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Autor Tópico: Krugman et al  (Lida 605860 vezes)

Incognitus

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #660 em: 2012-12-14 20:17:02 »
Lark, esse texto do Krugman está errado.
 
A economia pre-2008 estava inflaccionada artificialmente pela tomada de dívida dos particulares, e a actual, onde de estar deprimida, está inflacionada pela tomada de dívida pública. A realidade é ainda pior do que parece, pelo que se se tentar cortar o déficit, acontece o mesmo que em Portugal, Espanha, etc.

estás a referir-te aos USA?

Sim, a economia dos EUA também se encontrava inflaccionada e ainda encontra - pelo aumento da dívida pública, todos os anos. Tem partes deprimidas como a construção imobiliária, claro.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #661 em: 2012-12-14 20:46:57 »
Lark, esse texto do Krugman está errado.
 
A economia pre-2008 estava inflaccionada artificialmente pela tomada de dívida dos particulares, e a actual, onde de estar deprimida, está inflacionada pela tomada de dívida pública. A realidade é ainda pior do que parece, pelo que se se tentar cortar o déficit, acontece o mesmo que em Portugal, Espanha, etc.

estás a referir-te aos USA?


 
Sim, a economia dos EUA também se encontrava inflaccionada e ainda encontra - pelo aumento da dívida pública, todos os anos. Tem partes deprimidas como a construção imobiliária, claro.

e daí?
« Última modificação: 2012-12-14 22:42:26 por Lark »
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #662 em: 2012-12-14 22:42:06 »
Robots and Robber Barons

The American economy is still, by most measures, deeply depressed. But corporate profits are at a record high. How is that possible? It’s simple: profits have surged as a share of national income, while wages and other labor compensation are down. The pie isn’t growing the way it should — but capital is doing fine by grabbing an ever-larger slice, at labor’s expense.
 
Wait — are we really back to talking about capital versus labor? Isn’t that an old-fashioned, almost Marxist sort of discussion, out of date in our modern information economy? Well, that’s what many people thought; for the past generation discussions of inequality have focused overwhelmingly not on capital versus labor but on distributional issues between workers, either on the gap between more- and less-educated workers or on the soaring incomes of a handful of superstars in finance and other fields. But that may be yesterday’s story.

More specifically, while it’s true that the finance guys are still making out like bandits — in part because, as we now know, some of them actually are bandits — the wage gap between workers with a college education and those without, which grew a lot in the 1980s and early 1990s, hasn’t changed much since then. Indeed, recent college graduates had stagnant incomes even before the financial crisis struck. Increasingly, profits have been rising at the expense of workers in general, including workers with the skills that were supposed to lead to success in today’s economy.

Why is this happening? As best as I can tell, there are two plausible explanations, both of which could be true to some extent. One is that technology has taken a turn that places labor at a disadvantage; the other is that we’re looking at the effects of a sharp increase in monopoly power. Think of these two stories as emphasizing robots on one side, robber barons on the other.

About the robots: there’s no question that in some high-profile industries, technology is displacing workers of all, or almost all, kinds. For example, one of the reasons some high-technology manufacturing has lately been moving back to the United States is that these days the most valuable piece of a computer, the motherboard, is basically made by robots, so cheap Asian labor is no longer a reason to produce them abroad.

In a recent book, “Race Against the Machine,” M.I.T.’s Erik Brynjolfsson and Andrew McAfee argue that similar stories are playing out in many fields, including services like translation and legal research. What’s striking about their examples is that many of the jobs being displaced are high-skill and high-wage; the downside of technology isn’t limited to menial workers.

Still, can innovation and progress really hurt large numbers of workers, maybe even workers in general? I often encounter assertions that this can’t happen. But the truth is that it can, and serious economists have been aware of this possibility for almost two centuries. The early-19th-century economist David Ricardo is best known for the theory of comparative advantage, which makes the case for free trade; but the same 1817 book in which he presented that theory also included a chapter on how the new, capital-intensive technologies of the Industrial Revolution could actually make workers worse off, at least for a while — which modern scholarship suggests may indeed have happened for several decades.

What about robber barons? We don’t talk much about monopoly power these days; antitrust enforcement largely collapsed during the Reagan years and has never really recovered. Yet Barry Lynn and Phillip Longman of the New America Foundation argue, persuasively in my view, that increasing business concentration could be an important factor in stagnating demand for labor, as corporations use their growing monopoly power to raise prices without passing the gains on to their employees.

I don’t know how much of the devaluation of labor either technology or monopoly explains, in part because there has been so little discussion of what’s going on. I think it’s fair to say that the shift of income from labor to capital has not yet made it into our national discourse.

Yet that shift is happening — and it has major implications. For example, there is a big, lavishly financed push to reduce corporate tax rates; is this really what we want to be doing at a time when profits are surging at workers’ expense? Or what about the push to reduce or eliminate inheritance taxes; if we’re moving back to a world in which financial capital, not skill or education, determines income, do we really want to make it even easier to inherit wealth?

As I said, this is a discussion that has barely begun — but it’s time to get started, before the robots and the robber barons turn our society into something unrecognizable.

krugman
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #663 em: 2012-12-14 22:54:48 »
para quem tiver paciência anexei um paper que substancia o que o krugman está a colocar à discussão.
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #664 em: 2012-12-14 23:59:16 »
I was given a Nobel prize for a reason.

camisa

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #665 em: 2012-12-15 01:09:44 »
Lark, a desigualdade tem crescido porque a impressão megalómana de USD vai parar aos do costume: a meia dúzia de corporações encostadas ao governo americano; daí pinga sob a forma de inflação para o resto da economia

por isso são precisamente as receitas do krugman que acentuam a desigualdade :P

Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #666 em: 2012-12-15 02:40:06 »
Lark, a desigualdade tem crescido porque a impressão megalómana de USD vai parar aos do costume: a meia dúzia de corporações encostadas ao governo americano; daí pinga sob a forma de inflação para o resto da economia

por isso são precisamente as receitas do krugman que acentuam a desigualdade :P

qual inflação camisa? não há inflação nenhuma!


Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #667 em: 2012-12-15 02:59:52 »
Já disse que, além das explicações dos Robots e dos Robber Barons, há as do International Outsourcing e dos Illegal Immigrants. Já que o Dr Krugman está agora a intervir no forum, gostaria de lhe perguntar por que não considerou as últimas duas, que são bem naturais de imaginar.

Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #668 em: 2012-12-15 19:27:01 »
December 15, 2012, 9:08 am
Further Notes on ONE TRILLION DOLLARS

Yesterday I noted that the preoccupation with the size of the current deficit — which, as everyone reminds us, is ONE TRILLION DOLLARS — is completely misguided. Since then I’ve done some more arithmetic, which solidifies the point.

So, in fiscal 2012 (which ended September 30) we did in fact have a federal deficit of $1.1 trillion (pdf). The question is, however, whether this deficit represents, as everyone claims, a fundamental mismatch between what we want and what we’re willing to pay for — or whether it’s mainly just a reflection of the depressed state of the economy.

For starters, we need to be aware that we don’t need a balanced budget to have a stable fiscal situation; all we need is for debt to grow no faster than GDP. At the beginning of fiscal 2012, federal debt in the hands of the public was $10 trillion. Meanwhile, most estimates of long-run growth and inflation put them at a bit more than 2 and 2 respectively; so we can reasonably say that nominal GDP growth can be expected to be more than 4 percent per year. If debt grew at 4 percent, it would grow by $400 billion. So the deficit should be scaled down by that much.

That still leaves $700 billion. Where’s that coming from?

OK, revenues were $2.45 trillion, which was 15.7 percent of GDP, at $15.5 trillion. The CBO estimates, however, that potential GDP — what the economy would have produced at full employment — was $16.5 trillion over the same period. And if the economy had been at more or less full employment, we wouldn’t just have collected taxes on the additional income; historically, the tax share of GDP varies strongly with the business cycle. If the economy had been at potential and revenue had been a historically normal 18 percent of GDP, revenue would have been more than $500 billion more than it was; even if revenue had been only 17.5 percent, it would have been almost $450 billion more than it was.

Meanwhile, on the spending side, a large part of the rise in spending came from “income security” payments — in this case, basically unemployment insurance and food stamps — which surged due to high unemployment, but are already coming down. Here’s what happened:


You don’t want to attribute all of the $250 billion rise since 2007 to the state of the economy, but a large fraction surely is slump-related. Also, the slump had impacts elsewhere too — for example on Medicaid spending, probably on more people taking disability, and so on. So a conservative figure for slump effects on spending would be at least $150 billion.

Put these together: $400 billion that doesn’t increase the debt-GDP ratio; $450 billion or so in slump-related revenue loss; $150 billion or more in slump-related expenses; and guess what: the ONE TRILLION DOLLARS is basically just a depressed-economy story, having nothing to do with any fundamental mismatch between what we want and what we’re willing to pay.

And this makes a lot of sense! The budget wasn’t deep in the red in 2007, and there have been no fundamental increases in government responsibilities or cuts in taxes since then (Obamacare won’t kick in until 2014, and it’s paid for in any case).

Let me say once again that this doesn’t mean all is well in the longer term. Baby boomers are retiring and health costs are still rising, so the budget prospect for 2020 or 2025 is troubling. But the current deficit has nothing to do with those troubles — which means that anyone who invokes ONE TRILLION DOLLARS to make a point about the budget thereby demonstrates that he has no idea what he’s talking about.

krugman
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #669 em: 2012-12-15 19:31:35 »
Já disse que, além das explicações dos Robots e dos Robber Barons, há as do International Outsourcing e dos Illegal Immigrants. Já que o Dr Krugman está agora a intervir no forum, gostaria de lhe perguntar por que não considerou as últimas duas, que são bem naturais de imaginar.

tens aí o paper que eu deixei que te dá uma ideia daquilo em que ele se baseia.

o discurso dele é, às vezes, um bocado figurativo. robots = automatização de processos e progresso tecnológico que leva a menor necessidade de mão-de-obra.
o outsourceing não é um factor, precisamente pq a produção está a voltar aos EUA por causa da 'robotização'. se há uma necessidade muito pequena de mão de obra, para quê deslocalizar a produção?
a imigração é ainda menos um factor, já que estamos a falar de empregos altamente técnicos. quem está a ficar sem emprego não são os jardineiros. são os quadros médios.
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Incognitus

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #670 em: 2012-12-15 20:30:27 »
December 15, 2012, 9:08 am
Further Notes on ONE TRILLION DOLLARS

Yesterday I noted that the preoccupation with the size of the current deficit — which, as everyone reminds us, is ONE TRILLION DOLLARS — is completely misguided. Since then I’ve done some more arithmetic, which solidifies the point.

So, in fiscal 2012 (which ended September 30) we did in fact have a federal deficit of $1.1 trillion (pdf). The question is, however, whether this deficit represents, as everyone claims, a fundamental mismatch between what we want and what we’re willing to pay for — or whether it’s mainly just a reflection of the depressed state of the economy.

For starters, we need to be aware that we don’t need a balanced budget to have a stable fiscal situation; all we need is for debt to grow no faster than GDP. At the beginning of fiscal 2012, federal debt in the hands of the public was $10 trillion. Meanwhile, most estimates of long-run growth and inflation put them at a bit more than 2 and 2 respectively; so we can reasonably say that nominal GDP growth can be expected to be more than 4 percent per year. If debt grew at 4 percent, it would grow by $400 billion. So the deficit should be scaled down by that much.

That still leaves $700 billion. Where’s that coming from?

OK, revenues were $2.45 trillion, which was 15.7 percent of GDP, at $15.5 trillion. The CBO estimates, however, that potential GDP — what the economy would have produced at full employment — was $16.5 trillion over the same period. And if the economy had been at more or less full employment, we wouldn’t just have collected taxes on the additional income; historically, the tax share of GDP varies strongly with the business cycle. If the economy had been at potential and revenue had been a historically normal 18 percent of GDP, revenue would have been more than $500 billion more than it was; even if revenue had been only 17.5 percent, it would have been almost $450 billion more than it was.

Meanwhile, on the spending side, a large part of the rise in spending came from “income security” payments — in this case, basically unemployment insurance and food stamps — which surged due to high unemployment, but are already coming down. Here’s what happened:


You don’t want to attribute all of the $250 billion rise since 2007 to the state of the economy, but a large fraction surely is slump-related. Also, the slump had impacts elsewhere too — for example on Medicaid spending, probably on more people taking disability, and so on. So a conservative figure for slump effects on spending would be at least $150 billion.

Put these together: $400 billion that doesn’t increase the debt-GDP ratio; $450 billion or so in slump-related revenue loss; $150 billion or more in slump-related expenses; and guess what: the ONE TRILLION DOLLARS is basically just a depressed-economy story, having nothing to do with any fundamental mismatch between what we want and what we’re willing to pay.

And this makes a lot of sense! The budget wasn’t deep in the red in 2007, and there have been no fundamental increases in government responsibilities or cuts in taxes since then (Obamacare won’t kick in until 2014, and it’s paid for in any case).

Let me say once again that this doesn’t mean all is well in the longer term. Baby boomers are retiring and health costs are still rising, so the budget prospect for 2020 or 2025 is troubling. But the current deficit has nothing to do with those troubles — which means that anyone who invokes ONE TRILLION DOLLARS to make a point about the budget thereby demonstrates that he has no idea what he’s talking about.

krugman

 
O Krugman não parece entender que a economia que existia em 2007 não era real, estava fortemente inflaccionada pela tomada de dívida privada ao ritmo de >$2 triliões por ano. Embora o orçamento parecesse razoavelmente perto de equilibrado, não estava, porque uma parte grande das receitas eram baseadas na economia insustentável que então existia.
 
Também o cálculo da economia potencial vai estar influenciado por um número de anos insustentáveis (que serão tratados como "normais").
 
(tudo isto é um fenómeno similar ao que aconteceu em Portugal)
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #671 em: 2012-12-15 21:11:50 »
É.
O homem não entende mesmo.

doesn't get it, como se diz nos states não é?

o que mais se ouviu na campanha. obama doesn't get it, democrats don't get it etc etc

tens que lhe escrever a explicar-lhe isso.
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Incognitus

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #672 em: 2012-12-15 21:19:16 »
É.
O homem não entende mesmo.

doesn't get it, como se diz nos states não é?

o que mais se ouviu na campanha. obama doesn't get it, democrats don't get it etc etc

tens que lhe escrever a explicar-lhe isso.

Eu já expliquei o fenómeno. O Krugman não é o único a não o compreender (não se trata de compreender, e sim de não o considerar sequer). O Roubini, que até estava negativo para a economia à entrada para o problema, também não compreendia o fenómeno pelo menos inicialmente (a sua explicação para o negativismo passava ao lado do fenómeno).
 
Agora pela tua reacção, dir-se-ia que também não pareces considerar esta questão (de a economia se encontrar, em 2007, num patamar insustentável devido ao aumento rápido da dívida privada).
 
Acreditas nisto, ou a ideologia cega-te de tal forma que nem perante a evidência de que isto explicou antecipadamente o problema acreditas?
 
Não te lembras do meu artigo "[wiki]A bolha invisível[/wiki]"? Explicava precisamente o fenómeno.
« Última modificação: 2012-12-15 21:22:26 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #673 em: 2012-12-15 21:57:15 »
sim, a ideologia deixa-me cego....
é o que mais me importa, a ideologia
« Última modificação: 2012-12-15 21:57:36 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #674 em: 2012-12-15 22:13:17 »
a dívida privada atingiu um pico em 2007
a partir daí começou o deleveraging
para compensar o deleveraging começou o quantitative easing

com o pico de dívida privada, o output económico potencial ficou a um determinado nível - elevado.
com a falta de investimento e o desemprego, o nível desse output está muito mais baixo - o intervalo chama-se output gap
procura-se com os QEs, com os estímulos directos à economia e outra medidas pouco ou nada convencionais, repôr o nível de investimento privado e consequentemente o nível de emprego e basicamente, fechar o output gap.

se em 2013/2014 o o desemprego baixar até 5%, a inflação não passar muito para lá dos 2%, o investimento for retomado a níveis de 2007,  e a economia estiver a produzir muito perto do seu potencial, os objectivos terão sido conseguidos.

isto é como eu vejo a coisa.
como é que tu vês, sinceramente não percebo.

« Última modificação: 2012-12-15 22:15:12 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #675 em: 2012-12-15 22:26:28 »
Citar
For starters, we need to be aware that we don’t need a balanced budget to have a stable fiscal situation; all we need is for debt to grow no faster than GDP. At the beginning of fiscal 2012, federal debt in the hands of the public was $10 trillion. Meanwhile, most estimates of long-run growth and inflation put them at a bit more than 2 and 2 respectively; so we can reasonably say that nominal GDP growth can be expected to be more than 4 percent per year. If debt grew at 4 percent, it would grow by $400 billion. So the deficit should be scaled down by that much.

Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #676 em: 2012-12-15 22:33:08 »
Citar
O mercado ignora porque “a economia está bem”, mas não se dá conta de que os níveis de tomada de dívida – que como explicamos funcionam como rendimento e fazem-no de forma multiplicativa – são o que faz a economia estar bem. E o motor que permitia esses níveis de tomada de dívida está a gripar.

o que acho que tu não preveste foi que o estado/FED se substituiria a esse motor. keynesianismo, basicamente.
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #677 em: 2012-12-15 23:01:33 »
É.
O homem não entende mesmo.

doesn't get it, como se diz nos states não é?

o que mais se ouviu na campanha. obama doesn't get it, democrats don't get it etc etc

tens que lhe escrever a explicar-lhe isso.

explica tu ao inc porque esta ele errado em vez de amuares Lark

Incognitus

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #678 em: 2012-12-15 23:04:01 »
Citar
O mercado ignora porque “a economia está bem”, mas não se dá conta de que os níveis de tomada de dívida – que como explicamos funcionam como rendimento e fazem-no de forma multiplicativa – são o que faz a economia estar bem. E o motor que permitia esses níveis de tomada de dívida está a gripar.

o que acho que tu não preveste foi que o estado/FED se substituiria a esse motor. keynesianismo, basicamente.

A questão é que isso mostra que em 2007 a economia era insustentável, estava a um nível desequilibrado pelo que não serve de exemplo como usado pelo Krugman naquele artigo.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Incognitus

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #679 em: 2012-12-15 23:07:39 »
a dívida privada atingiu um pico em 2007
a partir daí começou o deleveraging
para compensar o deleveraging começou o quantitative easing

com o pico de dívida privada, o output económico potencial ficou a um determinado nível - elevado.
com a falta de investimento e o desemprego, o nível desse output está muito mais baixo - o intervalo chama-se output gap
procura-se com os QEs, com os estímulos directos à economia e outra medidas pouco ou nada convencionais, repôr o nível de investimento privado e consequentemente o nível de emprego e basicamente, fechar o output gap.

se em 2013/2014 o o desemprego baixar até 5%, a inflação não passar muito para lá dos 2%, o investimento for retomado a níveis de 2007,  e a economia estiver a produzir muito perto do seu potencial, os objectivos terão sido conseguidos.

isto é como eu vejo a coisa.
como é que tu vês, sinceramente não percebo.

É complexo, se isso for conseguido através de uma expansão da dívida pública ou via imprimir dinheiro, criará problemas diferentes. É uma questão de quem produz e quem consome. Se for via dívida em algum ponto esta também será insustentável. Se for via impressão, em algum ponto os produtores dão-se conta do "esquema" que é produzirem em troca de papel impresso infinitamente. Nesse ponto os produtores desistem de aceitar acumular esse papel produzido infinitamente e depois tem-se outro problema grave.
 
(em todo o caso é estranho defenderem-se opções que adiando os problemas presentes, levam a outcomes brutais potencialmente disruptores da sociedade, no futuro)
« Última modificação: 2012-12-15 23:11:50 por Incognitus »
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