ, in this case it's entirely obvious what we have here, there's no reason to change opinion at all. I only wish that this thing were a quoted company so that I could short it into the ground. (don't you go around talking about the IPO in 2 years time - that will never happen).

Wanna bet?

By the way, this is fun and entertaining, thanks for the laughs Incognitus.

After reading here and on PIPS tell me why 'you' are raging this war....what do you expect to get out of it, what is your end goal....did someone step on your toes, refuse to give you an account, kicked you out of the program ?  I really don't understant this drive you have here....there are so many programs on the internet, yet you have tunnel vision where this is concerned and it actually makes no sense to me.  I have heard from others that you and friends are reporters who have an axe to grind because you were stopped from having an interview with Bryan....sounds plasuable, could be...doesn't really matter to me....no matter what you are able to post on the forum....things will calm back down and people will make their money....if/when it goes away there will be another program to take its place.  Its the way of the world.  People aren't working 9-5 jobs anymore....they are phishing for money on the net....life goes on...one day at a time and only the second coming will stop that

Incognitus,.............info for your digestion. You have flaming energy to keep trying.
You can keep on barking and biting and hope you get what you aim, whereas pipsters happily having stream of income coming consistently.
Thank for promoting PIPS indirectly.



Hi PIPSters,

While doing a google search for "Isabellamina", I came across the following PIPS FAQ's. I recommend the PIPS main website be overhauled or at least add the following information....

(Note: My additional comment/links in () and green)

PIPS is not a ponzi scheme or a pyramid scam. Those types of operations depend on recruiting members to downlines and the only people who make money are at the top.

PIPS is a membership based program where each member makes money from the first day. While members can earn a flat fee commission for recruiting other people, the profit of a member is not dependent on the subscriptions or recruitment of other members. This opportunity is largely available for individuals that want to run web based businesses for tax purposes

Important concepts to keep in mind:
PIPS companies are 100% cash businesses.

PIPS companies are internally financed and carry no debt. In this way, every business gets to profitability faster. We have over $700,000,000 in assets and are debt free.

PIPS investments are very diversified, allowing greater flexibility and profitability.
None of the businesses has more than 25% of the company assets. This provides greater stability and allows money to be moved around with greater flexibility.

PIPS companies are legitimate businesses. They comply with laws and regulations of the jurisdictions in which they are incorporated and by the laws of the 76 countries world wide in which they operate – including the US. Before we begin operation in any country we apply for operating approval. For instance, we applied for SEC approval before beginning to pursue trading activity in the US. We do not begin operations with out written approval from the various regulating agencies.

PIPS is not one company, it is 11 and soon to be 12:

(For company registration information go here http://www.ssm.gov.my/findroc.htm Type in PIPS, Picpay, PIC Realy, Pic Capital and click Find)

PIPS, Inc – Incorporated in Panama
PIC Trust – Incorporated in New Zealand
PIPS Financial – Incorporated in Malaysia
PIC Capital – Incorporated in Malaysia
PIC Realty – Incorporated in Malaysia
PICPAY – Incorporated in Malaysia
PIPS Premiere – Incorporated in Australia
PIPS Fashion – Incorporated in Malaysia
PIPS Bistro – Incorporated in Malaysia
PIPS Foundation – Incorporated in Malaysia
New Mark Business System – Incorporated in Malaysia


PIPS, Inc
Is the holding company. It secures all approval documents from various jurisdictions and controls how funds are to be invested, but does not hold cash. We also plan to take the company public in two years. PIPS members will be offered preferred stock prior to the IPO. We believe the value of the preferred stock will go up 600 % through the IPO.


PIPS Trust
Has a Board of Directors that oversees the trust operations. They hold all the company cash and invest the funds at the direction of the holding company (PIPS Inc.). PIPS Trust earns profits from marketing and selling IBC (International Business Corporations) services and trust accounts through out the Pacific Rim. Currently seeking approval to market products in US and Europe, we anticipate approval some time after Jan 1, 2005. When that happens, PIPS members will be offered services. PIPS Trust also handles all investment trading and invests in all major markets including the NASDAC and S&P. We trade daily in every major market in everything from stocks and bonds, precious metals, currencies, futures and commodities. (Verify Pic Trust here http://www.companies.govt.nz which even has scanned copies of official documents)

PIPS Financial
Handles credit card processing. PIPS Financial is currently pursuing the purchase of a bank to bring credit card processing inside and to market retail banking throughout the Pacific Rim. Retail banking services will not be available in US in the immediate future. Having our own bank will help us control fraud more easily. During the last six months we have seen fraud attempts escalate to well over $1 million a month. We have stopped a great deal of it, but it still is the source of much of our credit card processing problems. In the future, the only way we will accept credit card payments is through prior credit card verification through PICPAY. PIPS Financial also sells mortgages in the Malaysian residential property market. PIPS Financial is also stock-piling gold in Australia. Why stockpile gold? Because China will be going on the gold standard in a few years and Mr. Bryan predicts that in about 5 years there will be a shift of all major currencies to gold. Obviously, this will have a big impact on the world economy but we will be ready for it.

PIC Capital
Is a venture capital company offering financing to small and medium size companies. We also offer management and consultant services. PIPS Capital does not take equity in exchange for loan repayment. We do work with the client to help them achieve success.
PIPS Capital also handles business and personal loans. The company is also providing venture capital for PIPS Premiers, Fashions and Bistro activities.

PIC Realty
Is a realty investment company operating in the residential foreclosure market, commercial real estate market, development market and real estate investment markets. We own shopping malls and office building in 14 countries plus retirement communities and time share properties in New Zealand and Malaysia. We also own commercial property. We look for commercial property where owners are making money but heavily leveraged, so that most profit goes towards pay off their loan. We make them a deal; offer them cash to pay off their loans and take over management. With the loans paid off, all the profit comes back to PIPS. We are making 2000 to 3000% profit from many of theses properties. We do development projects, but deal only with the financing not the project management. We are financing several projects in the South Pacific targeted at the Japanese retirement market. Japan is the only country in the world that subsidizes their retirees to leave the country. PIC Realty also operates in the residential foreclosure market. We buy upscale properties at 30 to 40% below market value that are about to be foreclosed and then do lease purchase agreements back to the owners for 30-40% below mortgage rates. We make a lot of money with this program plus we save many people from loosing their homes. We are waiting for operating licenses to begin this program in the US and Canada. After the first of the year we will begin to buy 50 properties a month. We will be opening up pips realty business in US and Canada after first of year. This will be in the foreclosure market. We will offer home financing 30-40% below current prices through a 20 year lease purchase agreement. PIPS will buy 50 -100 houses/ month. The lease agreements will have an easy out and upgrade component. You will get a 3% cash back pay out at the end of the lease. PIPS Realty is also buying islands in the south pacific to build retirement and time share communities. (Be sure to check www.picrealty.com in the future. I've seen the site briefly from someone's post not too long ago but admin must have taken it down since it's not officially launched yet)


PIPS Premiere
This is our film and entertainment business. Our first major project is an animated 3D DVD of bible stories for children which will debut at the Cann festival in France later this year. We spent $2 million dollars on the development of the project and we expect to make $500,000,000 from the merchandising and distribution activities over the next five years. The two people heading the project are former Disney executives. Many animators used on the project were from PIXAR and Disney. We have several children’s film projects under development and will also be producing records by Australian music artists. (For a look at the project, go to http://www.thekidsbible.com/ and this, http://content.nrb.org/convention-files/NRB2005/Exposition2.htm look halfway down the site)


PICPAY
This is our internet gateway. We designed the company to compete with Paypal! Soon PICPAY will offer merchant accounts so that members can buy merchandise using funds from PIPS. PICPAY fees that members pay for money processing are paid back to members through ROI.

PIPS Fashion
PIPS will soon be marketing a clothing line by top Malaysian designers. The line of men’s and women’s clothes will debut at the convention in Hawaii. The designs will also be shown in Paris and at all the major fashion shows in Europe. Members will have opportunities to franchise clothing stores.

PIPS Bistro
The Bistros will offer an internet café and will feature informal and fine dining plus catering for business lunches and dinners. Our First Bistro will open in Malaysia this November with franchises being available for members after the first of the year. When members buy the franchise, the company will completely set it all up. We hire the contractors, help find locations and will even hire the staff and chefs. Members awarded franchises must have business experience. The Bistros will be a home for PIPSters, serving as a merchandising and information center for the PIPS clubs which are now forming all over the world. (For a picture, look here http://www.dokdang.com/imgpips/dscn0374.jpg Also, keep your eye out for www.pipsbistro.com )

PIPS Foundation
This is a subsidiary of PIC Trust and will fund humanitarian projects world wide. The first grant was made to the Isabellamina Foundation (a member of the World Council of Peoples for the United Nations) which will build safe housing for the street kids of the Philippines. We will be donating $250,000 a month to build Ronald MacDonald-like houses world wide. Eventually, the Foundation will be getting PIPSters on committees and we will be able to make proposals for our own charities. (For the Philippines Govt. press release look here http://www.dole.gov.ph/news/pressreleases2004/november04/352.htm )

New Mark Businesses
This was established in 1997 and is the operations powerhouse of the group. It house the staff support, check processing and basic management. We have six offices in Malaysia and next year we will spread out worldwide

Courtesy of... http://www.moneymakingdollars.com/pips-faqs.html

Bryan stated at the NYC meeting that the daily percent needed to pay all members was .075%.....04444% was pretty close estimate tho.  So assuming that .075% is correct then...

to find out the what 1$ compounded at .075% daily for 1 year (about 252 trading days: 262 weekdays - 10 holidays)  and we have the forumla

FV = P ( 1+ I ) ^ n

therefore (1 + .00075) ^ 252 is about 20.8% per year.

Visitante, no we are not reporters and no that story ain'r right. What I get out of it? Read the article once again, it's close to the top. But I don't get anything personally, that's why I am not willing to take on any extraordinary costs regarding this.

Regarding the one with the official text on the companies. You read what the companies WILL be doing, and compare that to what they theoretically ARE PAYING now. Then you'll see that they can't be paying right now, so the whole scheme is a fraud. Besides, why would such profitable companies finance themselves at 700% per year instead of 8%? Why do you think Bryan deleted this single question from the message boards? Cause there is NO rational answer to that - except the Ponzi theory.

As for the one with the formula, why do you keep believing that thing about it only being 20% per year or so? If you were getting 20% out of it would you be putting in your money? Jesus. If you get 700% they PAY 700%, ok? There's no going around that.

Incognitus,

Can you read?  From my understanding, the excerpt below is not "WILL be doing", it's WHAT THEY ARE DOING RIGHT NOW AND FOR THE PAST COUPLE YEARS!

We own shopping malls and office building in 14 countries plus retirement communities and time share properties in New Zealand and Malaysia. We also own commercial property. We look for commercial property where owners are making money but heavily leveraged, so that most profit goes towards pay off their loan. We make them a deal; offer them cash to pay off their loans and take over management. With the loans paid off, all the profit comes back to PIPS. We are making 2000 to 3000% profit from many of theses properties. We do development projects, but deal only with the financing not the project management

Funny that the companies doing the same stuff they do can't have the returns they have, but hey, it's just me, I'm kinda skeptical.

Also, you should be skeptical too. Why would deeply leveraged "but making profit" businesses accept deals where the counter-party would realize 2000-3000% profits?

And how do you explain the fact that Bryan seems to have an inclination to start pyramids, more than to do any kind of business? You accept the facts out of his mouth as truth? Cause these outrageous claims have very little likelihood of being true ...

It all comes back to the same question. If they are involved in such profitable businesses, why don't they finance themselves at 8% instead of 700%? Don't you see it does NOT make sense?

Incognitus,

First thanks for trying to highlight the facts about PIPS. Whether it is true or not that they are indeed a SCAM/PONZI or that they will implode soon, is left to be seen but it is always great to have a person like you to help 'remind and open our eyes' lest everyone is driven with greed and jumped in...and loses.

Incognitus, please keep up your good work to bring new info, if any, to the forum so that those who want to know can know. I feel you are doing a great job thus far, so that new comers to PIPS, can have the pros and cons of PIPS as well as any background info relating to the risks they may be in. New 'investors' / 'lenders' or whatever one might want to call them, can decide and make their decision whether to join PIPS or not. They cannot then say they are not informed. Incognitus, please do not give up on you quest to look for new evidence against PIPS as a ponzi. If they are indeed a ponzi, expose them! They will always be the PIPS advocates but they are only saying good things about PIPS for the obvious reasons of protecting their 'investments'.

Keep up the good work. I am a Malaysian and I will check out if there are any truth in the companies that PIPS is promising to open here in Malaysia - like the PIPS Bristo (to be opened in Nov? I see a picture of someone standing outside some renovating outlet but they do not state where) and the PIPS Fashion. I will post here my findings soon.

Please excuse if this posting does not come up correctly as I don't understand Spanish and is only trying to figure how to sent this message.

Malaysian

"visante", obviously the pips bistro is real. But for sure one bistro (even when it opens) is very very small in the scheme of things.

If you want to do something that might be very useful, drop by at the PI headquarters and ask for a copy of the auditor's report on the PIPS fund. Although they can come up with some paper by a small time firm, it would still be useful.

"Can you read? From my understanding, the excerpt below is not "WILL be doing", it's WHAT THEY ARE DOING RIGHT NOW AND FOR THE PAST COUPLE YEARS! "

Visitante wrote this above statement. Now, how would Visitante know that these businesses were operating for the past few years? What Visitante said is all 'Hearsay' - from Bryan or PIPS. I can also tell you to invest in my scheme and I am having 200 companies worldwide that will be able to support a 2% daily interest to investors. Are you going to believe me? I have been following what Incognitus has said and I think there is a lot of merit in his argument. The rest of you PIPsters are just grabbing at straws! - unless you have new concrete evidence of the 11 or so companies that are operating and churning a fantastic profit that will sustain a long term 2% daily payout. Better yet as Incognitus has said, PIPS should get a reputable internationally known auditor to audit and report their audit and have themselves registered with SEC. Now why did PIPS not able to or want to do this and put an end to all these speculations that is affecting their business?

Hmmm, where is this Bryan guy? Why isn't he saying anything to the CC issue? The migration of the server also took a long time.....

"If you want to do something that might be very useful, drop by at the PI headquarters and ask for a copy of the auditor's report on the PIPS fund. Although they can come up with some paper by a small time firm, it would still be useful."

I will certainly try to do that but it will have to be some time later. You see, I live in East Malaysia and that some distant away from where their HQ is in West Malaysia. I will be going there to visit my brother sometime in January next year with my husband. I will certainly want to make a trip there as I am also interested in joining PIPS but I want to ensure that it is safe and is not a PONZI. Once I have the outcome either with or without the report, I will post it here.

I wonder why PIPS does not make it public or at least to its member the audited results. I know they are a private limited company but with so much speculation and rumours that they may be a PONZI, surely, they would be interested to put the matter at rest once and for all by posting up their audited report even if it is for members' eyes only.

Keep it coming Incognitus!

Yes Malaysia,

Please do report anything Documented that you see ESPECIALLY the AUDIT when you vist the west of the country in January! I would also ask you to post any findings on the Pips forum in the Pips Programs thread; you do not have to be a member to post.

I have tried again and again to ask if any member has seen documentation and in the end I gave up because all I was getting was sermons from the members about not having to show any proof because it is a private company, which to me is rubbish. I felt that the questions from myself and other started to frighten them and they got rather aggressive; while the ones that had already made good money were not bothered as they could always wait until the next scheme by bryan came around.

It IS very cultish, and scary to see Bryan elavated to God like status by quite a few! I have not joined and wont until I see any Documentation, but I doubt that I ever will!

Incognitus I at first thought you were just there to stir up trouble but have since re-evaluated and am pretty sure 90% that you are absolutely correct All of it is too outlandish and after all, they would not still have problems if they had all of this money!

I heard somone mention that they still use a free server, is this correct!

Keep it up incognitus, and be sure there are others on that forum still plugging away for answers, although you probably already know that.

Bryan has still to appear.....

No, supposedly they are using their own servers now.

What they use that really is "free" is the forum software, PHPBB, which is the same being used here at thinkfn.com, it's open source and a very very nice piece of software.

What amazes me in Pipsterland is how people are so willing to accept impossible claims, and how they keep clamouring for solid "proof" that the impossible claims really are impossible.

English prototype of thinkfn now available at http://www.thinkfn.com/index_eng.php

Heh,heh............i think you 're kinda ignorant malaysian's. Since when you get to know PI /PIPS existed? To /Fro. economy flight from East to West cost around Rm 200.00 plus approx. Rm50.00 taxi fares from KLIA to Nilai. Is worth spending a trip to PureInvestor offices. The best time to visit is coming 18 Nov 2004 for the PIPS Bistro Grand Opening event. You 'll have a good chance to meet up with the CEO (Bryan and wife Sharon) and all PI Staff and quite a number of International Pioneer Pipsters there on this day. You 'll be amazed then, instead of your doubting about PIPS now. Welcome to the PIPSLand.

Visitante, diligent investors are more interested in numbers and documents than on meeting a lot of obviously happy people. They have reasons to be happy, but they'll also be seriously biased.

Nothing like a nice verifiable audit done by people that have a lot to lose if they lie (which pretty much excludes small Malaysian shops no one ever heard of).

Thank You for your objective, organized discussion about the PIPS investment.  The voracity with which PIPS people defend their own investment is scary!  

The volte-face will occur when the Ponzi Scheme collapses.  And yes, I think it IS a Ponzi Scheme.

Ok, just for you...



With no further comments.

And by the way, just for you guys to stick it right where it fits you good.

How many times does one have to say that many ponzi schemes have real companies behind them, and invest in real companies, and Ponzi himself was supposed to base his returns on foreign stamp arbitrage?

I also posted an article here about the giant ponzi in Albania that showed the same thing. And it has been said in the unofficial FAQ too.

I wonder why you people keep pasting that long text. I mean, the companies are one of the surest reason this is a ponzi: if the companies are profitable, they can finance themselves at 8%, they wouldn't need to pay 700% for the PIPS funds, see?

The PIPsters either copy that long boring text that proves nothing or they just insult anyone who doesn't agree with them.  I suppose a financial discussion is beyond most of them.

Indeed.

Hey, Lucky, the english site is online now ... you can choose it by pressing the little english flag up there close to the top right corner. A few english articles already (beyond the PIPS stuff).

However, the pure english forum (buttons, links, etc) will only be online at the end of the week.

It's incredible how low the low life scumbags at PIPS forum will go. And there's still anyone that thinks their program is not a criminal's nest?

Incognitus,

I believe you're getting in a hackers kind of trouble. Now, who's the criminal here?

Well, I think that you all inconditional defenders of Incognitus should have a look at this:

http://forum.pipsinc.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=317062#317062

Hope they get you soon Incognitus.

You  know, I've only been in business 8 years; there is so much I don't know I could spend the rest of my life trying to learn.  But if a VC Company does not take equity in exchange for loan repayment, what leverage do they have?

Why would I loan money on speculation alone, without collateral?

And, if I was trying to raise capital (which, by the way, I am) and I was offering to exchange your investment for units, which you could call in as "due" in 53 days at 2% per day - WHY wouldn't I just go to the bank for financing?

I really don't understand.  It doesn't make sense to me.[/quote]

Well, to be honest, i don't know when PIPS existed except a friend of mine told me about it in passing. So, I searched the net and chance upon this site. I want to join PIPS but then I also do not want to be made a sucker at the same time. Also don't want to miss this opportunity to make money if it is legit. Hence, this search for info.

My brother is in Seremban, near KL, so Nilai shouldn't be far and if it is as good as everyone claims, it's worth a trip there.

You seem to know Malaysia even better than me, so I guess you must be a West Malaysian :-). Could you please help and advise where this PIPS Bristro is? Where are they having their opening ceremony? I can possibly ask my brother to attend, it it is open to the public.

Thanks!

[/quote]


My guess, and it's only a guess, is this:  There are no guarantees in the 2% program of PIPS, as everyone knows.  IF the program were to fail, Pureinvestor has no obligation to pay anyone back.  However, borrowing money from a bank would require payback, would it not?  If the program were to fail, where would they be then?  In debt, bankrupt, etc.  As it stands now, Bryan states that PIPS currently has NO debt to speak of.

Incognitus, I have to ask you:  If someone, say from this forum, were to go to the offices of PIPS and did in fact see an audit report, how would that convince you or anyone else?  If that person simply reported back and said "Yes, I've seen the audit report" or whatever other paperwork, would you believe it?  Isn't that just heresay?  If they photocopied it and posted a picture, would you believe it?  Ever here of Photoshop?...  it would be really easy to fake it.
In the end, it really is up to each person to decide.  If this troubles you so much, Incognitus, and you are so altruistic about this whole thing, why don't you take the time and money (you are a successful investor, are you not?) to go check the offices and the program out once and for all?

Also, there's really no reason for you to be sceptical FOR everyone else that you wish to SAVE from this "scam".  IMO, it's really no one else's damn business what I do with my money.  If I want to go waste it all in a casino, who are you or anyone else to say I shouldn't?  I know the odds and the risk.  I know the machines and games in the casino are set up for me to lose.  If I'm dumb enough to go gamble knowing this, do I not deserve to lose my money?  If gamble WITHOUT knowing the risks, I deserve it even more.  Also, I know of no casinos (and I use casinos as an example, for lack of a better one off the top of my head) that have signs posted out front saying "Don't invest more than you can handle losing."

So many lies, distortions, misinformation in the "unofficial FAQ" created by Incognitus it make me want to puke.

I would need an auditor's report from a reputable firm, and I'd call them to check it the report was true. And the report would have to be on the PIPS fund, not any of the companies (the companies are real).

Of course I wouldn't waste my money or time going to Malaysia. LIke I've said countless times, there's no money in this for me to take those expenses. I am (up till now) a successful investor, but not so successful that I can go around wasting money.

As for the guy saying "so many lies", etc, etc. Well, just write the lies here and say why they are lies. Every point in that FAQ is true, and those defensing PIPS are just doing it cause they are taking - or expect to take - money from it and need new entrants for that to work.

A New Project regarding PIPS:

I will be starting a new project regarding PIPS. It will be simple. It will be a collection of the names and addresses of people defending and promoting PIPS, to be given to the authorities when the scam ends. The scam persists by the efforts of those people and they stand to profit directly from its persistance, so these people should be held criminally liable for it and for the losses that will inevitably fall upon the great majority of those going into PIPS.

For anyone that has any info on any given PIPS member that is defending/promoting PIPS, pm or e-mail it to me as I'll be compiling the list and will forward it to the authorities when relevant.

Regarding the "Paulo" post on the PIPS Forum: The post is a fake and it shows very bad taste, together with the comments made on it. The person in question is one of the owners of this site before its incorporation, but not the only owner. He just registered the URL.

The reaction of the senior PIPSters is the same one would expect out of thugs. Instead of trying to counter-argument the obvious problems with PIPS, they keep trying these low life scumbag tactics, together with death threaths and all. Shame on them.

It is because of this incredible "activity" by those senior members, that they need to be held liable for their actions. It is quite obvious now that they are well aware they are participating and furthering a fraudulent scheme, and their hideous actions suppressing dissent, protecting the scheme and promoting it should be penalized by the authorities.

Perhaps they made a calculated risk, like me?

You see, again you are wrong. You base your theories that people are stuped and you outsmart all of us, hence you are God and we are blind sheeps just waiting for the shepherd, allthough we don't know it...

You think to believe that we can't see the obvious - one day PIPS will stop to pay because it's too much money involved... Perhaps these are news to you, but we do... Even Bryan has stated what his belief of the longetivity of PIPS will be, hence nor even he believes this will last forever.
Whomever believes so needs your saving, that much is true.
As for the rest of us, we've all made calculations, as you and I did, Incognito, where we ended up with another three years minmum. Hence there's plenty of timeframe to get once initial capital back + profit...


I admit not having read all posts since our last maths we did together, but it seams to be all the same thing going over and over again...

i.e.
Statement: PIPS can't last forever = It's a scam!!!
Conclusion: All companies that didn't last forever were scams!!!
(using your logic  :wink: )

I'm going by the not guilty until proven otherwise. I believe the same thing apply to Portugal? Hence, please give us proof.

Until then, let us continue with our highrisk-investments. Let us do our own loss/gain-ratio-calculations. Let us do our own longetivity-calculation.
And leave us alone - you are NOT God. You don't know how long PIPS will last - no-one does!

/Mr. E

...and it's all your fault. Your friend will be so happy with you...  :lol:

/Mr. E

Don't forget to put me on your list
It's Nostrade and you already know my IP-adress.

Looking forward to meet you in court...  :wink:

/Mr. E

Mr. E, it would not be me you'd be meeting in Court. I will compile the list and forward it to the competent authorities once the scam is exposed. I will not sue anyone at all.

Regarding the other posts, there's a difference between a company failing and PIPS failing. PIPS will fail by design.

Also, I am not calling people that put money into PIPS "stupid", They aren't stupid, if they know it's a ponzi and they put the money in anyway (and you can bet a LOT of the PIPS members fall into this category), they are simply playing a game of odds ... if they are in early enough they can make a lot of money.

However, once you go from being a passive investor in such a scheme to an active one, promoting it, defending it, giving it credibility, you begin to be partly responsible for the scheme's duration and thus might be an accomplice to the whole thing. Recent cases have started taking this view (in the USA).

The PIPS members that bitch so much about me exposing their scheme do so because they don't want newbies to be scared away - they want more people to come in so they can make more money.

I do agree 100%.   I think a lot of members know in their heart that PIPS is a PONZI and they joined with hopes of getting in early.   I also agree that in the US you may be in a bad position if you are promoting pips.  

I have notice a lot of people are putting up web pages promoting PIPS and hiding their personal information from the who is database.  This will help hide your identity from the general public.   It will not protect you if the US government ever decides to investigate.   Although the US has no power of authority over a company located in another country, it does have the power to enforce US laws on US citizens.  

Just be aware of what you are doing and hold yourself accountable for all actions that you take.

Best of luck to everyone.
Lucky

PS  - Incog - thanks for the english version of your site.

I am glad to hear that because you are (and I am sure that most of the people here agree) the INCOMPETENT authority on this subject.

Nostrade, you wouldn't believe how laughable it is to see you write that while knowing there's a 0% chance I might be wrong.

It would be more funny, though, if the whole scheme was not preying upon those that can't even spare the $450 they will lose.

Incog,

It's even more lauhgable for you to assume that people are spending grocery money on an obviously stated non guaranteed investment. If people can not spare 450 dollars on something that is very high risk, then they have no business investing in the first place. You of all people (being the self proclaimed successful investor) should know that with no doubt.Who the hell in thier right mind would hinge financial freedom on a 450 dollar investment? You give people no credit where credit is due. Furthermore for you to make these asumptions says quite a bit about what kind of person you really are, a speculative skeptik.

Look, visitante, go read the PIPS board and tell me if there aren't multiple cases of people that NEED the money they are putting into that thing.

Not all are putting $450 either.

And it doesn't help them to see the risk when you can calculate your returns FORWARD with a simulator. Tell me any other risky investment where you can do that.

And it's all besides the point anyway. The whole thing is based on a illegal, unethical, immoral, fraud system.

And guess what, you KNOW that as well as I do. You just want to admit it.

You look , Incog, I read the forum daily, I am a member. The fact still remains whether those people NEED the money or not, it is thier own fault for relying on that money as income. There is a huge difference between EARNED INCOME and investment dividends or whatever you choose to call them. What in the hell on the PIPS site or in the PIPS forum says quit your job or screw social security, now you've got us? I have not seen it anywhere, if you have I would like you to point it out to me.

Who in the hell made you the savior of the world? You are carrying a torch that has nothing to do with you (or does it?) or anyone you are associated with. Why have you got such a vested interest in what people do with thier money? Obviously you are doing this for personal reasons unknown to anyone. So why don't you tell us what the reason is? Do you think that you are an altruistic humanitarian? Do you have dilusions of granger. Just what is it that makes you do this? What is your motivation?

So for the sake of everyone here I will do exactly what you have been doing, which is nothing other than speculatiing. I think someone in the PIPS organization has hurt your feelings by turning you down or not giving you an account or something of the nature. Obviously, I have no way to prove that, but since I said it here in this forum, it must be true. Although I have no facts to support my speculation, it does not matter, because I said it here. Since your speculation should be recieved as real in this forum, I have self proclaimed that everything I say from this moment forth shall be treated with the same reception. I am always right and there is nothing you can say otherwise to make anyone believe differently.

You need to pay attention to your own investments buddy. You should worry about what is entering and leaving your own pockets, not the rest of the world. I hate to break it to you, but you do not get to save the world today. If you act fast you may be able to save yourself though. But wait theres more....if you act immediately, as a gift to you, I will send you The Self Help Seminar absolutely free.

Obviously you have 2 things going for you:
1. Way too much time on your hands and..
2. A very unhealthy hatred for PIPS and/or thier oweners and operators.

Have a nice life
1

I don't have too much time, what I have is the computers at which I follow the markets during about 12 hours per day. That's why I am willing to do DD as long as it's internet based, and not willing to spend my time or money "going to Malaysia". If Bryan really wanted to show anyone any document in Malaysia, he'd make it available in the net.

As for what you said about people being responsible for what they do and the risk they take, MOST of the people being taken into that scheme do NOT have the necessary knowledge to know that it's a fraud. That's why they go in. Some, (like you, probably), do have the knowledge and do know it's a fraud, but that doesn't keep them from going into the scheme cause they know that they can fleece the newbies that will mostly re-invest their ROI until it blows up.

It's not about being the saviour of the world. It's about uncovering some wrongdoing. It's about stopping a robbery.

My hatred for PIPS owners and operators is the same I'd feel for any other white collar criminal. No more, no less.

Then I guess it is safe to speculate that anyone and everyone who works in the financial merket is a "white collar thief."

Also, if the people do not have the knowledge to know whether something is a fraud, once again they should not be getting into it. Ultimately, they are responsible for thier own actions.

And finally, if you want to be someone who stops robberies, you are in the wrong line of business. Why don't you go to the police academy and become a private dick?

You seem to be having an identity crisis.

Why don't you go pester Robin Stannard or someone like that?

I don't even know who "Robin Stannard" is. If I had known about Nova Lights or FLO soon enough, you can be sure I'd have pestered them too.

As it stands, PIPS is the largest one still standing.

"Paulo" is the site owner.

Then Paulo perpetuates your harrasment and he is therefore guilty by association. Possession in nine tenths of the law my friend.

Don't worry about that, the site is about to be incorporated in a company with several shareholders.

And anyway, if anything we should be commended to warn about this fraud BEFORE it blows up. Usually you only see these kinds of articles after they blow up.

And by the way, if Paulo is the site owner, why has he not banned you? He has been more than apologetic in the PIPS forum. He went on to say that he is sooooooo sorry and he is just jealous of PIPS. If "HE" feels that way, I am pretty sure you woould no longer be here. Seems to me that you are running your own scam buddy!!!!

That post in the PIPS forum has already been exposed here as a fake, a product of the criminal minds of some pips members, particularly the senior ones which stand to lose when the whole fraud colapses. It's because those members had no downside that we decided to collect as much data on them as possible, to forward to the relevant authorities when the scheme colapses.

You have the same lame answer for everything. IT'S ALL A HUGE CONSPIRACY!!!  Do you think that someone is going to spend so much time on a forum? Are you aware of the cost and number of staff to make this possible?  But then again, look at what you are doing here. Granted your operation is much smaller and doesn;t require much to sustain, but you are talking in the hundred thousands range of the PIPS forum. There are so many people who post in that forum it would be impossible to keep up with if you didn't have a considerable amount of recources and money. Use your head man.

It's a fraud, not a conspiracy. It's a scam, not a conspiracy.

The only ones that don't see it's a scam, are those not able to or unwilling to. Any reasonably educated man will tell you it's a fraud in a matter of minutes.

Since there are some reasonably educated men there, it's obvious that many of them are aware that it's a scam, but they are making money off it, good money, so they want it to last as much as possible.

As for the forum taking a lot of people to mantain, no it doesn't and PIPS doesn't either. You should be curious as to why Bryan doesn't post anymore. He's apparently the only one with ban powers and he's still banning ... so he's looking, but he doesn't post. Wonder why.

An reasonable educated man would also say that you have a personal agenda here, and I can guarantee you it is not to help the masses. And obviously everyone involved wants it to last as long as possible. Anyone in an HYIP would want it to last as long as possible.

If you did not have a close tie with the PIPS organization at one time, how is it that you have so much information on who has the power to do what? For instance how do you know that Bryan is the only one with the power to ban people or threads? Word of mouth? Are you a hacker? are you paying someone for information? No, because you are a fraud with a personal agenda.

I am a systems engineer and I have been for over twelve years. I also happen to be a security expert in the IT industry. It is not possible for you to have this information unless you know the organization or you have hacked you way into the site. It is painfully obvious you have been shunned and you are trying to get someone back for what they have done to you. You are nothing more than a disgruntled ex-employee/investor who doesn't know what else to do.

"He's APPARENTLY the ...". APPARENTLY. That should solve your doubts. "Apparently" because all my (3) bans took some time or happened when he was around. This means it's not a person that is always looking at it, but does look occasionaly, and since he did the first (for sure) ... (it could also be the other forum admin, support admin or something)

I have no axe to grind, I behaved exactly the same way against the tech fiasco, only then it was not obvious if it was a fraud or not, it was just obvious that people were paying stupid prices for stupid companies. Here, it's obvious that it's a fraud.

I do have something else to do. I trade the markets, and did quite well today, btw. As for being an ex-whatever, man, I'm in Portugal, the guy is Malaysia, I have nothing to do with the guy and I'd never have anything to do with an obviously fraudulent scheme anyway.

You being a systems engineer you should know some math. Perhaps you don't know anything about economics, but math alone and a little common sense should be enough for you to figure out it's a scam, too.

More to come later, I have some work to do now.

PIPS is not one company, it is 11 and soon to be 12
For company registration information go here http://www.ssm.gov.my/findroc.htm Type in PIPS, Picpay, PIC Realy, Pic Capital and click Find.

PIPS Trust
Verify Pic Trust here http://www.companies.govt.nz which even has scanned copies of official documents.

PIC Realty
Be sure to check www.picrealty.com in the future. I've seen the site briefly from someone's post not too long ago but admin must have taken it down since it's not officially launched yet.

PIPS Premiere
For a look at the project, go to http://www.thekidsbible.com/ and this, http://content.nrb.org/convention-files/NRB2005/Exposition2.htm look halfway down the site

PIPS Bistro
For a picture, look here http://www.dokdang.com/imgpips/dscn0374.jpg Also, keep your eye out for www.pipsbistro.com

PIPS Foundation
For the Philippines Govt. press release look here http://www.dole.gov.ph/news/pressreleases2004/november04/352.htm

This is an indication to me that there is some reality as well as longevity to PIPS. And you were wrong about the 100,000 dollar donation, it was actually 500,000 dollars of which 100k was used for the classroom project. You should get your facts straight TROLL!

Visitante, that has been debated already,  most of those companies are either starting their activity or growing. If you know something about finance, you'll know that companies that are starting their activity or growing consume money, they don't produce money.

Hence, the companies CANNOT be generating the incredible exponential returns that PIPS shows.

Two good examples are the Bistro (one, opens TOMORROW), and the kids bible (lousy art quality, ready NEXT year).

Perhaps you're not aware, but given PIPS claims, they would have to produce 7 MILLION USD per DAY, just to break even on PIPS loans.

And then again, didn't Bryan say the companies are debt free? Wow, that's funny, given that PIPS are loans and PIPS participants have no participation in the equity of those companies.

Finally, why would those 11 companies, if they are profitable, be financing themselves at 700% per year when they could get money at 8%?

Geez, people, open the friggin' eyes, it's completely obvious.

As a side note, I've already said it here: a lot of ponzi schemes have seemingly real businesses where they invest. It happened with Ponzi himself, with the MMM thing in Russia, and in several Ponzis in Albania.

Companies CANNOT save a scheme such as PIPS for another reason. A good return on equity for a company is around 20-30% per year. PIPS has a ROI of 700% per year and it compounds. No company can finance such an interest rate in the long haul.

Regarding the donation, good, some money is not going to wrongdoers.

But bear in mind that we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars. Giving out $0.5mn is not going to make anyone innocent.

Unless you have a problem with logic, you should understand that.

The "get your facts straight" comment was unnecessary, you didn't actually point ANY fact I hadn't gotten straight before.

And if you had researched a bit deeper you would also know that all of PIPS money is spread throughout the 11 companies, none of which hold more than 25%. If you know anything about finance it is possible for a start up business to make money when it is a susidiary of a parent company. Subsidiaries (which can be start up caompanies) make money for parent companies right from startup. If the money is already there and all expenses have been paid ahead of time then it has no loans to pay and it is in the black from the getgo. This is common practice everywhere in the world, especially for tax purposes. In some cases, it is also used in money laundering, but if used correctly it is beneficial and perfectly legal.

Obviously, you don't know what you're talking about and yet try to sound as if you do.

Even if a company has no loans (and it would be stupid to say those companies have no loans, cause PIPS are loans, and the PIPS members have no equity in those companies), companies that are starting up or growing from startups CONSUME money.

Now, even IF they are profitable, they still CONSUME money.

Do you even know the difference between net profit and free cash flow? If you do, please explain it to me.

Cut the crappy "if you had researched a bit deeper". Where did I say that the money wasn't in the companies, etc, etc? It gets annoying, the bloody FAQ I published already went over this and the companies, my friend.

Sure Net Profit is as follows: Gross sales minus taxes, interest, depreciation, and other expenses. also called net earnings or net income or bottom line. And just in case you were wondering I will educate you on the whole thing if you like.

Gross Sales is total invoice value of sales, before deducting for customer discounts, allowances, or returns.

Tax is a fee charged ("levied") by a government on a product, income, or activity. If tax is levied directly on personal or corporate income, then it is a direct tax. If tax is levied on the price of a good or service, then it is called an indirect tax. The purpose of taxation is to finance government expenditure. One of the most important uses of taxes is to finance public goods and services, such as street lighting and street cleaning. Since public goods and services do not allow a non-payer to be excluded, or allow exclusion by a consumer, there cannot be a market in the good or service, and so they need to be provided by the government or a quasi-government agency, which tend to finance themselves largely through taxes.

Depreciation is the allocation of the cost of an asset over a period of time for accounting and tax purposes. Or it can also be a decline in the value of a property due to general wear and tear or obsolescence; opposite of appreciation.

Free Cash Flow is Operating cash flow (net income plus amortization and depreciation) minus capital expenditures and dividends. Free cash flow is the amount of cash that a company has left over after it has paid all of its expenses, including investments. Negative free cash flow is not necessarily an indication of a bad company, however, since many young companies put a lot of their cash into investments, which diminishes their free cash flow. But if a company is spending so much cash, it should have a good reason for doing so and it should be earning a sufficiently high rate of return on its investments. While free cash flow doesn't receive as much media coverage as earnings do, it is considered by some experts to be a better indicator of a company's financial health.

Just to break it down a little cash flow is a measure of a company's financial health. Equals cash receipts minus cash payments over a given period of time; or equivalently, net profit plus amounts charged off for depreciation, depletion, and amortization.

Dividends are a taxable payment declared by a company's board of directors and given to its shareholders out of the company's current or retained earnings, usually quarterly. Dividends are usually given as cash (cash dividend), but they can also take the form of stock (stock dividend) or other property. Dividends provide an incentive to own stock in stable companies even if they are not experiencing much growth. Companies are not required to pay dividends. The companies that offer dividends are most often companies that have progressed beyond the growth phase, and no longer benefit sufficiently by reinvesting their profits, so they usually choose to pay them out to their shareholders. also called payout.

Amd investments are an item of value purchased for income or capital appreciation.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity about who you are talking to. Besides that information is readily available to anyone who is not too lazy to look for it such as yourself. As you stated you are seeking information about PIPS and that is why you started this forum. It seems to me you are here because you are too lazy to do your own research. That is why you so little about PIPS and you are completely wrong in all of your speculations. All of your mathematical wizardry aside and your rantings of impossibilities, you have no clue what you are talking about. Do not presume to know me or how smart I am because you will dig a hole you can not climb out of.

If you have something constructive to say about PIPS, by all means, go ahead and post it. But until that time you are doing nothing but slinging mud. You have no proof of anything you say in this forum. And by reading the entire thread, I can see that you are too lazy or monitarily challenged to prove it. That is why you will always be the way you are now,because you hide behind mathematical impossibilities and lack of money. You are afraid to take a chance because of those facts. Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps someone has figured out something new that no one has ever discovered before. Of course not, because you already know it all don't you? I can tell you right now that there are huindreds of facts that you have overlooked about PIPS. I have been researching PIPS for over a year already. So while I am laughing all the way to the bank and you are making your measley day trading income (or whatever it is you do) you can think about all of that. I have noticed that you like to delete posts as well because you do not wish for people to see you might not know as much as you think you do. That to me says it all

Tomorrow 18th Nov. is the Grand Opening Day of PIPS Bistro next to PureInvestor offices in Nilai.
Go Here: http://forum.pipsinc.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19939&highlight=bistro
Please do read out the forum. There are tonnes of facts and truths there.
NO advetisement and selling of poriducts, and NO recruitment of downline /members required. Yet this Incognitus=Whatif=Olli in the Pips Forum condemmed PIPS as a 'SCAM and Criminal Company's.'
An average intelligence knows where they are heading. I joinned PIPS SIMPLY because "PIPS DO NOT NEEDS RECRUITMENT" and i am NOT a saleperson's (but an Architectural /Landscape Design by Profession). Since starting  June 2004 till NOW, i have NOT recruited a single member and YET i received investment returned from PIPS.  NO reason to recruit member for just $10.00 commission ONLY and my earning now is close to $800 per trading day. Never before had i earned this amount of money in my 15 years working porfolio. My advise is, "DO NOT RECRUIT" to join PIPS program. I totally agreed with Incognitus, PONZI /PYRAMID Scheme cannot survived without Multi Level Members recruitment. But, the truth is, "PIPS STILL HERE" after 2 years operating their businesses in Malaysian and other regions in S.E.A.
The heavily price i paid, is a 3 months sleepless calculated RISK and now I am just one of the many happy Pipsters in the 2% fantastic program. The Program have designed to help manys who do NOT /HAVE little knowledge in financial freedom investment.

Ok, now that you know what free cash flow means, you'll also know that the 11 companies can't be generating much of it, cause they are growing and investing, and surely they are not responsible for the money PIPS is supposedly making.

I am tired of your insults, I'll edit them out from now on.

To the 2nd visitot, are YOU AWARE that the ORIGINAL PONZI didn't have any MLM structure as well?

You don't need recruitment, what you need is to attract newbies with a 2% per day promise, ok?

If the goal of pureinvesting was really investing they'd pay 10% a year, not 700%.

As for the bistro. It's ONE bistro. PIPS needs to be making 7 MILLION PER DAY. A bistro wouldn't be making 7 MILLION per year, if at all.

To the first visitor, the posts I delete are all filled with insults, threaths or are simply fakes just like that "Paulo" post.

You might not know the difference, you might be too blind to know the difference and think it's all fair, but it isn't.

As for PIPS, it's a fraud, a scam, and sooner or later it will be exposed as such.

That you can go on defending it either shows you know it's a fraud and want it to continue so you make more money off it, or shows your ignorance.

1) Cos' you have emphasized so much on PIPS that it needed continuous stream of exponential Newbies entry to be able to support the current payments to the existing pioneer pipsters. From what i learned so far, no matter how much capital injection from newbies would never be enough to support the current payouts by PIPS if not for Diversified Investment Returns as mentioned here repeatedly.

2) Kinda funny, i do find some of your responses here quite inconsistent. Since the beginning, you firmly said, PIPS needs exponential new entrants, but now, is the attraction of promising 2% daily return. Yeah, maybe i do not pay much attention of your too many, many responses.

3) Just CAN"T deny the fact that over six months of RISKED capital investment, after having the initial capital returned and NOW the daily Withdrawal is around $800 per trading day increasingly. I am not well versed in financial investment and not really concerned how the money is generated for as long as i am getting my daily withdrawal from legally registed corporation in Malaysia. All those (in the box) historical facts and figures means nothing. You can call PIPS a SCAM /PONZI or whatsover it is after the 3rd, maybe 4th anniversary year, the more lasting the better it is. Is ZERO!!!!!!!!! concerned me. I am an opportunist and wherever businesses generates good monies, I GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!

1) I said and I continue to say that it DOES need exponential new entrants. It just doesn't need them through an MLM system. You simply don't seem to understand the workings of a ponzi scheme;

2) I said and I continue to say that it DOES need exponential new entrants. It just doesn't need them through an MLM system. You simply don't seem to understand the workings of a ponzi scheme;

3) You can make money, and lots of other people can make money in a ponzi scheme. It doesn't detract from the fact that when it implodes EVEN MORE PEOPLE lose money, and they lose more than what was gained by the "winners". You simply don't seem to understand the workings of a ponzi scheme;

4) You care only for yourself making money, it seems. Ok, it's not like you're mugging old ladies for it, but it's not much different either. I guess common robbers care only that they're making money too.

My posts do not contain any more insults than yours do Incognitus. I don't know why you think you should be able to get away with calling someone a "thief," "criminal" and a "liar" and calling a business a "scam," "fraud" or ponzi when you CAN NOT prove it. THOSE ARE INSULTS. I am also tired of your insults, such as calling pipsters "stupid" or "too dumb" to know the difference between a scam or not, so do not lecture me about what is fair and what is not. You do not want anyone to be heard other than you. You are the moderator and that makes your fairness one sided. Any time someone post some truth in here you delete it or ban them from the forum. You banned me from this forum as a matter of fact. You are selfish and opinionated which you are entitled to be, but there are plenty of people here who do not wish to hear your crap anymore either. Have you ever considered that? Who has banned you? No one has banned you because everyone is entitled to an opinion, whether that opinion agrees with yours or not. So if you feel the need to delete my posts and ban me from this forum, go ahead, it tells me and everyone else how right I am and how wrong you are.

I proved those arguments over and over, the only thing missing is for the scheme to colapse, which it will.

You have proved nothing all of your arguments are based on assumption and what you refer to as "mathmatical impossibilities." You have no clue what you are talking about. Give me proof in writing from a credible government agency that PIPS is a ponzi and I will not say another word. Your assumtions and speculations are NOT proof.

So, I've stated what I would take as proof that it is NOT a fraud. The 2 things I stated are both easy to get for legit businesses (an audit by a reputable company and registering of the scheme with the SEC).

I challenge you to tell me WHAT, in your view, would PROVE that it's a fraud, before it imploded?

I am not the one who is faced with the burden of proof, you are. That is what you don't seem to understand in your infinite wisdom. If you are seeking the proof it is up to you to go to the SEC or whoever you wish. If you are so certain that it is a "fraud' "scam" or "ponzi." why do you not go to the authorities and have it challenged? What is keeping you from picking up the phone and calling these government agencies in Panama where this company is registered? By the way, that is yet another misconception you have, it is not registered in Malaysia. Why don't you go and do your own due diligence? I already have my proof, I do not need any more. Go get it yourself, I have already done it myself. I have made all of the calls and sone all of my own research. As I told you before, I have been researching it for over a year.  Have fun!

Even old loyal members are starting to accept that something is (already) very wrong with PIPS.
http://forum.pipsinc.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22845

I think we are in the beginning of the end...

And it will be a fine proof for those that cant understand why 11 companies that are not even operating commercially (all of them state what they will do: it seems not even one of them is already generating income!) are not able to generate 700% ROI per year.

And by the way: What do you think is the ROI of a bistro? Or of a computer based back office? Or of a (distant future) 3D presentations editor?
Don’t you understand those business are already common everywhere around us, and only generate (at best, if properly managed) conventional returns?

Perhaps the visitors would like to inform us exactly what things they looked at as part of their due dilligence. It must have been pretty thorough to take a year! Did you see any Audits, any investment info?

You never get to hear the details of somebodys search on pips, I would like to know?

I am not being difficult, I'm just interested, that's all!

Nice try, Steven Elkridge.

You PIPS people really ought to think things over a little more. Why on earth would we create ANOTHER website to talk about PIPS? And have you ever seen us talking about "William Buffet"?

This (misguided) PIPS devotee that says "nice try Steven" is talking about www.pips-scam.com.

There's a funny post running in the PIPS forum: http://forum.pipsinc.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23026

Basically, not even the PIPS members want to see PIPS audited. Why? Well, it's simple: most of the seniors know that PIPS is a scam, they don't want it to be scrutinized, they just want it to last as long as possible.

Audit? We don't need no stinkin' audit...lol.

:lol:

I dont think there will be time for an audit.

Things seem to be breaking apart fast:
http://forum.pipsinc.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22758&start=0

Yeah sure.... it's breaking apart because some impatient Americans is bitching about having to wait.

I mean these guys get just as sulky if their remote dies. :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Sure we have to wait some days for the WT to pass through, but it doesn't prove anything.

Got a wire through today actually. So falling apart? Give me a break.

Only thing that is falling apart is your arguments. PIPS is still paying.
And will probably pay for some time.

And the creditcard issue. PIPS doesn't have to accept creditcard. They can shut down the service permanently and it wouldn't be the end of PIPS. You can still pay with WT.

That might discourage alot of new members from joining, but PIPS don't need them. Ifact i doubt alot of new people are joining now. Too difficult.


So why are they still paying? 8)

Don't they NEED these members paying for the old ones???

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
You guys crack me up. You aren't feminists? That would explain the negative, hopeless arguments, envy, and general hatred coming from you.

Oh no I've been VERY upolitical correct with that statement. :twisted:

Shame on me. :mrgreen:

*C* (So you'll recognice me)

You're right, they are STILL paying. "Still" being the operative word here.

As for the CC problems, it didn't mean much cause they stopped paying while having the problems, and most surely they still have some reserves.

Fantastic post by "notiomoma" in http://www.talkgold.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20952

Well they STILL have CC problems and they STILL pay.

How long do you think they have "reserves" for?

If 50.000 members take out 800$ today they need 40 million$ to make it.

They need ca.88.888 NEW member to finance that. And that is a small amount.

Lots of people are taking out anything from 4000$ to 10000$ making the figure even bigger. How the hell can a increase in members of 20.000-30.000 pay that?

How can the existing members even have financed such a "reserve".

It doesn't add up.  :wink:  :lol:

I would love for you to speculate you way out of that problem. How the hell can PIPS get a big enough "reserve" to handle that from new members?

Let me guess your answer:"They will not."

Correct!!! There is no reserve.

Your argument that the new members finance everything are crumbling, have any new ideas?

I have one, maybe they make money from investment?:lol:

*C*

"This is NOT TRUE and anyone who says this is a LIAR. To the contrary, when legitimate bank debentures are sold to the public, they are ALWAYS registered with the Securities Commission of the state wherein they are sold, and in most cases are also registered with the U.S. Securities & Exchange Commission. IF YOU CANNOT CALL YOUR STATE SECURITIES COMMISSIONER AND CONFIRM THAT THE DEBENTURES HAVE BEEN REGISTERED, IT IS ALMOST CERTAIN THAT THEY ARE BEING MARKETED AND SOLD ILLEGALLY. "


Legitimate BANK debentures...   PIPS has Trust Account Debentures.  PIPS is not a bank or any other type of finiacial institution.  They are a private company which members loan their money to.

That argument falls flat, I'm sorry to say.

Keep trying...  I'll just sit here and get paid while you dream up more ways to call PIPS a scam, thank you very much.

Only a minority of the members are withdrawing, and there is still a heavy backlog.

As for you sitting there and receiving cash, it doesn't surprise me.

But now tell me, what if it turns out to be a fraud, how will you act? Will you just keep your hard robbed money? How exactly will you feel about that? Will you say it's yours and the others were fools?

Actually, I don't think I'll have to worry about that.  But, if the business folded, I would treat it like any other investment/opportunity/risk.  No fools or geniuses investing, just opportunists.  It would all depend on HOW it folded, now wouldn't it?  If you investment somehow in a company, and they went south, would you automatically cry "SCAM"?  You'd have to figure out WHY they went under, first.

When it folds, it will become obvious why it folded.

If it folds because it was a scam, how will you feel and what will you do?

(bear in mind that no other company in history has ever or will ever give you 2% per day without volatility)

But, the question is ... how will you feel and what will you do?

How I will feel? Couldn't care less. Nothing last forever.

Rome fell. The mighty US will also fall.

Robbed??? Everyone in PIPS know there are risk.

People who lose are unlucky. If I win I will not taunt them because they did the same thing I did.

If I earn money on the stockexchange somebody have lost the money I earn. There is no reason to pay them back. :lol:

I will continue to live my life one experience and many $ richer. 8)

I unlike you am no saint and know that for one person to rise another must fall.

We have a saying in Norway (the land of the vikings) that goes like this:

"One man's bread is anothers death."

Look at the western world, (US+Europe) the only way they can be mighty is to suppress the rest.

This is how things ARE.

To try to be quasi-moral and live in Portugal a part of Europe cracks me up. :lol:

If you want to not use anyone. Move to the african savanna and live of the land. :?

PIPS is a project to help people and should lie your heart near.

But as I said everything has an end. And at the end there are losers and winners.

Get real. You are trying to save rich people from losing some of their wealth. Buhu.

Yeah, sure some put all they own into this and that is kinda sad.
But, you can't save the world. Maybe some GOD feels like doing that sometime.

Some people chose to think, others chose not to.

Who are you to judge.

To finish of I will give you another Norwegian saying:

"Everybody are their own lucks blacksmith."

Help yourself instead, we will manage just fine.

*C*

No it is NOT the same. If it turns out a fraud, you will have participated and benefited directly from it, and by defending it you would have conned other people into believing it.

It is not the same as losing or making money in the markets, futures or anything like that.

It's about being involved in a scam and scamming others, just that.

But you've already answered: you couldn't care less.

Incognitus:

"But you've already answered: you couldn't care less."

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Where do you get the idea that I don't dare being politically uncorrect.

PIPS isn't a scam. Because scammers don't warn their victims about possible loss before investing. Even if it's impossible to do what PIPS are saying they are trying to do, that warning makes PIPS innocent.

They are honest up front. You have read the disclamer Incognitus?????????

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

If you haven't you would be one the biggest fools I have ever met.

But, that I think is too much to hope for.

You have probably dismissed it as insignificant. But, the info you get before you join is what is the most significant.

It is what makes you able to tell if you have been scammed in the first place.

To be scammed someone must make a promise to you and then break it.

That is not the case with PIPS. They promise to TRY.,

And as far as I can tell they are trying.

Even if Bryan went into a casino with our money, he has TRIED. :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Sorry Incognitus no scam here. :wink:

Opps forgot *C*. :wink:

I think it's quite useless to try to say anything more on this. Nowhere does he say he'll try using a ponzi,he?

Then we will say no more.

Goodbye. Nice talking to you. :wink:

Maybe we meet again post-pips and can have a good laugh of the whole deal. :lol:

*C*

Incognitus argument of ponzi falls flat on it's face.  I won't go into all the reasons, but here's one VERY significant one.....

A ponzi needs new members to payout old members in order to survive.  This means ALL money PIPS receives MUST be paid back to older investors for it to keep going.  What Incgnitus will NEVER be able to explain, is why PIPS donated $500,000 to WCPUN and in turn they donated $100,000 to a specific cause.  PROOF is at the following site...

http://www.dole.gov.ph/news/pressreleases2004/november04/352.htm

This is one piece of evidence that PROVES PIPS cannot possibly be a ponzi, based on how one operates.  People please be aware that Incognitus hides anonymously, does not report both sides, and distorts, distorts, distorts.  On the other hand, Bryan Marsden travels the world, offices are open, and ANYONE can view necessary documents when visiting.

Please take Incognitus with a grain of salt.  If this post gets deleted, I know why.

Thanks.

To all Pipsters out there, Incognitus can only thrive if you Pipsters engage him in these arguments. I have been following his arguments for a very long time and he is harping abou the same thing! So please, ALL PIPSTERS, do not contiinue to feed his survival! You guys should know the risks involved with any HYIP investments. The returns are very good but so are the risks. We should all go in with our eyes open and invest only the amount you can afford to lose.

If anyone has no confident in the Pips investments, please don't invest and please do not dissuade others who want to invest.

Incognitus, thanks for your concern to us on Pips but you have said enough for so long, now let us decide for ourselves. If you are not tire of repeating over and over again about your negative beliefs of Pips, I am tired of reading about it. So this will be my last posting on this site.

I have also visited Pips HQ in KL and have seen the investments they have made and their business plans. Basically, I am impressed but with any investments, there is always no guarantees. I am prepared to lose my investments if my judgement of the Pips company is wrong. I would also consider that I have lost it in a poker game. However, if I am right, the returns are plenty! I am willing to take the leap of faith albeit only losing, if I loses, what I can afford.

That's said, I will wish to say thank you to Incognitus, the 'Serpico' of Spain for his incessant negative harpings of Pips.

Fellow Pipsters, let's not fuel Incognitus appetite anymore and let's all stop writing to him from henceforth. We have better things to do. He will stop if he does not get any reaction from readers!