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Autor Tópico: Krugman et al  (Lida 607779 vezes)

Zel

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #20 em: 2012-07-23 11:15:50 »
muito mais importante sao as chuvas acidas e os gases toxicos, esta moda do CO2 e' uma distracao nociva as causas do ambiente

nao ha forma de sabermos os efeitos do CO2, tudo o que se diz baseia-se em modelos de computador nao comprovados e numa trend de temperatura
normalissima em termos historicos e que ja existia antes dos niveis de CO2 terem comecado a subir

os proprios niveis historicos de temperatura dos ultimos 1000 anos sao bastante polemicos, nao ha forma de sabermos nada disto com precisao, ja vi graficos em que as temperaturas
de alguns seculos atras eram superiores as actuais

mas o que sabemos eh q a moda da camada de ozono veio e foi, a moda da idade do gelo nos anos 60 veio e foi e sabemos que aderir as modas eh fundamental
para os cientistas que precisam de grant money para avancarem na sua carreira

a ciencia esta cheia de modas e cheia de ciencia mal feita, ultimamente tenho-me dedicado a ler papers de dietas e trata-se de outro campo que eh uma desgraca, muito pior do que as pessoas imaginam, a pessoa comum tem uma fe infundada na ciencia e nos cientistas visto que a tecnologia lhes tem dado tanto coisa fantastica nas ultimas decadas, mas progresso tecnologico e a ma ciencia parecem conseguir coexistir sem grandes problemas.
« Última modificação: 2012-07-23 11:52:14 por Zel »

Zel

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #21 em: 2012-07-23 11:56:17 »
Lark, tenho algumas bandas desenhadas com esse personagem do teu avatar, escolheste ao acaso ?

Iznogoud ao acaso?
uma figura inesquecível produzida pelo talento de Goscinny , aqui com Tabary (asterix com uderzo, lucky luke com Morris).

'Eu quero ser Califa no lugar do Califa!'

foi a grande epoca de ouro da BD, eu por ex meti aqui o tio patinhas pois comecei a comprar a reedicao da coleccao completa do Carl Barks

Zel

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #22 em: 2012-07-23 20:42:18 »
mas isso do aumento do yields tem a ver acima de tudo com outros factores como biotech etc

o que interessa e' isto :

" droughts have, for the most part, become shorter, less frequent, less severe, and cover a smaller portion of the country over the last century. "

o krugman fala deste assunto claramente sem o perceber e com agenda ideologica, isto nao abona a favor da sua honestidade noutros assuntos

Kin2010

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #23 em: 2012-07-23 23:58:39 »
Leprechaun:

Essa de citar um grande aumento da produção de um cereal... Então e as melhorias técnicas do período 1940-2000? Não contaram?

Além disso é incrível a cegueira de alguns americanos em invocar só o que se passa no seu quadrilátero. As alterações noutras regiões são mais intensas.

Se acreditas nesses energúmenos, lê a Science e a Nature sobre o tema, e vês lá o quase consenso, como eu disse. E não me vou pôr a contrapor argumentos técnicos dados por cientistas de 5ª categoria, porque eu nessa área, não percebo nada. Mas sei que esses são de 5ª e os de 1ª estão do lado oposto.

Inc:

Essas subidas e descidas que vês no gráfico duraram milhares de anos cada (refiro-me à duração dos troços de subida). O que estamos a assistir agora é a uma subida cuja duração é de poucos anos e cuja amplitude poderá vir a ser semelhante a essas. Além disso, o CO2 está mesmo a aumentar, e o CO2 provoca mesmo efeito de estufa, portanto é logo à partida provável que as duas coisas estejam ligadas.

Incognitus

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #24 em: 2012-07-24 00:02:46 »
Kin, a variação agora é tipo 1ºC ao longo de 100 anos.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Kin2010

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #25 em: 2012-07-24 01:24:37 »
Kin, a variação agora é tipo 1ºC ao longo de 100 anos.

Está a acelerar, foi de cerca disso nos últimos 100 anos, mas nos próximos 100 pode ser 3-4º ou mais.

Zel

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #26 em: 2012-07-24 02:07:28 »
3-4 graus a 100 anos? ehhe, isso sao previsoes da treta para os jornais, tipo como os economistas a preverem a economia

eh impossivel prever algo assim
« Última modificação: 2012-07-24 02:08:22 por Zel »

Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #27 em: 2012-09-09 21:43:17 »
Government Employment
During today’s round table on ABC, Rand Paul seemed shocked at my claim that government employment is down under Obama. Of course, it is. But maybe he’s thinking of the fact that since govt employment rose under Bush, we’re still at higher absolute levels than we were a decade ago.

That is, however, a strange comparison: other things equal, you’d expect government employment to grow with population (remember, the typical government employee is a schoolteacher). And here’s what has happened to government employment per capita:


I know Republicans know, just know, that government has surged under Obama. But it ain’t so.
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Incognitus

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #28 em: 2012-09-09 21:53:41 »
Inclui governo local? Deve incluir. O governo local (ao nível Estadual e abaixo) nos EUA tem que cortar visto estar razoavelmente impedido de correr déficits.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Zel

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #29 em: 2012-09-09 22:35:26 »
pode ser mais um argumento falacioso do krugman, se inclui o governo local entao pode nao ter nada a ver com o obama



« Última modificação: 2012-09-09 22:37:33 por Zel »

Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #30 em: 2012-09-09 22:55:32 »
ainda não encontrei nenhum argumento falacioso do krugman.
ele suporta sempre as suas afirmações em número públicos e facilmente acessiveis.

estes números são federais. o pico que se vê em 2010 foi o census.
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #31 em: 2012-09-09 22:59:14 »
ainda não encontrei nenhum argumento falacioso do krugman.
ele suporta sempre as suas afirmações em número públicos e facilmente acessiveis.

estes números são federais. o pico que se vê em 2010 foi o census.

na realidade o que eu gosto mais no krugman é precisamente o contrário. ele é que desmascara, extensamente,  as falácias.
tal como esta; o rand paul quase que caía da tripeça ao ouvir o krugman dizer que o emprego federal tinha crescido com os  conservadores e tinha-se reduzido com o Obama.
falácia.... uma forma elegante de dizer mentira (a de que o emprego federal não parava de aumentar)...
« Última modificação: 2012-09-09 23:17:29 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Incognitus

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #32 em: 2012-09-09 23:17:00 »
Há uma coisa no texto que faz crer que inclui o governo local: "the typical government employee is a schoolteacher". Os professores tendem a ser contratados pelos governos locais, nos EUA.
 
Além de que se sabe que os governos locais estão a cortar, o que é consistente com o gráfico. E claro, o gráfico é gov worker/pop, a pop activa tende a ser 1/2 da pop, o que faz com que aquele rácio seja na casa dos 14-15%da pop activa, o que também parece consistente com Estado Federal + local.
« Última modificação: 2012-09-09 23:17:17 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #33 em: 2012-09-09 23:19:27 »
Cleaning Up the Economy

Bill Clinton’s speech at the Democratic National Convention was a remarkable combination of pretty serious wonkishness — has there ever been a convention speech with that much policy detail? — and memorable zingers. Perhaps the best of those zingers was his sarcastic summary of the Republican case for denying President Obama re-election: “We left him a total mess. He hasn’t cleaned it up fast enough. So fire him and put us back in.”
 
Great line. But is the mess really getting cleaned up?

The answer, I would argue, is yes. The next four years are likely to be much better than the last four years — unless misguided policies create another mess.

In saying this, I’m not making excuses for the past. Job growth has been much slower and unemployment much higher than it should have been, even given the mess Mr. Obama inherited. More on that later. But, first, let’s look at what has been accomplished.

On Inauguration Day 2009, the U.S. economy faced three main problems. First, and most pressing, there was a crisis in the financial system, with many of the crucial channels of credit frozen; we were, in effect, suffering the 21st-century version of the bank runs that brought on the Great Depression. Second, the economy was taking a major hit from the collapse of a gigantic housing bubble. Third, consumer spending was being held down by high levels of household debt, much of which had been run up during the Bush-era bubble.

The first of these problems was resolved quite quickly, thanks both to lots of emergency lending by the Federal Reserve and, yes, the much maligned bank bailouts. By late 2009, measures of financial stress were more or less back to normal.

This return to financial normalcy did not, however, produce a robust recovery. Fast recoveries are almost always led by a housing boom — and given the excess home construction that took place during the bubble, that just wasn’t going to happen. Meanwhile, households were trying (or being forced by creditors) to pay down debt, which meant depressed demand. So the economy’s free fall ended, but recovery remained sluggish.

Now, you may have noticed that in telling this story about a disappointing recovery I didn’t mention any of the things that Republicans talked about last week in Tampa, Fla. — the effects of high taxes and regulation, the lack of confidence supposedly created by Mr. Obama’s failure to lavish enough praise on “job creators” (what I call the “Ma, he’s looking at me funny!” theory of our economic problems). Why the omission? Because there’s not a shred of evidence for the G.O.P. theory of what ails our economy, while there’s a lot of hard evidence for the view that a lack of demand, largely because of excessive household debt, is the real problem.

And here’s the good news: The forces that have been holding the economy back seem likely to fade away in the years ahead. Housing starts have been at extremely low levels for years, so the overhang of excess construction from the bubble years is long past — and it looks as if a housing recovery has already begun. Household debt is still high by historical standards, but the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is way down from its peak, setting the stage for stronger consumer demand looking forward.

And what about business investment? It has actually been recovering rapidly since late 2009, and there’s every reason to expect it to keep rising as businesses see rising demand for their products.

So, as I said, the odds are that barring major mistakes, the next four years will be much better than the past four years.

Does this mean that U.S. economic policy has done a good job? Not at all.

Bill Clinton said of the problems Mr. Obama confronted on taking office, “No one could have fully repaired all the damage that he found in just four years.” If, by that, he meant the overhang of debt, that’s very much the case. But we should have had strong policies to mitigate the pain while households worked down their debt, as well as policies to help reduce the debt — above all, relief for underwater homeowners.

The policies we actually got were far from adequate. Debt relief, in particular, has been a bust — and you can argue that this was, in large part, because the Obama administration never took it seriously.

But, that said, Mr. Obama did push through policies — the auto bailout and the Recovery Act — that made the slump a lot less awful than it might have been. And despite Mitt Romney’s attempt to rewrite history on the bailout, the fact is that Republicans bitterly opposed both measures, as well as everything else the president has proposed.

So Bill Clinton basically had it right: For all the pain America has suffered on his watch, Mr. Obama can fairly claim to have helped the country get through a very bad patch, from which it is starting to emerge.
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #34 em: 2012-09-09 23:21:25 »
Há uma coisa no texto que faz crer que inclui o governo local: "the typical government employee is a schoolteacher". Os professores tendem a ser contratados pelos governos locais, nos EUA.
 
Além de que se sabe que os governos locais estão a cortar, o que é consistente com o gráfico. E claro, o gráfico é gov worker/pop, a pop activa tende a ser 1/2 da pop, o que faz com que aquele rácio seja na casa dos 14-15%da pop activa, o que também parece consistente com Estado Federal + local.

não. eu sublinhei o pico do census pq o census é puramente federal. se os números fossem federais+estados o pico do census não seria tão evidente.
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Incognitus

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #35 em: 2012-09-09 23:25:19 »
Porquê? O Census faria um pico em qualquer caso, e num rácio worker / pop, o pico teria mais ou menos o mesmo tamanho em qualquer caso ... pois o census responde sempre por uma mesma quantidade de worker/pop.
 
14/15% de trabalhadores / pop activa é altamente provavel que seja Federal+local, Federal sozinho não vai empregar 14-15% da população activa dos EUA.
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

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Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #36 em: 2012-09-09 23:34:30 »
Porquê? O Census faria um pico em qualquer caso, e num rácio worker / pop, o pico teria mais ou menos o mesmo tamanho em qualquer caso ... pois o census responde sempre por uma mesma quantidade de worker/pop.
 
14/15% de trabalhadores / pop activa é altamente provavel que seja Federal+local, Federal sozinho não vai empregar 14-15% da população activa dos EUA.

vamos ter que perguntar ao prof então...

é mesmo federal/state and local. tinhas razão.
« Última modificação: 2012-09-09 23:41:46 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #38 em: 2012-09-11 00:40:35 »
Getting Employment (And Other) Numbers
There were some odd reactions to my posts on the Rand Paul affair: a fair number of people wanted to question the numbers. So maybe I should just mention for newbies to this blog where to find such stuff.

Employment numbers ultimately come from the Bureau of Labor Statistics; by drilling down into the databases there you can get quite a lot of detail. However, the BLS site isn’t that user-friendly — not that it’s bad, but the graphics are pretty lame and even persuading it to provide data in a form that’s convenient for your spreadsheet takes a bit of work.

So when I can, I usually go to FRED, which has much (not all) of the same data in a beautifully convenient form and produces nifty graphs on demand. FRED also has lots of other data.

So if you think I’ve said something wrong, or alternatively if you want to explore some alternative, go to FRED before posting. It will make you a better person.

PS: One thing you’ll learn immediately if you look at these numbers is that government workers are overwhelmingly employed by state and local governments; the federal government accounts for less than 3 million of a total of more than 20 million. That’s because the federal government is an insurance company with an army, delivering relatively few services directly; it’s lower-level governments that employ the schoolteachers, police officers, firefighters, and prison guards that make up the bulk of public employment. So nobody who’s serious about this issue focuses on federal employment.
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Incognitus

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Re:Krugman et al
« Responder #39 em: 2012-09-11 00:47:09 »
Pois, mas o governo local nos EUA está sujeito à austeridade que o Krugman acha dispensável... daí a queda do emprego.
« Última modificação: 2012-09-11 00:47:29 por Incognitus »
"Nem tudo o que pode ser contado conta, e nem tudo o que conta pode ser contado.", Albert Einstein

Incognitus, www.thinkfn.com