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Autor Tópico: A minha nutricionista  (Lida 210267 vezes)

Zel

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #760 em: 2015-11-19 21:26:35 »
eu neste momento tenho uma dieta em que a gordura representa uns 70 a 80% das minhas calorias...
resultado? perdi 3 quilos no ultimo mes. e nem sequer estava pesado, pois ja fazia dieta low carb.
passei dos 72 para os 69 quilos e sempre sem fome, adeus "love handles"
Sem ser muito especifico, gostava que deixasses sugestões de menus para uma semana.
Ou alguns dias...

dieta cetogenica tem receitas pela net, procura por "keto recipes"
mas eu nao aconselho, faz antes paleo ou low carb
eu nao faco receitas complicadas, nao tenho paciencia.
mas na net ha imensas receitas

eu faco cetogenica porque eh anti-inflamatoria e tenho problemas geneticos de inflamacao geral
« Última modificação: 2015-11-19 21:27:11 por Camarada Neo-Liberal »

Lark

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #761 em: 2015-11-19 21:29:46 »

Ter o corpo em constante cetose e perder massa muscular não pode ser encarado como modo de vida.

Mas liberdade acima de tudo :)

dúvida: a cetose não é um estado metabólico derivado de uma dieta baixa em calorias? nomalmente baixa em carbo-hidratos ou mesmo jejum?
o organismo vai 'à despensa' buscar calorias, consumindo gorduras armazenadas.
no caso da ingestão regular de lípidos (em substituição de carbo-hidratos) o organismo também se orienta para a cetose? se os lípidos estão a ser fornecidos directamente, para quê ir à despensa?
atenção, esta dúvida é fruto de ignorância absoluta. não estou a afirmar nada, nem o seu contrário.
L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

kitano

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #762 em: 2015-11-19 21:36:49 »
Lark, o combustível metabólico pode variar a cada momento com o tipo de actividade. Tens que incluir essa variável.
"Como seria viver a vida que realmente quero?"

Lark

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #763 em: 2015-11-19 21:40:23 »
Lark, o combustível metabólico pode variar a cada momento com o tipo de actividade. Tens que incluir essa variável.

assumindo uma actividade regular. não um body builder mas também não um couch potato.
pelo que percebi a cetose é uma forma de metabolizar lípidos armazenados.
os lípidos ingeridos* são também metabolizados da mesma forma?

L

* sendo que 'os lípidos ingeridos' podem ser uma pipa deles, e provavelmente cada um terá a sua forma específica de ser metabolizado.
mas genericamente: qual é a diferença entre ir à despensa (metabolizar gordura armazenada) e ir ao mercado - metabolizar a gordura que se está a ingerir nos alimentos, na hora?
« Última modificação: 2015-11-19 21:44:05 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Zel

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #764 em: 2015-11-19 21:42:16 »

Ter o corpo em constante cetose e perder massa muscular não pode ser encarado como modo de vida.

Mas liberdade acima de tudo :)

dúvida: a cetose não é um estado metabólico derivado de uma dieta baixa em calorias? nomalmente baixa em carbo-hidratos ou mesmo jejum?
o organismo vai 'à despensa' buscar calorias, consumindo gorduras armazenadas.
no caso da ingestão regular de lípidos (em substituição de carbo-hidratos) o organismo também se orienta para a cetose? se os lípidos estão a ser fornecidos directamente, para quê ir à despensa?
atenção, esta dúvida é fruto de ignorância absoluta. não estou a afirmar nada, nem o seu contrário.
L

nao tem a ver com baixas calorias mas sim baixo teor de hidratos de carbono
como tal o organismo passa a usar a gordura como combustivel, da-se uma alteracao metabolica e passas a produzir cetonas
« Última modificação: 2015-11-19 21:44:58 por Camarada Neo-Liberal »

kitano

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #765 em: 2015-11-19 22:20:44 »
Lark a produção de corpos cetonicos para combustível metabólico é um mecanismo de reserva/emergência, na ausência de glicose e reservas de glicogenio para alimentar o cérebro.
(A produção em excesso aumenta a acidose)
"Como seria viver a vida que realmente quero?"

Zel

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #766 em: 2015-11-19 22:33:31 »
Lark a produção de corpos cetonicos para combustível metabólico é um mecanismo de reserva/emergência, na ausência de glicose e reservas de glicogenio para alimentar o cérebro.
(A produção em excesso aumenta a acidose)

nao eh verdade que seja de emergencia, isso eh uma interpretacao errada do papel do estado cetogenico

e tb nao eh verdade que aumenta a acidez, estas a falar da ketoacidosis nao eh?
« Última modificação: 2015-11-19 22:34:12 por Camarada Neo-Liberal »

Zel

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #767 em: 2015-11-19 22:40:38 »
existe uma ideologia dominante na nutricao que nao tem nada a ver com ciencia nem factos e que basicamente defende que comer carne tem de ser mau para a saude
isto tem a ver com a vontade de muita gente de acreditar que se algo mata animais tem de ser mau

depois inventam factos pseudo-cientificos para racionalizarem a sua ideologia.
mas nos fomos feitos para comer carne, montes de carne. MONTES.

ja os hidratos... sao uma novidade dietetica recente nas quantidades que ingerimos e rebetam com o metabolismo
mas como eh uma morte vegetariana esta tudo bem !  :P


Messiah

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #768 em: 2015-11-21 15:25:43 »
Cetose não tem a ver com calorias mas sim ausência de hidratos. Geralmente consumo de hidratos até 50 gramas põe te em estado de Cetose onde as gorduras são usadas como combustível sejam as ingeridas ou armazenadas.  Para ir às armazenadas aí sim eh uma questão de calorias... Se tiveres em défice tens de ir buscar a qualquer lado... 

Lark

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #769 em: 2015-11-21 17:35:47 »
Cetose não tem a ver com calorias mas sim ausência de hidratos. Geralmente consumo de hidratos até 50 gramas põe te em estado de Cetose onde as gorduras são usadas como combustível sejam as ingeridas ou armazenadas.  Para ir às armazenadas aí sim eh uma questão de calorias... Se tiveres em défice tens de ir buscar a qualquer lado...

ok. percebeste a pergunta. e eu fiquei a perceber o mecanismo. thx.

L
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #770 em: 2015-11-21 18:24:27 »
Cetose não tem a ver com calorias mas sim ausência de hidratos. Geralmente consumo de hidratos até 50 gramas põe te em estado de Cetose onde as gorduras são usadas como combustível sejam as ingeridas ou armazenadas.  Para ir às armazenadas aí sim eh uma questão de calorias... Se tiveres em défice tens de ir buscar a qualquer lado...

ok. percebeste a pergunta. e eu fiquei a perceber o mecanismo. thx.

L

neste momento, a minha dúvida principal é: qual é o problema de se viver num estado de cetose permanente?
há populações que vivem assim e assinalavelmente sem problemas maiores de saúde.
os esquimós e outras populações árticas - os saami e algumas populações siberianas - vivem à base de dietas sem hidratos de carbono.
não existem legumes ou tubérculos no ártico. a base da alimentação é peixe e foca - esquimós - e carne e leite de rena - saami e siberianos.

outra população que prescinde de hidratos de carbono - embora por motivos culturais - são os pastores masai. consideram os vegetais alimento para o gado.
o alimento deles é leite de vaca - litros diariamente - e carne de vaca.

qualquer destas populações, nomeadamente os inuit (esquimós) são particularmente conhecidas por não apresentarem quaisquer desvantagens normalmente associadas com o tipo de alimentação que seguem: proteínas e lípidos com ausência praticamente total de hidratos de carbono.

L
« Última modificação: 2015-11-21 18:25:16 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #771 em: 2015-11-22 01:26:36 »
The Maasai keep healthy despite a high-fat diet

The Maasai in East Africa consume a high-fat diet, but they don’t seem to suffer from lifestyle diseases. Scientists have now discovered that the Maasai move with a surprisingly low intensity.

The Maasai are a very special people who live primarily from farming and livestock activities in Kenya and Tanzania. They have mystified researchers for years.

To a large extent, the Maasai live on the milk from their cattle, which means their diet is as full of fats as the diet of people living in the West. Unlike Westerners, however, the Maasai do not have many problems related to lifestyle diseases.

Health researchers around the world have therefore been greatly interested in these East Africans since cardio-vascular and other lifestyle diseases started to become a great problem in the west in the 1960s and 1970s.

To date, scientists have only studied the Maasai’s physical activities using questionnaires.

But now Danish researchers are the first to have taken objective measurements of the level of physical activities of the Maasai.

Citar
Perhaps genetic development means they have the ability to tolerate large quantities of saturated fatty acids.
Dirk Lund Christensen


The Maasai don’t run much

Surprisingly, the measurements show that the good health of the Maasai is not due to intense physical activity all day long. It seems that moderate but constant physical activity explains the health difference between them and Westerners.

“The Maasai walk a great deal,” says Dirk Lund Christensen, an associate professor at the University of Copenhagen’s Department of International Health, Immunology and Microbiology, and the lead author of the study.

“Earlier studies from the 1960s and 1970s concluded that the Maasai were 'very active', in the way it was interpreted, they generated the false consumption that the Maasai displayed an athlete level of physical activity. From our objective measurements we can now see that their daily physical activity does not equal that of athletes. Most of their everyday physical activity is in the form of walking; very little time is spent running, which may not correspond to most people’s image of the Maasai.”

Measurements are much more reliable and credible than questionnaires, as there is a risk that people exaggerate or understate the true situation when answering questions about physical activity – especially men tend to exaggerate their physical activity level.

Facts
Scientists are interested in the diet and the level of physical activity of indigenous peoples such as the Inuit and the Maasai because these populations have a far more uniform lifestyle than Westerners do.
In the West, for instance, some people are vegetarians, some smoke and others – but not all – exercise, making the lifestyle of Westerners more complex.
Scientists can conduct natural studies and experiments with people who live more remotely. In urban areas across the world, however, scientists typically conduct laboratory studies and experiments to codify and measure people’s lifestyle.


The Maasai move much more than we do

The researchers asked 370 Maasai to carry a little sensor that measured the pulse and body movements of the wearer.
The device, developed at Cambridge University, has the advantage that it weighs only eight grams, thus remaining without effect on the level of physical activity.

The Maasai taking part in the study were sent home with the device in place and were asked to live as normal for five days.
Using the device, the scientists registered the wearers’ activity in kilojoules per kilo of body weight per day (kJ/kg/d).

“On average, the Maasai move 75 percent more than we do in the West,” says Christensen. “Our activity level is about 44 kJ/kg/d, while for Maasai women the figure is 75 kJ/kg/d and for Maasai men it is 78 kJ/kg/d.”

The measurements also showed that while the Maasai move considerably, the intensity of their movements is low. This was furthermore supported by another measurement in which the scientists assessed the Maasai’s maximum oxygen intake (cardio-respiratory fitness or VO2 max) by using a step test. This way, they registered moderate VO2 max figures on average.

Facts
The Maasai’s lifestyle was compared with the lifestyles of the Luo and Kamba, who also live in Kenya.
They were selected because they come from three lifestyle groups – agro-pastoralists (agriculture and livestock) (Maasai), fishing and farming (Luo) and farming (Kamba) – which taken as a whole represent the lifestyle of the majority of Kenyans.


Fat Maasai are also healthy

The result is interesting, as the constant walking activity of the Maasai can contribute to their healthy condition despite their high-fat diet, says Christensen.

Through their clinical and biochemical measurements of the Maasai, the researchers found that:
8.7 percent of the study’s Maasai over the age of 18 years had high blood pressure. Africans are generally predisposed to high blood pressure, and town- or city-dwellers are most affected, with as many as 20 percent of them having high blood pressure, according to Christensen.

High cholesterol values were found in 3 percent of the studied Maasai over the age of 18, which Christensen says is a low figure when their high-fat diet is taken into consideration.

A study of overweight Maasai (with a BMI over 25) showed that they had a normal, healthy level of insulin. Few overweight Maasai showed signs of having moved into the pre-diabetes stage.

Some of the Maasai have too much abdominal fat. Ultrasound scanning showed that the Maasai have a great amount of fat around their inner organs. Usually an important marker of cardio-vascular diseases, this normally unhealthy fat distribution seems to have no real negative impact for the Maasai.

Genetic development may protect the Maasai

However, it is far from certain that an active life of herding cattle can explain why the Maasai are not subjected to lifestyle diseases.

“There may be something else giving them protection,” says Christensen. “Perhaps genetic development means that they have the ability to tolerate large quantities of saturated fatty acids. The explanation may also be that we have yet to see the consequences of a change in lifestyle among the Maasai in recent years, perhaps leading to increasing degrees of overweight in the population, and the development of cardio-vascular disease on average 10-15 years later.”

Nevertheless as the Maasai have grown in number, and can no longer produce enough food for their own consumption in their traditional ways, they have been forced to include more and more foods from other sources in their diet, such as corn and millet. This means the Maasai’s diet is now far richer in carbohydrates than before.

Facts
The Maasai’s diet includes herbs and bark, and they consume a certain amount of fermented milk.
The fermentation process may possibly change the biochemical composition of the milk, so that it becomes less harmful with a high level of consumption.
Until now, the Maasai’s diet has primarily been based on milk from their cattle.


Seasons important for the Maasai’s lifestyle
In addition, the study itself has limitations.

“Perhaps the Maasai’s physical activity and diet would have been different had we visited them at a different time of year,” says Christensen. “They have dry and wet seasons. Their cows produce less milk in the dry season, so the Maasai consume less milk during this period. With more visits we could have taken seasonal variations into account.”

Throughout the year the Maasai also have a number of ritual celebrations as part of which they engage in high intensity jumping during dancing. They also consume a lot of meat at these celebrations, although meat does not traditionally dominate their diet. However, there were no Maasai celebrations while the scientists were in Kenya for their study.

Christensen wants to return to Kenya with his colleagues to study the Maasai’s physical activity and diet habits during all four seasons to define a more complete and nuanced picture of the Maasai’s lifestyle.

fonte
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #772 em: 2015-11-22 01:36:24 »
Milk, meat and blood: how diet drives natural selection in the Maasai

The Maasai and their Diet

The Maasai are a pastoralist tribe living in Kenya and Northern Tanzania. Their traditional diet consists almost entirely of milk, meat, and blood. Two thirds of their calories come from fat, and they consume 600 – 2000 mg of cholesterol  a day. To put that number in perspective, the American Heart Association recommends consuming under 300 mg of cholesterol a day. In spite of a high fat, high cholesterol diet, the Maasai have low rates of diseases typically associated with such diets. They tend to have low blood pressure, their overall cholesterol levels are low, they have low incidences of cholesterol gallstones, as well as low rates of coronary artery diseases such as atherosclerosis.

Even more remarkable are the results of a 1971 study by Taylor and Ho. Two groups of Maasai were fed a controlled diet for 8 weeks. One group – the control group – was given food rich in calories. The other group had the same diet, but with an additional 2 grams of cholesterol per day. Both diets contained small amounts of a radioactive tracer (carbon 14). (You’d never get approval for a study like this today, and for good reason.) By monitoring blood and fecal samples, the scientists discovered that the two groups had basically identical levels of total cholesterol in their blood. In spite of consuming a large dose of cholesterol, these individuals had the same cholesterol levels as the control group.

Here is how the authors concluded their study:

This led us to believe, but without direct proof, that the Masai have some basically different genetic traits that result in their having superior biologic mechanisms for protection from hypercholesteremia

Motivated by these results, we set out to identify genes under selection in the Maasai as a result of these unusual dietary pressures. We scanned the genome looking for genetic signatures of natural selection at work.

The Data
Our data comes from the International HapMap Project, a collaborative experimental effort to study the genetic diversity in humans. The HapMap Project has collected DNA from groups of people from genetically diverse human populations with ancestry in Africa, Asia and Europe. Their anonymized data is publicly available for free. One of the HapMap populations is a group of Maasai from Kinyawa, Kenya  (n=156), and this is the population that we focus on.

HapMap does not sequence full genomes, as this would have been prohibitively expensive at the time of data collection. Instead, they employ a shortcut. If you take my DNA sequence and line it up against yours, the two sequences will be about 99.9% similar. But every once in a thousand letters, or so, there will be a difference. You may have an A where I have a C. The HapMap group measures the DNA sequence at these very locations, where humans are known to vary from each other. In essence, they’re sampling the genome, looking only at sites where we expect to see variation. In the jargon of the field, this method is called looking for Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms, or SNPs (pronounced snips).

Hunting for signatures of selection in genetic data
Once you have the data, what can you do with it? We wanted to detect signs of natural selection. The basic idea behind detecting selection in genomic data is quite simple, and it has to do with sex. Every sperm or egg cell that you produce contains a single genome, which is formed by shuffling together the two sets of genomes that you inherited from your parents. Viewed this way, the role of sex is to shuffle together the genomes in a population into new combinations. If you compare the DNA sequences of a group of people, you will see signs of this shuffling.

The effect of sex is to shuffle genomes, in a process known as genetic recombination.
Now lets add natural selection to the mix. What happens if an individual is born with a new mutation that benefits their survival? Over time, you’d expect to see this mutation rise in frequency. Descendants of this individual will be over-represented in the population, as the fraction of people with this beneficial mutation goes up. In essence, the fingerprint of such selection is a reduction of genomic diversity. (I’m describing a particular model of selection here, known as positive natural selection. Some other types of selection can increase diversity, such as the selection on viruses to evade recognition by their host’s immune system.)

A new beneficial mutation arises in an individual (shown in red). It will rise in frequency in the population, leading to a characteristic reduction in diversity. Over time, genetic recombination and new mutations will build back the diversity, and the signal is lost.

Eventually, new mutations will creep in again, and generations of sexual reproduction would build back the diversity. However, if the loss of diversity was sudden enough (strong selection) and not too long ago, you can still detect it today. There are statistical tests (Fst, iHS, XP-EHH) that can formally detect if the reduction in diversity at a given region is sufficient to infer selection. Sabeti et al have a nice review paper that discusses the different methods available to detect selection using genomic data.

Our Results
We used three different methods to detect selection, and our top candidate regions under selection are considered significant by at least two of the methods.

The strongest signal of selection, detected by all 3 methods, was a region on Chromosome 2 containing the Lactase gene (LCT), responsible for breaking down the lactose present in milk. Mutations in a neighboring gene in the cluster, MCM6, are associated with the ability to digest lactose in adulthood.

The strongest signal of selection was a region on Chromosome 2 that contained the LCT gene producing lactase, the enzyme that breaks down the lactose in milk. Interestingly, the default state in all adult mammals is to stop producing lactase in adulthood – our ancestors were all ‘lactose intolerant’. This makes sense from an evolutionary point of view, it forces children to wean from milk, and frees up the mothers resources. It turns out that different sets of mutations arose that gave European and African pastoralists the ability to digest milk. Those of us whose ancestors weren’t pastoralists still have trouble digesting milk.

This is a classic example of a selective sweep – a mutation confers an advantage (the ability to digest milk), and then sweeps through a population like wildfire. This result has been previously described in European populations, and also in African populations (including the Maasai) by Sarah Tishkoff and collaborators. Given that the Maasai consume large amounts of milk, it is not surprising that we see a very strong signal at this locus. We sequenced DNA in this region to confirm this result and, sure enough, we found that one of the lactase persistence conferring mutations identified by Tishkoff was present in the HapMap Maasai samples.

Two of the tests for selection that we used require that you make comparisons with another population. We chose the Luhya of Kenya as a our reference population. Among all the protein-altering mutations present in the data, the one that showed the largest population difference between the Maasai and Luhya (as measured by Fst) sits in the gene for a fatty acid binding protein FABP1. This protein is expressed in the liver, and the variant that occurs at higher frequency in the Maasai is associated with a lowering of cholesterol levels in Northern German women (n = 826) and in French Canadian men consuming a high fat diet (n = 623). Furthermore, studies in mice fed a high fat, high cholesterol diet showed that deactivating the FABP1 protein leads to protection against obesity, and lower levels of triglycerides in the liver, when compared to normal mice on an identical diet. These results suggest that this protein plays a role in regulating lipid homeostasis, and its selection in the Maasai may be diet-related.

On Chromosome 7, two of the methods we used to detect selection identified a cluster of genes that fall in the Cytochrome P450 Subfamily 3A (CYP3A). This family of genes is involved in drug metabolism, in oxidizing fatty acids, and in synthesizing steroids from cholesterol.

What’s next?
Computational methods can only take you so far. We have identified genes in candidate regions undergoing positive natural selection in the Maasai, possibly arising due to their unusual diet. But the case for selection can only be definitively made with an experimental study targeted to address the role of these genes in maintaining cholesterol homeostasis. We’re hoping to collaborate with experimental biologists to take these hypotheses forward and investigate their role in the evolutionary history of the Maasai.

So head over to PLOS, check out the paper, and let us know what you think.

wired
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #773 em: 2015-11-22 01:44:18 »
O outro ponto de vista:


Masai and Inuit High-Protein Diets: A Closer Look

Have you heard of the Masai and the Inuit having very low rates of chronic disease on entirely animal-food diets? If you have, chances are that you haven’t heard the whole story. There has been some important information missing in oft-repeated mantra of the exceptional health of the Inuit and the Masai, and it is worth revisiting the evidence.

The Masai

The traditional Masai culture is known as a culture where the men exclusively consume meat, milk, and blood for decades of their life and yet have no heart disease. The alleged dietary pattern could not be more opposite of the Papua New Guinea, rural Chinese, and Okinawan populations. This tribal culture is often referenced as proof that a low-carbohydrate, high animal diet may be healthiest, or at least that it isn’t heart-damaging.

Should we re-evaluate our observation linking plant-rich diets with heart disease prevention?

In 1964, George Mann and collaborating researchers published a paper in the Journal of Atherosclerosis Research documenting a lack of heart disease in Masai men, at least as assessed by risk factors, physical exams, and EKG’s. Cholesterol levels were low (average total cholesterol of 130 in men aged 25 to 55), high blood pressure was uncommon, and they were very slim. The average BMI was about 20, which is the lower limit of the “healthy range” by current US standards.

The population they studied was limited by age. About 60% of the men were under 44 and only three out of 400 men were over 55 years old. They were further limited by their ability to detect heart disease by using just physical exam and EKG. As any physician can attest: a patient can have a normal EKG and physical exam and still might drop dead a week later of a heart attack related to atherosclerosis that has been progressing for decades. But even with these basic methods, a small percentage of people had been found to have detectable heart disease in a comparable US population, so the fact that there weren’t even four or five men with detectable signs was impressive. Several indications supported the notion that these men were a population with very low to nonexistent premature heart disease. There were no clinical symptoms of heart disease in these young to middle aged men and their risk factors were excellent.

What was their diet? This was not measured. Researchers wrote:

“The accurate measurement of dietary intake of these people proved extraordinarily difficult. We were able to make only limited measurements. This difficulty is because of the erratic intake of food, there being no fixed meal patterns in the families, because there are no uniform units of measurement or utensil and because of the disruption of usual behavior in the presence of an observer.”

Instead, researchers measured nitrogen and creatinine output in the men’s urine to infer what the intake of protein was. This method suggested that the men consumed a lot of milk intake but gave only a most superficial, indirect indication of dietary intake.

Perhaps the best dietary survey done on Masai people is from the early 1980s, done by the International Livestock Centre of Africa[2]. This was at a time there had already been a dietary transition occurring among the Masai. Nonetheless, Masai women and children were found to consume large amounts of milk from their herd animals. Interestingly, they only consumed meat about 1-5 times per month. Again, the men’s intake was too difficult to accurately track but it seemed that they had more access to meat.

In addition, in this pastoral population, physical activity is a major way of life. If inactive Americans wanted to get the same amount of exercise, they would have to walk an additional 19km (almost 12 miles) per day(cited in 3). Because of the enormous energy expenditure and the relative resource limitations, the 1982-83 survey estimated that women and children were only consuming 50-70% of their “estimated average energy requirement”[2]. That is quite a calorie deficit, accounting for the thinness in the population.

So the diet, when measured, was not as meaty and bloody as the popular belief dictated, though it was very rich in milk. They consumed maize in the early 1980s, but this may have been a recent addition to the diet. Further, there was extreme physical activity and relative calorie insufficiency. Is it possible that these factors contributed to health of the Masai?

And what about that previous, imperfect assessment of heart disease? Dr. Mann, who published some of the early research, did an autopsy study of 50 Masai men and found that they had extensive atherosclerosis. They had disease (coronary intimal thickening) on par with older American men. Over 80% of the men over age 40 had severe fibrosis in their aorta, the main blood vessel from the heart that supplies the rest of the body with blood. Yet there were no heart attacks shown on autopsy and these men still had functional heart vessels without blockages because their vessels had become larger. Researchers thought this might have been related to their rather extreme daily physical activity.

We’re left with a bit of a confusing picture, made murky by a lack of data. We don’t have mortality or illness statistics but have conflicting clinical and pathological reports. We don’t have good dietary data. Impressions of high animal food intake, primarily in the form of milk intake, have been supported, but blood and meat intake may have been misconstrued. Making things more complicated, these were people who may have been in relative calorie deficiency because of extreme daily physical activity. They may have been experiencing intermittent fasting.

What questions can we generate from these observations? Is any calorie a healthy calorie when you are operating at significant energy deficits? Can extreme daily activity overcome poor diet? Is intermittent fasting a factor in health? How is it that they had such extensive blood vessel disease without clinical signs? Was it due to relative lack of older study participants? Was our bias to promote a high animal food diet simply unsupported by the data? Does our potential bias to blame animal foods for heart disease need to be questioned?

Let’s consider the other outlier, a group often mentioned in popular press to prove that high animal diets, or low carbohydrate diets, are healthy.

The Inuit

Well known to consume significant amounts of whale and seal meat frequently, the Inuit are commonly construed to be heart disease-free. Is this another outlier to much of the other observational research finding low processed food, low animal, high plant diets to be associated with low heart disease death rates?

Some small studies do show that the Inuit eat a relatively lower carbohydrate diet. One study in Greenland in 1976[4] found they consumed about 37% of calories from carbohydrate. Other surveys of native populations found them to consume anywhere from 8 to 53% carbohydrate, the 53% number being noted in populations in the late 1930s. 53%, by the way, is more than was found to be consumed in Denmark in 1972(cited in 4). Certainly significant amounts of bread and sugar were consumed as long ago as 40-50 years ago, at least as documented by trading post activity[4].

What about their risk of heart disease? It turns out to be a myth so often repeated it just became an unsupported truth. A 2003 paper[5] published by a highly experienced, highly published scientist at the National Institute of Public Health in Greenland, written with his colleagues from Canada, documents many autopsy studies and clinical observations and studies proving that heart disease existed among the Inuit. In fact, in 1940 the “father of epidemiology” in Greenland, Bertelsen, noted heart disease to be quite common, perhaps even more interesting given the young age of the population. He based this on clinical experience and medical officer reports going back for many decades(cited in 5). All told, the 2003 paper found “the hypothesis that mortality from ischemic heart disease is low among the Inuit compared with western populations insufficiently founded.” Further, “…a general statement that mortality from cardiovascular disease is high among the Inuit seems more warranted than the opposite.”[5]

In addition, it has been found that bone health among the Inuit was quite bad. A 1974 study[6] found, “Aging bone loss, which occurs in many populations, has an earlier onset and greater intensity in the Eskimos. Nutrition factors of high protein, high nitrogen, high phosphorus, and low calcium intakes may be implicated.”

What do you make of these outliers? Are they outliers at all? There are valuable lessons to be learned from these indigenous groups, but what are the lessons? How do these observations change your beliefs and assumptions?

I find that this research at best raises more questions than it answers. It is remarkable to me that the legend of coronary health in the Inuit and Masai has been so widely repeated and accepted as evidence that the western all-meat diet is a good idea. Then again, this is further affirmation that we love to hear good things about our bad habits.

fonte
« Última modificação: 2015-11-22 01:44:51 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lark

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #774 em: 2015-11-22 02:07:32 »
The Secret To The Inuit High-Fat Diet May Be Good Genes

We talk a lot on The Salt about the Mediterranean diet, which is rich in nuts, olive oil, fish, fruits and vegetables. Scientists believe it's one of the world's healthiest patterns of eating, and can protect against a lot of chronic diseases.

In the Arctic, the typical meal looks very different. There, a traditional plate would have some fatty marine animal like seal or whale and not much else – fruits and vegetables are hard to come by in the harsh climate.

And yet despite the fact that the high-fat Arctic diet may sound like a heart attack waiting to happen, the Inuit tend to have low rates of heart disease and diabetes.

On the left, olive oil, which is low in saturated fat and high in monounsaturated fat, which may lower bad cholesterol levels. On the right, coconut oil, which is 90 percent saturated fat and may raise bad cholesterol levels.

Researchers thought maybe it was the omega-3 fatty acids in the meat and blubber that might be protective. But a new study on Inuit in Greenland suggests that Arctic peoples evolved certain genetic adaptations that allow them to consume much higher amounts of fat than most other people around the world, according a team of researchers reporting Thursday in the journal Science.

Computational biologist Rasmus Nielsen at the University of California, Berkeley lead the research, and began by looking for genetic differences between a 191 Inuit in Greenland, 60 Europeans, and 44 ethnic Chinese. "When we did that, it pointed directly to one group of genes where we had an extremely strong signal," Nielsen says. "They regulate how much of these omega-3s and omega-6s you make yourself naturally."

Nearly all of the Inuit in Nielsen's study had variances in these genes that researchers think slow down the body's natural production of omega-3 and omega-6 fats. "We saw that the Inuit have such a high diet of omega-3s, so they produce much less of it themselves," Nielsen says. And the genes seem to play a role in lowering levels of LDL cholesterol, the bad kind that's linked to heart disease. Only about 3 percent of Europeans and 15 percent of Chinese had the same genetic markers, the team writes.

Nielsen thinks these genes helped Inuit ancestors survive in the brutal cold near the North Pole and stay healthy on a diet of almost exclusively fat and protein. And he thinks the genes are mostly unique to humans living in this environment.

But there's a lot of uncertainty about the genes. "The regulation of fats in your body is a really complex network. You turn one knob, and it just changes everything everywhere else," Nielsen says. So, he notes, the full implication of having these mutations still isn't well understood.

That's part of the reason why some researchers aren't completely blown away by the study. Whether or not these genes have helped Inuit stay slim on a high-fat diet is still unclear, says Joel Hirschhorn, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School. "They're taking a leap of faith," he says.

The genes in question seem to influence so many different processes in the body that pinpointing their effect is difficult, he says. "It's harder to go beyond the known biology of these genes and make connections to weight."

On top of that, Hirschhorn thinks there could be reasons other than diet for why Inuit have these mutations. "There are lots of things about the lifestyle in Greenland that are different and could lead to these adaptations," he says.

Even so, Hirschhorn says he's excited about the paper because "it's a clear example of human evolution." Like the genes that have allowed groups that practice dairying to tolerate lactose in milk, it's another example of human adaptations to different environments or diets, says Sarah Tishkoff, a geneticist at the University of Pennsylvania.

Nowadays, very few Greenlanders still eat a completely traditional diet. And the move away from the high-fat, high-protein diet may be leading to the rising rate of diabetes. "If they switch to a modern diet that's high in carbohydrates, particularly simple ones like glucose and sugar, then they tend to be quite unhealthy," Nielsen says.

That suggests that understanding these adaptations could eventually lead to specialized diets for each person. "We know now that the Inuit adapted to a very specific diet. That may be true for other populations as well," he says.

In other words: The answer to how harmful a high-fat diet is for you could depend on your genomics.

npr
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
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If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
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So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #775 em: 2015-11-22 02:29:45 »
o que eu tiro disto:

a espécie humana é extraordinariamente adaptável.
Uma das adaptações mais relevantes será concerteza a capacidade de retirar sustento das fontes de calorias disponíveis no seu meio ambiente.
Somos omnívoros, podemos consumir um leque muito vasto de alimentos.
Quando os alimentos são limitados, adaptamo-nos. Os esquimós adaptaram-se a carne de foca e baleia. Estupidamente gordurosa.
Os masai a quantidade brutais de leite - outra das adaptações importantes; a capacidade de digerir leite ao longo da vida. Não me parece que os masai comam muita carne; seria estar a matar a galinha dos ovos de ouro - no caso a vaca leiteira.
talvez matem um bezerro de vez em quando, em dias de festa. mas a quantidade de leite inteiro que bebem é prodigiosa. para além da adaptação que lhe permite beber leite, disfrutam também de uma adaptação que lhes regula o colesterol e a metabolização de lípidos.

A minha opinião sobre o consumo de carne e gordura: se pretendes comer muita carne e gordura, é melhor que tenhas o genoma de um inuit ou de um masai.
Caso contrário...RIP talvez um pouco cedo demais.

L
« Última modificação: 2015-11-22 02:57:54 por Lark »
Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Battle.
Ian Mclaren
------------------------------
If you have more than you need, build a longer table rather than a taller fence.
l6l803399
-------------------------------------------
So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Zel

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #776 em: 2015-11-22 03:50:44 »
o que eu tiro disto:

a espécie humana é extraordinariamente adaptável.
Uma das adaptações mais relevantes será concerteza a capacidade de retirar sustento das fontes de calorias disponíveis no seu meio ambiente.
Somos omnívoros, podemos consumir um leque muito vasto de alimentos.
Quando os alimentos são limitados, adaptamo-nos. Os esquimós adaptaram-se a carne de foca e baleia. Estupidamente gordurosa.
Os masai a quantidade brutais de leite - outra das adaptações importantes; a capacidade de digerir leite ao longo da vida. Não me parece que os masai comam muita carne; seria estar a matar a galinha dos ovos de ouro - no caso a vaca leiteira.
talvez matem um bezerro de vez em quando, em dias de festa. mas a quantidade de leite inteiro que bebem é prodigiosa. para além da adaptação que lhe permite beber leite, disfrutam também de uma adaptação que lhes regula o colesterol e a metabolização de lípidos.

A minha opinião sobre o consumo de carne e gordura: se pretendes comer muita carne e gordura, é melhor que tenhas o genoma de um inuit ou de um masai.
Caso contrário...RIP talvez um pouco cedo demais.

L

1-com a tua nova crenca nas diferencas geneticas e na adaptabilidade rapida da especie humana falta pouco para acreditares em racas e que uns sao mais inteligentes que outros
qual eh a diferenca afinal entre inteligencia e dieta, sao tudo adaptacoes ao meio ambiente. para a natureza nao ha ideologia e nao ha destincao entre uma adaptacao ao leite de vaca ou
outras mais politicamente sensiveis.

2-eh certo que nem todos foram feitos para ter a mesma dieta. algumas pessoas dao-se muito bem com uma dieta cetogenica e outras nao. mas a precupacao do leigos como tu eh sempre
em duvidar duma dieta de muita carne sem nunca duvidar duma dieta com tantos hidratos. partem do principio que tal dieta eh normal e a da carne anormal. e no entanto nao eh normal, eh algo
recente e que na maioria das pessoas rebenta-lhes com o sistema hormonal.
« Última modificação: 2015-11-22 08:11:38 por Camarada Neo-Liberal »

Zel

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #777 em: 2015-11-26 01:48:26 »
nao sei se sabem mas os pseudo estudos sobre a carne normalmente tem o problema de que as pessoas que sao vegetarianas correlacionam tb com os nao fumadores e pessoas que praticam desporto (mais preocupados com a saude)

isto da cabo dos resultados dos estudos... excepto quando o estudo tira a conclusao contraria, nesse caso reforca o estudo... curtam esta:
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 vegetarians—they are more physically active, smoke less tobacco, and drink less alcohol. They also are more likely to have a higher socioeconomic status and a lower body mass index (BMI).

But the study says the benefits begin and end there.

Vegetarians in the Austrian Health Interview Survey were:

Twice as likely to suffer from allergies, and
Had a 50 percent greater risk of heart attacks and cancer.
“Found to be in a poorer state of health compared to other dietary groups,” reporting higher incidence of chronic disease, impairment from disorders, and more anxiety and depression.

The study abstract concluded:

 “Our study has shown that Austrian adults who consume a vegetarian diet are less healthy (in terms of cancer, allergies, and mental health disorders), have a lower quality of life, and also require more medical treatment,” wrote the study authors. “Therefore, a continued strong public health program for Austria is required in order to reduce the health risk due to nutritional factors.”

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0088278&representation=PDF

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entao a dieta vegetariana da cancro e ataques cardiacos? mas nao era a carne que fazia isso?
« Última modificação: 2015-11-26 01:55:18 por Camarada Neo-Liberal »

Zel

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Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #778 em: 2015-11-26 01:57:03 »
e o steve jobs... o amigo da fruta saudavel morreu do que? ja nao me lembro  :P

Zel

  • Visitante
Re: A minha nutricionista
« Responder #779 em: 2015-12-01 00:57:43 »
o maior estudo de sempre sobre o consumo de carne, com meio milhao de pessoas

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/63

In the EPIC cohort, a high consumption of processed meat was related to moderately higher all-cause mortality. After correction for measurement error, red meat intake was no longer associated with mortality, and there was no association with the consumption of poultry. Processed meat consumption was associated with increased risk of death from cardiovascular diseases and cancer.

There was no statistically significant association of red meat consumption with risk of cancer or cardiovascular mortality.

na realiadde nas conclusoes ate falam do consumo de carne melhorar a saude
ja carne processada faz mal (nada de novo ai, creio)

WHO e NUTRICAO MODERNA = IDEOLOGIA VEGERARIANA = FRAUDE
« Última modificação: 2015-12-01 00:59:28 por Camarada Neo-Liberal »