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Autor Tópico: O país da (hiper)inflação nascente  (Lida 49746 vezes)

Incognitus

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #60 em: 2013-01-22 17:02:28 »
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To be sure, there was a lot of spending on public works, but the government, worried about debt, always pulled back before a solid recovery could get established

Se o investimento que é feito não for reprodutivo, não existe razão para pensar que medidas que visam manter a procura para um sistema desequilibrado lancem um crescimento económico sustentado - excepto por sorte.
 
Isto pode não ser intuitivo - mas se pensarmos em sistemas simples rapidamente se compreende. Se tivermos uma sociedade com apenas 2 pessoas, uma produz batatas a outra compra-lhas a crédito. Esta "sociedade" pode manter-se durante algum tempo se formos dando dinheiro à segunda pessoa para comprar mais e mais batatas (e a primeira aceitar esse dinheiro), porém só se torna sustentável e só gera crescimento se a segunda pessoa criar uma actividade para trocar pelas batatas da primeira.
 
A austeridade que visa um reequilíbrio da sociedade, com todos os seus efeitos recessivos, provoca isso. O Keynesianismo não necessariamente. Depende. Depende daquilo em que o Estado faz o investimento e se esse investimento "pega" em termos de actividades produtivas para trocar pela produção das outras (para as quais agora há menos procura mas que possuem capacidade produtiva).
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

hermes

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #61 em: 2013-01-22 18:23:33 »
Citar
To be sure, there was a lot of spending on public works, but the government, worried about debt, always pulled back before a solid recovery could get established

 
Se o investimento que é feito não for reprodutivo, não existe razão para pensar que medidas que visam manter a procura para um sistema desequilibrado lancem um crescimento económico sustentado - excepto por sorte.
 
Isto pode não ser intuitivo - mas se pensarmos em sistemas simples rapidamente se compreende. Se tivermos uma sociedade com apenas 2 pessoas, uma produz batatas a outra compra-lhas a crédito. Esta "sociedade" pode manter-se durante algum tempo se formos dando dinheiro à segunda pessoa para comprar mais e mais batatas (e a primeira aceitar esse dinheiro), porém só se torna sustentável e só gera crescimento se a segunda pessoa criar uma actividade para trocar pelas batatas da primeira.
 
A austeridade que visa um reequilíbrio da sociedade, com todos os seus efeitos recessivos, provoca isso. O Keynesianismo não necessariamente. Depende. Depende daquilo em que o Estado faz o investimento e se esse investimento "pega" em termos de actividades produtivas para trocar pela produção das outras (para as quais agora há menos procura mas que possuem capacidade produtiva).


Talvez seja de sugerir uma pequena leitura do That Which Is Seen, and That Which Is Not Seen do Frederic Bastiat. Segue-se um excerpto:

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That Which Is Seen, and That Which Is Not Seen

http://mises.org/page/1434

[...]

V. Public Works

Nothing is more natural than that a nation, after having assured itself that an enterprise will benefit the community, should have it executed by means of a general assessment. But I lose patience, I confess, when I hear this economic blunder advanced in support of such a project—" Besides, it will be a means of creating labor for the workmen."

The State opens a road, builds a palace, straightens a street, cuts a canal, and so gives work to certain workmen—this is what is seen: but it deprives certain other workmen of work—and this is what is not seen.

The road is begun. A thousand workmen come every morning, leave every evening, and take their wages-this is certain. If the road had not been decreed, if the supplies had not been voted, these good people would have had neither work nor salary there; this also is certain.

But is this all? Does not the operation, as a whole, contain something else? At the moment when M. Dupin pronounces the emphatic words, "The Assembly has adopted," do the millions descend miraculously on a moonbeam into the coffers of MM. Fould and Bineau? In order that the evolution may be complete, as it is said, must not the State organize the receipts as well as the expenditure? must it not set its tax-gatherers and tax-payers to work, the former to gather and the latter to pay?

Study the question, now, in both its elements. While you state the destination given by the State to the millions voted, do not neglect to state also the destination which the tax-payer would have given, but cannot now give, to the same. Then you will understand that a public enterprise is a coin with two sides. Upon one is engraved a laborer at work, with this device, that which is seen; on the other is a laborer out of work, with the device, that which is not seen.

The sophism which this work is intended to refute is the more dangerous when applied to public works, inasmuch as it serves to justify the most wanton enterprises and extravagance. When a railroad or a bridge are of real utility, it is sufficient to mention this utility. But if it does not exist, what do they do? Recourse is had to this mystification: "We must find work for the workmen."

Accordingly, orders are given that the drains in the Champ-de-Mars be made and unmade. The great Napoleon, it is said, thought he was doing a very philanthropic work by causing ditches to be made and then filled up. He said, therefore, " What signifies the result? All we want is to see wealth spread among the laboring classes."

But let us go to the root of the matter. We are deceived by money. To demand the cooperation of all the citizens in a common work, in the form of money, is in reality to demand a concurrence in kind; for every one procures, by his own labor, the sum to which he is taxed. Now, if all the citizens were to be called together, and made to execute, in conjunction, a work useful to all, this would be easily understood; their reward would be found in the results of the work itself.

But after having called them together, if you force them to make roads which no one will pass through, palaces which no one will inhabit, and this under the pretext of finding them work, it would be absurd, and they would have a right to argue, "With this labor we have nothing to do; we prefer working on our own account."

A proceeding which consists in making the citizens cooperate in giving money but not labor, does not, in any way, alter the general results. The only thing is, that the loss would react upon all parties. By the former, those whom the State employs, escape their part of the loss, by adding it to that which their fellow-citizens have already suffered.

There is an article in our constitution which says: "Society favors and encourages the development of labor—by the establishment of public works, by the State, the departments, and the parishes, as a means of employing persons who are in want of work."

As a temporary measure, on any emergency, during a hard winter, this interference with the tax-payers may have its use. It acts in the same way as securities. It adds nothing either to labor or to wages, but it takes labor and wages from ordinary times to give them, at a loss it is true, to times of difficulty.

As a permanent, general, systematic measure, it is nothing else than a ruinous mystification, an impossibility, which shows a little excited labor which is seen, and hides a great deal of prevented labor which is not seen.

[...]
"Everyone knows where we have been. Let's see where we are going." – Another

Lark

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #62 em: 2013-01-22 19:25:47 »
ah, ok.
parlapié libertário.

nem me vou dar ao trabalho.
já cá faltava são mises e o beato bastiat.
poupa-nos a essa xaropada, hermes.

nos US até já os conservadores fogem de vcs como o diabo da cruz.
já ninguém suporta ouvir o xarope do ron paul para lá de provavelmente terem custado uma eleição ao GOP.

L
« Última modificação: 2013-01-22 19:26:07 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Incognitus

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #63 em: 2013-01-22 19:32:06 »
O texto é simples, a obra (visível) feita pelo Estado que seja financiada via impostos, elimina obra (invisível) que teria sido financiada na ausência desses impostos (sendo esses montantes gastos noutra coisa).
 
Obviamente existem instâncias em que isto não se aplica, como a monetarização ou tomada de dívida (neste caso no imediato não elimina obra, no futuro se a dívida for para pagar, eliminará). Mas é um raciocínio válido e que até pode ser extendido: a obra financiada pelo Estado não é necessariamente útil/desejado, ao passo que os gastos voluntários em algo destinam-se a financiar algo útil/desejado (pois se levam a esses gastos voluntários ...).
 
(não é preciso ser-se libertário para deduzir isto, e ser-se outra coisa qualquer não muda ou elimina esta lógica)
« Última modificação: 2013-01-22 19:39:37 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Lark

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #64 em: 2013-01-22 19:54:07 »
ah, ok.
parlapié libertário.

nem me vou dar ao trabalho.
já cá faltava são mises e o beato bastiat.
poupa-nos a essa xaropada, hermes.

nos US até já os conservadores fogem de vcs como o diabo da cruz.
já ninguém suporta ouvir o xarope do ron paul para lá de provavelmente terem custado uma eleição ao GOP.

L

eu fico banzado como é que há ainda alguém que compre esta banha da cobra.

se o estado investe é porque o sector privado está a poupar e não investe. o que tem acontecido no Japão e nos US.

qual seen e unseen! se o estado não investisse era unseen e unseen e vá de espiral deflacionária para baixo.

o keynesianismo é isso que é e o tu já o devias saber hermes. até colocaste, se não me engano, um gráfico do ciclo económico com os pontos em que o estado deve investir contraciclicamente à fase de poupança dos privados. e poupar contraciclicamente à fase de investimento dos privados.

é da fase 'poupança dos privados' que se fala. essa ausência de investimento (unseen em qualquer situação)  deve ser colmatada pelo investimento público.
quando o privado se chega à frente, investindo (seen portanto) o estado dev poupar (unseen suponho eu).

bolas, keynes é muito mais recente que bastiat.

vais desenfiar argumentos da idade da pedra para contrariar argumentos modernos?

volto a dizer: poupa o pessoal dessa xaropada quasi religiosa.

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Zel

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #65 em: 2013-01-22 20:06:04 »
se o keyes estivesse vivo limpava-te a boca com sabao   :D

Lark

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #66 em: 2013-01-22 20:29:37 »
se o keyes estivesse vivo limpava-te a boca com sabao   :D

??!!!

tb estás a ficar hermético?
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

kitano

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #67 em: 2013-01-22 21:38:38 »
se o keyes estivesse vivo limpava-te a boca com sabao   :D

??!!!

tb estás a ficar hermético?

 :D
"Como seria viver a vida que realmente quero?"

hermes

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #68 em: 2013-02-02 22:59:06 »
Números impressionantes os do Japão... Fonte: http://www.cobdencentre.org/2013/01/the-walking-dead/

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[...]

It would not, however, be too wise for the authorities to flout the wishes of their long-suffering citizens, especially not when they have such a deep, vested interest in seeing neither their money, nor the banks and government debt which provide its backstop undermined.

It would not, however, be too wise for the authorities to flout the wishes of their long-suffering citizens, especially not when they have such a deep, vested interest in seeing neither their money, nor the banks and government debt which provide its backstop undermined. At a massive 115% of GDP, M1 money plays a bigger role in the economy than it does in most other developed nations (c.f., the ~50% in the Eurozone, or the ~20% which prevails in the US). As such, it makes up 55% of household financial assets and over 70% of financial net worth, with another 25% of the total exposed directly or otherwise to government debt.

[...]
"Everyone knows where we have been. Let's see where we are going." – Another

hermes

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Re: Isn't that a good thing?!
« Responder #69 em: 2013-02-03 09:24:56 »
It would not, however, be too wise for the authorities to flout the wishes of their long-suffering citizens, especially not when they have such a deep, vested interest in seeing neither their money, nor the banks and government debt which provide its backstop undermined. At a massive 115% of GDP, M1 money plays a bigger role in the economy than it does in most other developed nations (c.f., the ~50% in the Eurozone, or the ~20% which prevails in the US). As such, it makes up 55% of household financial assets and over 70% of financial net worth, with another 25% of the total exposed directly or otherwise to government debt.


Creio que esses números significam que o dinheiro em circulação no Japão é percentualmente muito superior ao que sucede na UE ou nos EUA. Isso parece ser positivo em termos de dinamização da economia, pelo menos no curto prazo. Aliás, isso parece natural num ambiente não inflacionário, onde o incentivo para aforrar é menor... may be!

[...]

So, what do those numbers mean?! :)


Este tópico é sobre o Japão, pelo que só vou responder a coisas sobre o Japão [idem para outros tópicos que criei].

Voltando à vaca fria, estes números significam que os japoneses já se acumularam no fundo da pirâmide de Exter:



e que por isso já têm montes de dinheiro à mão de semear para encher os carrinhos de mão.

« Última modificação: 2013-02-03 09:39:10 por hermes »
"Everyone knows where we have been. Let's see where we are going." – Another

Incognitus

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Re: Not the whole picture!
« Responder #70 em: 2013-02-03 12:59:07 »
To demand the cooperation of all the citizens in a common work, in the form of money, is in reality to demand a concurrence in kind; for every one procures, by his own labor, the sum to which he is taxed. Now, if all the citizens were to be called together, and made to execute, in conjunction, a work useful to all, this would be easily understood; their reward would be found in the results of the work itself.

But after having called them together, if you force them to make roads which no one will pass through, palaces which no one will inhabit, and this under the pretext of finding them work, it would be absurd, and they would have a right to argue, "With this labor we have nothing to do; we prefer working on our own account."

A proceeding which consists in making the citizens cooperate in giving money but not labor, does not, in any way, alter the general results. The only thing is, that the loss would react upon all parties. By the former, those whom the State employs, escape their part of the loss, by adding it to that which their fellow-citizens have already suffered.

Muitíssimo interessante essa perspetiva já de inícios do séc. XIX! No ano passado, revi um curto relatório onde se defendia a "flat tax". Aliás, lembro-me de alguém referir, no fórum antigo, que estava a fazer um estudo acerca da simplificação fiscal que também ia nesse sentido. Mas não é isso que pretendo comentar, mas sim aquilo que Bastiat diz acerca da natureza do trabalho que resulta em bens socialmente úteis e não apenas no fazer coisas de menor utilidade só para que mais gente esteja empregada.

Em 1º lugar, isto aplica-se tanto ao setor público como ao privado, ou seja, é contraproducente usar recursos materiais e humanos para fabricar produtos ou proporcionar serviços que não correspondem a necessidades reais das pessoas. Dir-se-á que, nesse caso, não havendo procura também a oferta terá de cessar, mas essa é uma visão superficial do assunto. A procura de um bem inútil, ou mesmo prejudicial, pode ser induzida de forma mais ou menos subtil, e é esse o papel do marketing - bem como das corporações e dos lóbis. Ironicamente, o próprio mecanismo da concorrência favorece a multiplicação de bens de qualidade inferior, em todos os setores de atividade, consoante o poder aquisitivo do segmento de mercado a que se destinam. A excelência, que tira partido da tecnologia de ponta e do uso dos melhores materiais, fica quase sempre reservada para uma elite ou então é posta ao serviço da comunidade através de instituições públicas ou privadas.

No sistema monetário e económico vigente, dificilmente se poderá escapar deste paradigma que sacrifica a qualidade ao valor da iniciativa privada ou ao lucro empresarial e a diminuição do desemprego (aqui visto como um objetivo social desejável). Mas não tem necessariamente de ser sempre assim, embora uma mudança de paradigma talvez exija uma crise violenta e duradoura que obrigue a reflexão e inversão de marcha... ou não! Parte dessa mudança reside, sem margem para dúvidas, no espírito empreendedor das comunidades, que podem elas próprias criar atividades económicas significativas para os seus membros, incluindo os respetivos meios de pagamento fora da moeda legal tender. Isto foi ilegalizado outrora, mas já não o poderá ser agora... at least, that would be much tougher!

Bem, mas não vou repetir os argumentos que já venho esgrimindo em Off-Topic, nos últimos 3 meses. Há, sem dúvida, algum sentido aquilo que Bastiat afirma, mas o problema da redistribuição da riqueza via impostos está indissoluvelmente ligado à transferência líquida de valor dos mais pobres para os mais ricos, via o fluxo de juros. Gostava de saber o que diz a escola austríaca sobre isto, embora desconfie que nem refere essa realidade oculta, tal como a economia clássica igualmente a ignora. Deve notar-se ainda que uma percentagem muito substancial do valor dos bens e produtos se deve ao "juro escondido", através do financiamento e consequente endividamento das empresas. E, contudo, existem alternativas menos gravosas em termos sociais ao modelo da banca comercial, mesmo que ainda tímidas e nascentes... but they shall grow!

So the REAL question is: como podemos sair deste círculo vicioso e quem é que lucra com ele? Pois não há dificuldade em ver o lastro que o juro composto coloca na economia, mas isso nem parece incomodar a vastíssima maioria que se acomodou ao "status quo"... why not?!

Time to get out from the comfort zone... this reckless order sucks to the bone! :P

Os pobres são geralmente pouco endividados. O que transfere a riqueza monetária da sociedade para os ricos é essencialmente a venda de produtos e serviços no sentido contrário.
 
E claro, no modelo mais actual, também esquemas usando o Estado.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

Kin2010

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #71 em: 2013-02-05 00:21:55 »
Inc, estás-te a esquecer de esquemas corruptos não usando o Estado.

Um exemplo é a cáfila do BCP, quando $$ ela esfolou ao próprio banco, cujos accionistas são privados.

Aposto que 90% das fortunas em Portugal são desonestas, de uma forma ou de outra (envolvendo corrupção ou tráfico de influências).

Não tenho provas, mas poderia elaborar uma lista longuíssima de casos prováveis (não uma lista de nomes de pessoas, mas sim de empresas, e de tipos de negócios).

Lark

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #72 em: 2013-02-05 18:58:38 »
A tese (the BS...)

Robert J. Samuelson
Opinion Writer

Japan is caught in a stimulus trap

Japan’s new prime minister, Shinzo Abe, is trying to revive the country’s flagging economy, and we could all learn from the exercise. You may recall that, in the 1980s, Japan was widely anointed as the next economic superpower, displacing the United States. It’s been a long slide since. In the 1990s, the “bubble economy” of high stock and real estate prices burst. The stock market is roughly a quarter of its high. Land prices have tumbled to 1975 levels. Since 2000, economic growth has averaged less than 1 percent annually. Government debt has ballooned to 214 percent of the economy (gross national product), about double the level of most advanced countries. Some superpower.

To get the economy moving, Abe has proposed a “stimulus” package of 10.3 trillion yen ($114 billion), about 2.2 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), and pushed the Bank of Japan (BOJ) — Japan’s Federal Reserve — to ease credit. This is familiar stuff. For years, Japanese governments have adopted stimulus plans. Since 1995, budget deficits have averaged 6 percent of GDP; that’s why debt (all past deficits) has exploded. The BOJ has repeatedly eased credit. In 1999, it cut short-term rates to near zero. It has had two episodes of “quantitative easing” — pumping more money into the economy — one from 2001 to 2006, the other from 2009 to now.

None of this has restored Japan’s glory days. In the largest sense, Japan is searching for a new economic model. Until the mid-1980s, it relied on export-led growth. Toyota, Panasonic and other multinationals seemed invincible. Exports and investment in new factories provided the main engine of growth. Unfortunately for Japan, developments in the 1980s doomed this model. The yen appreciated on foreign exchange markets, making exports more expensive. And the emergence of other low-cost Asian producers — first South Korea and Taiwan and later Thailand, Malaysia and China — displaced Japan as an export platform.

So the growth engine slowed. What could replace it? Japan has wrestled with this question for two decades. “Japan’s [economic] dynamism was exaggerated,” says economist Adam Posen of the Peterson Institute. “In the 1980s, people focused on a few great companies and ignored how much of Japanese business was relatively backward.” Japan’s domestic-based businesses (retailing, distribution, food production and health care, among others) have not powered the economy the way exports did.

Stimulus policies have been the substitute. To combat deep recessions, they’re justified; President Obama’s 2009 stimulus was warranted. But stimulus is supposed to be temporary. It’s supposed to “jump-start the economy.” Expansion becomes self-sustaining. In Japan, this transition never really occurred. The longest period of growth (2002-07) depended heavily on a cheap yen that revived the export model. Richard Katz, editor of the Oriental Economist, calculates that about 60 percent of GDP growth in those years reflected exports and investment tied to exports. This ended with the 2008-09 financial crisis.

The lesson is that huge budget deficits and ultra-low interest rates — the basics of stimulus — have limits and can be self-defeating. To use a well-worn metaphor: Stimulus becomes a narcotic. People feel better for a while, but the effect wears off. The economy then needs a new fix. Too many fixes may spawn new problems (examples: excessive debt, asset “bubbles,” inflation). That’s already happened in Japan.

It’s caught in a trap. On the one hand, it needs stimulus to grow. On the other, the debt from past stimulus measures threatens future growth. About 95 percent of government debt is held by Japanese investors — banks, insurance companies and pensions — that have been patient, report economists Takeo Hoshi and Takatoshi Ito. If investors lose patience and balk at buying government debt, the economy could implode. But their patience presumes that annual deficits will someday shrink. The trouble is that the required tax increases or spending cuts could act as a drag on the economy. Already, the Diet has voted to raise the consumption tax in 2014 and 2015 from 5 percent to 10 percent.

Considering this, Japan isn’t an attractive place for private investment. A declining population reinforces the effect. Katz of the Oriental Economist suggests spurring growth by dismantling protections for sheltered domestic industries. Higher growth would emerge as “inefficient firms die [and are] replaced by better firms.” But Japan’s leaders have generally shunned this complex and contentious approach. Once the present stimulus fades, Katz writes, it’s likely “Japan will fall back to stagnation.”

The United States isn’t Japan. The American economy is more flexible and entrepreneurial. The natural gas and oil boom is a godsend. Housing is reviving. Still, similarities with Japan loom. Growth rates have been stubbornly low. Both countries rely on stimulus policies — cheap credit, big deficits — to cure problems that are fundamentally structural and psychological. The parallels are worrying.

WaPo
« Última modificação: 2013-02-05 19:06:56 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #73 em: 2013-02-05 18:59:57 »
A refutação

It’s Monday and Robert Samuelson Is Confused
Dean Baker
Monday, 04 February 2013 14:43

The cause for complaint this morning is Japan where the new Prime Minister, Shinzo Abe, has plans for an ambitious new stimulus program. This makes Samuelson unhappy since he is much more fond of the sort of austerity that has given Greece a 26 percent unemployment rate or now threatens the United Kingdom with a triple dip recession.

Samuelson tells us that Abe’s plan won’t work because it doesn’t address the structural problems in Japan’s economy, especially in its service sector. Samuelson notes that Japan has had several stimulus programs over the last two decades. He tells readers:

“The lesson is that huge budget deficits and ultra-low interest rates — the basics of stimulus — have limits and can be self-defeating. To use a well-worn metaphor: Stimulus becomes a narcotic. People feel better for a while, but the effect wears off. The economy then needs a new fix. Too many fixes may spawn new problems (examples: excessive debt, asset “bubbles,” inflation). That’s already happened in Japan.”

Yes, this is where we can see that Samuelson is badly confused. Japan did have asset bubbles, but that was back in the 1980s. At the that time the country was not pursuing any stimulus at all. In fact, it had balanced budgets and a very low debt to GDP ratio.

As far as inflation, here again someone has to introduce Samuelson to the data. Japan’s problem is the opposite of inflation. Its consumer price level in 2012 was about 3 percent lower than it had been in 2000, implying an average annual rate of deflation of 0.3 percent.

In fact one of the most intriguing ways that Abe hopes to boost the economy is to have the central bank deliberately target a higher rate of inflation, committing itself to buy as many assets as necessary to raise the inflation rate to 2.0 percent. It is difficult to understand how Samuelson could think Japan has a problem with inflation.

Whether Japan’s debt is “excessive” can be debated, but it certainly does not have an excessive interest burden. Its interest burden is currently around 1.0 percent of GDP. It would be even lower if the interest paid to the central bank, and refunded to Japan’s treasury, were subtracted.

This low burden is possible because the interest rate on Japan’s debt is extremely low, with short-term debt getting near zero interest and long-term interest rates hovering near 1.0 percent. Samuelson wrongly imagines that the government would face a disaster if interest rates rose. In fact, it would be able to buy up its long-term debt at huge discounts and quickly reduce its debt to GDP ratio.

(Bond prices move inversely to interest rates, so if interest rates on 10-year treasury bonds rose to 3 percent, Japan’s central bank could buy them back for around half of their current price. There would be no real reason to do this, but it would placate the sort of ignorant people who tend to dominate economic policy debates and get obsessed about debt to GDP ratios.)

It is undoubtedly true that Japan, like all countries, has serious structural problems. The real issue is whether these would be more easily addressed in an economy that is growing at a healthy pace or whether structural reform is somehow advanced by stagnation and high unemployment. The latter view has been tested extensively in the last five years throughout the euro zone, the U.K., and perhaps now in the United States. Thus far it has been shown wrong everywhere.       

Dean Baker
« Última modificação: 2013-02-05 19:09:02 por Lark »
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #74 em: 2013-02-05 19:05:14 »
further thoughts by DA MAN

The Japan Story

Dean Baker is annoyed at Robert Samuelson, not for the first time, and with reason. The idea of invoking Japan, of all places, to justify fears that stimulus leads to inflation or asset bubbles is just bizarre. And while there is much shaking of heads about Japanese debt, the ill-effects if any of that debt are by no means obvious.

But what remains true is that Japan has run budget deficits for many years while delivering what appears on the surface to be very disappointing economic performance. What’s the story there?


My answer would run in two parts.

First, you should never make comments on Japanese growth or lack thereof without taking demography into account. Japan has low fertility and low immigration; this has translated into a dramatically aging population and a declining working-age population. So what does Japan’s performance look like if you calculate real GDP per working-age adult? (In the picture below I define working-age as 15-64; this is one case in which you DO NOT WANT to look at FRED, which defines working age as 16+ and therefore takes no account of aging).

[gráfico 1]

I’ve used a log scale, so you can view vertical distances as percentage changes. If we look at growth from the early 1990s to the business cycle peak in 2007, we have growth of about 1.2% per year. That’s actually not bad; you can argue that demographically adjusted, the whole tale of Japanese stagnation is a myth.

What is true is that there were two long periods of depressed output relative to trend, one in the mid-1990s and another, much worse, between 1997 and 2007. And one other thing: Japanese monetary policy was still up against the zero lower bound in 2007, leaving it no room to counter the Great Recession, and hence leaving Japan open to a deep slump when exports plunged.

So how do we think about this problem? Here’s my take. Japan has pretty much spent the past 20 years in a liquidity trap; as I’ve been explaining for years, one way to understand such traps is that they happen when, even at a zero real interest rate, the amount that people would want to save at full employment exceeds the amount they would be willing to invest, also at full employment:

[gráfico 2]

Why is Japan in this situation? A debt overhang from the 1980s bubble surely started the process; but surely it’s reasonable to suggest that the demography also contributes, since a declining working-age population depresses the demand for investment.

What you need in this situation is a negative real interest rate — which means that you need some expected inflation, because nominal rates face the zero lower bound.

But Japanese policy has never sought to achieve this. Deficit spending has put part, but only part, of the excess desired private saving to work; this has mitigated the slump, but not produced a booming economy, except perhaps briefly circa 2007. And the Bank of Japan has always pulled back on monetary policy when the economy looks better, instead of doing what it should, which is to keep the pedal to the metal until the inflation rate is solidly into positive territory.

The point is that as an analytical matter, Japan’s experience is perfectly consistent with an IS-LM type story, with nothing in there to suggest that fiscal stimulus has somehow backfired; stimulus has done exactly what you’d expect given its limited size and the refusal to take the opportunity to break out of the liquidity trap.

What Abenomics seems to be is an attempt, finally, to do what should have been done long ago: combine temporary fiscal stimulus with a real effort to move inflation up.

Oh, and what about the US relevance? We are, for the time being, in the same situation diagrammed above. What I think you can argue is that because we don’t share Japan’s demographic challenge, our liquidity trap is probably temporary, the product of an episode of deleveraging. So in our case fiscal stimulus is much more likely to serve as a bridge to a revived era of normal macroeconomics. That said, I welcome efforts by the Fed to modestly raise inflation expectations, and would like to see more.

So, is Japan a cautionary tale? Yes, but not the tale everyone tells. Its performance isn’t that bad given the shortage of Japanese; and it’s a tale of fiscal and monetary policy that have been too cautious, not of stimulus that failed.

krugman
« Última modificação: 2013-02-05 19:06:01 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Visitante

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #75 em: 2013-02-06 03:36:49 »
O aumento da inflação, a partir de níveis baixos tal como existe no Japão, penso que até tem havido deflação, é fortemente favorável ao mercado accionista. Depois de mais de 20 anos de queda do NIKKEI 225 talvez seja agora o momento de recuperar.


Incognitus

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #76 em: 2013-02-11 17:39:14 »
No Japão as coisas estão a começar a ficar mais surreais, com o Ministro da Economia a dar targets para o Nikkei ...
 
Japan’s economic minister wants Nikkei to surge 17% to 13,000 by March~
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/02/10/business/japans-economic-minister-wants-nikkei-to-surge-17-to-13000-by-march/#.URkB31rjk87
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com

rnbc

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #77 em: 2013-02-11 17:45:12 »
No Japão as coisas estão a começar a ficar mais surreais, com o Ministro da Economia a dar targets para o Nikkei ...
 
Japan’s economic minister wants Nikkei to surge 17% to 13,000 by March~
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/02/10/business/japans-economic-minister-wants-nikkei-to-surge-17-to-13000-by-march/#.URkB31rjk87


Não percebi bem se isso é só um palpite ou se é "a bem ou a mal!" :D

É que se o governo meter lá guito para aquilo subir por decreto eu até comprava :P

kitano

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #78 em: 2013-02-11 17:51:12 »
Será de comprar com cobertura cambial.
"Como seria viver a vida que realmente quero?"

as

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Re:O país da (hiper)inflação nascente
« Responder #79 em: 2013-02-13 01:42:14 »
Hermes,

Queres comentar "Why Hyperinflation Is A Myth (And What It Means For Gold Prices)"

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1174331-why-hyperinflation-is-a-myth-and-what-it-means-for-gold-prices

Cpmts,

  As